|
Kurieg posted:"Sire you can't have a retainer following you around constantly with a boombox." Honestly I would run this NPC. ...though the opening to that theme still sounds like Arab Money to me a lot.
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 23:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 14:20 |
|
|
In the history of the WoD, there has to be at least one Elder who woke up, saw JoJo, and said 'This. This is what I should be doing.' instead of reading Dracula or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 23:35
|
|
|
I liked the Lumley Necroscope/Wamphiri books! They're pure pulp and so goddamn over the top. Also I was a teenager when I read them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Five Eyes posted:I'd vote Revised. While the Revised core has some (well, many) issues, the format for the splat descriptions is the one I'd consider the most valuable, and Revised has the most broad takes on each of the factions, and the splatbooks are for the most part pretty solid. The big hiccup here is that the Revised core won't really introduce you to the Technocratic conventions, so there may be some supplementary reading if that's a direction you want to go in. For my money, there are a few excellent books for the Traditions in Revised, although that quality takes a super sharp nosedive the more the Revised splatbooks go on. Hope your favorite Trad came early in the alphabet!
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 23:50
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:For my money, there are a few excellent books for the Traditions in Revised, although that quality takes a super sharp nosedive the more the Revised splatbooks go on. Hope your favorite Trad came early in the alphabet! You say that as if a good take on the Dreamspeakers is possible.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2018 23:59
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:You say that as if a good take on the Dreamspeakers is possible. I'd be willing to call Dreamspeakers Revised "pretty okay," although if you're inclined to regard the concept as a poison that can't be overcome you might have to dial that back to "well, they did the best they could." REALLY GREAT, LIKE SUPER GREAT: Euthanatos (possibly the best splatbook they ever did) Sons of Ether (my personal favorite) Akashic Brotherhood PRETTY GOOD UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES: Dreamspeakers Celestial Chorus FAIRLY BLAND AND UNCHALLENGING: Order of Hermes Cult of Ecstasy SERIOUSLY CONSIDER GNAWING OFF YOUR OWN LEG RATHER THAN READING: Virtual Adepts Verbena Hollow Ones
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 00:11
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:SERIOUSLY CONSIDER GNAWING OFF YOUR OWN LEG RATHER THAN READING:[/b] To be fair, whoever wrote this book, was presented with a very difficult task. It was very hard to present Hollow Ones in a way that makes them sympathetic, or even particularly interesting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 00:36
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:To be fair, whoever wrote this book, was presented with a very difficult task. It was very hard to present Hollow Ones in a way that makes them sympathetic, or even particularly interesting. "It's difficult to write sympathetically about these guys because they think they are the poo poo, but really they are just poo poo" is a surprisingly common WoD problem.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
Problem I always had with the Traditions is that several of them seem to have originated in 1st edition as a means of letting you play someone who isn't really a wizard, at least aesthetically speaking - you have your VR hackers, your old-timey mad scientists, you even have the original illustration for the Akashic Brotherhood depicting a martial arts dude. Vampire you don't get to opt out of being a vampire; werewolf you don't get to opt out of being a woofle. Mage you weirdly do get to opt out of being a wizard, or at least get the option to claim what you do isn't magic but forbidden super-science. In general, letting people get away with not really buying into the basic concept of the game is a poor move - which is why I much prefer Mage: the Awakening for the purposes of playing a game which actually focuses on mages.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 01:00
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:He considers Brian Lumley a hack whose additions to the Cthulhu Mythos are absolutely terrible. I mean, he's not wrong. Titus Crow is the worst loving garbage.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 03:10
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:I mean, he's not wrong. Titus Crow is the worst loving garbage. The direct ancestor of Daijuji Kurou.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 03:15
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:You say that as if a good take on the Dreamspeakers is possible. There's exceptions to every rule. Of course if the Rev splatbooks were graded on a curve, Verbena would tank it all to failing anyway. It's Revised Children of Gaia of the group.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 03:48
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Of course if the Rev splatbooks were graded on a curve, Verbena would tank it all to failing anyway. It's Revised Children of Gaia of the group. Honestly, all three of the ones I listed on the lowest tier are fabulously, spectacularly bad. I would have serious difficulty deciding which was worst.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 04:07
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Problem I always had with the Traditions is that several of them seem to have originated in 1st edition as a means of letting you play someone who isn't really a wizard, at least aesthetically speaking - you have your VR hackers, your old-timey mad scientists, you even have the original illustration for the Akashic Brotherhood depicting a martial arts dude. e: This was even true for the science dudes, I remember enjoying Guide to the Technocracy but they really had to Gish gallop past "yeah it actually makes no sense that your characters would be able to do more than slightly stretch the limits of the established equipment and routines in the field, but whatever, man, this is Mage."
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 06:17
|
|
|
Nessus posted:MTA in general had the problem of the core book more or less openly telling you that all of this was bullshit and your character was deluded, held back by her paradigm and so on. I remember one example of "A Verbena may just have no way to actually cast a Life effect without vulgar magick, in which case, welp, eat poo poo witch boy." I don't think any other splat pulled that particular rug out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 08:32
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Yeah, as much as the designers and fandom derided the whole "Purple Paradigm" thing, at the same time there's really no compelling in-setting reason why the Purple Paradigm isn't the logical conclusion of the setting's axioms. I've seen this phrase before, but never quite got it. What is the 'Purple Paradigm' besides a kind of uninteresting prog rock band name?
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:18
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:I've seen this phrase before, but never quite got it. What is the 'Purple Paradigm' besides a kind of uninteresting prog rock band name? 'My paradigm is I do magic by willpower and understanding of the
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:19
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:I've seen this phrase before, but never quite got it. What is the 'Purple Paradigm' besides a kind of uninteresting prog rock band name? It's named after the purple cover of the Mage: the Ascension book. It's the hypothetical magical "paradigm" described by knowing how the mechanics of spellcasting actually work in Ascension, and that it's all willworking through the force of belief based in progression of Arete and knowledge of nine Spheres, etc. The term is a criticism of the game because it points out that the game about subjective reality isn't really subjective, there is a paradigm that is demonstrably more accurate than the other paradigms, which is simultaneously the blandest paradigm with the least definition.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:24
|
|
|
If I recall there is a particular Arete level where you just get to transcend Paradigm anyway. It's been years but I seem to remember that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:30
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:If I recall there is a particular Arete level where you just get to transcend Paradigm anyway. It's been years but I seem to remember that. Really this is one of the very long list of reasons why Unknown Armies did the whole postmodern magic/subjective reality/everyone's take on magic is a little different thing way better than Ascension.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:35
|
|
|
There isn't actually a purple paradigm in-setting, but it is true that the closer your paradigm is to the theoretical purple paradigm, the better it is. The Sons of Ether and Void Engineers very nearly run on it, and have a much easier time justifying any given effect.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:37
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:If I recall there is a particular Arete level where you just get to transcend Paradigm anyway. It's been years but I seem to remember that. There's a point in Arete development where a mage no longer requires foci to do magic, which sometimes get taken as transcending paradigm. It depends on whether the person you're talking to considers "paradigm" to mean "how you do magic" (which is common in discussion - i.e. the Verbena paradigm is "you are a witch") or "how do you imagine the world works." The latter doesn't really care about foci.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 21:58
|
|
|
In fairness, if you're a Son of Ether that believes you need to have weird science devices to do all your poo poo, and suddenly don't need any weird science devices to do any of your poo poo, uh how does that not fundamentally shatter your worldview???
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:In fairness, if you're a Son of Ether that believes you need to have weird science devices to do all your poo poo, and suddenly don't need any weird science devices to do any of your poo poo, uh For me and my friends back when we cared about that kind of poo poo, we took the shedding of foci to mean that your worldview was gradually changing to exactly that. It's already a pretty shaky worldview to begin with since any mage can try really hard (spend a point of Willpower and face +3 difficulty) and cast a spell without a focus.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 22:08
|
|
|
I don't consider it a useful hypothetical, honestly. I think that being wedded to particular methods is too specific a detail for a "paradigm", which is more of an interpretive framework. The etherite already lived in a universe where people can do the same poo poo without apparati, and the etherite presumably has theories on how that works - psychic powers, upper-dimensional energies, whatever. Those explanations would be in accord with the Etherite's "scientistic" paradigm, so it's a small step from there to the etherite figuring out how to harness those forces themselves. When a Technocrat encounters a ghost, they don't decide that the technocratic model is wrong, they interpret new information in light of their existing model and find a way to talk about "ghosts" scientifically, right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 22:21
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:There isn't actually a purple paradigm in-setting, but it is true that the closer your paradigm is to the theoretical purple paradigm, the better it is. The Sons of Ether and Void Engineers very nearly run on it, and have a much easier time justifying any given effect.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 22:26
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:In fairness, if you're a Son of Ether that believes you need to have weird science devices to do all your poo poo, and suddenly don't need any weird science devices to do any of your poo poo, uh I'd guess that like all nerds with a shaky initial understanding of science eventually do, you just get deeply invested in a complete misunderstanding of quantum physics that "totally explains, like, everything".
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 22:42
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Except the purple paradigm pretty much clearly does have an in-setting reality because all uses of magic are adjudicated according to it. What I mean is that nobody actually has it as their personal paradigm.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 22:58
|
|
|
Five Eyes posted:I don't consider it a useful hypothetical, honestly. I think that being wedded to particular methods is too specific a detail for a "paradigm", which is more of an interpretive framework. That's always been my interpretation yes. Unfortunately once you allow a theory of, "He must be able to do this by harnessing N-Class energies from the world-brine using quantum uncertainty" you arrive at, "That guy can do basically what I can do but without all of the equipment", which is better, really, from what you can do. And if it's better, you're going to find a way to make it work. And now your paradigm has shifted toward, "magic works like it says in the book" with more adjectives attached.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 23:01
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:What I mean is that nobody actually has it as their personal paradigm. Right, but then once you get inter-tradition/convention meetings and activities going on, it seems like most people are at least in the broad strokes aware of the purple paradigm stuff. Part of that is probably the fundamental difficulty of the premise; it seems like the writers themselves often didn't know how the hell an etherite, hermetic mage, and iteration X cyborg were supposed to even all see themselves as the same basic "thing" without there being some understanding of the underlying paradigm of reality. Brucato's phobia towards including real traditions in the writing probably didn't help either; with so much vagueness about how each tradition understands the rules and structures of magic, its hard to understand how they can have a dialogue with one another across those lines, so the writing again often defaults to everyone sort of vaguely understanding that all of this is working on the same underlying premise. Which then leads to a lot of vague and inconsistent writing as to why personal paradigms are necessary in the first place. Honestly in practice, most groups I saw just ignored the personal paradigm stuff as a veneer, and never tried to engage how a guy who believed magic came as gifts from a spirit and a guy who believed in philogiston warping the nature of reality would actually work together.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 00:37
|
|
|
Post on how second edition Sin-Eater powers work. http://theonyxpath.com/the-doors-of-death-geist-the-sin-eaters/
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 01:02
|
|
|
Warthur posted:My impression in M20 is that Brucato really loving hates it when you go past your paradigm because if you stop believing in your magic it should stop working, Brucato is the opposite. The better you get at using the magic the less important the Foci of your paradigm are as you learn they don't actually matter (unless you're a Technocrat, who can never fully divest themselves of their Foci because they believe too hard in their paradigm). As you grow stronger in power, the closer you are to the Purple Paradigm of casting any spell through pure personal magical power. Under Brucato, it's also very transparent that it's all just chaos magic; all about swapping out your beliefs like they're Nintendo 64 cartridges so you can use whatever magical practices are convenient for you. You believe, therefore you can use magic, but the belief can be mercenary, inconsistent, and transient.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 01:06
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:In fairness, if you're a Son of Ether that believes you need to have weird science devices to do all your poo poo, and suddenly don't need any weird science devices to do any of your poo poo, uh And as I recall, in I think first edition, Hollow Ones actually used the Purple Paradigm. They didn't get the discount on one sphere that actual traditions did, but in exchange they just didn't need foci.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 01:28
|
|
|
nofather posted:Post on how second edition Sin-Eater powers work. quote:the Industrial Key didn’t really fit thematically
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 01:31
|
|
|
Edit: or I could have misread it because I am a derp.
Rubix Squid fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 02:34
|
|
|
Industrial was my jam in 1E, that'S sad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 04:20
|
|
|
I don't understand how you have dudes of nine different Paradigms meeting together, noticing that they can all do the same things via different ways, and not immediately set about trying to derive the Purple Paradigm. Your paradigm is how you think reality is arranged such that the things you do generate magical effects. As soon as you become aware that other mages exist and have their own paradigms that also work, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to not make the connection that your paradigm is incomplete as long as it doesn't explain what they're doing. This should have all happened hundreds if not thousands of years ago and basically Awakening is how things should've ended up loooooooong before the original 1990's setting. e: The world without the Purple Paradigm is the one where the by-definition most inquisitive and brilliant people ever born look at mutually exclusive ideas that all generate positive results and derive absolutely nothing from that fact and do absolutely nothing to investigate why that is or how that could be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 04:46
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:you'd have to be incredibly stupid to not make the connection that your paradigm is incomplete as long as it doesn't explain what they're doing I don't think you understand just how insanely stupid Mages are.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 05:39
|
|
|
I think the way it's supposed to work in the least stupid iterations of the set-up is, you can know that different paradigms of magic work, but that doesn't mean you can actually do them. The Verbena may know that Sons of Ether can use magic via their technology, but they can't actually build a death ray because the paradigm that death rays work on is complicated and you need a bunch of degrees to understand the machine at all. Similarly, the Etherite may know that Verbena spells actually work, but he still can't use blood magic rituals because he doesn't have the requisite mystic lore and knowledge of nature to know what he's doing. At best he could maybe copy the ritual exactly out of a book, but in that situation he's pretty much doing sorcery without a license just like any other nonwizard casting spells they don't understand. If you want to be a technomage learning ritual magick, you basically have to start over from scratch and buy your Spheres over again because you're learning a completely different way to relate to the world and none of your old skills apply. Actually going beyond paradigm and method and just casting magic with a pure effort of will is the most advanced kind of magick and most mages just can't do it. But then, I've always wanted an Ascension where paradigm was actually important, which is my main reason for hating M20.
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 05:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 14:20 |
|
|
This guy's not careful he's gonna catch a hex from Brucato https://twitter.com/RachelRoseGold1/status/964356426259824646
|
|
#
?
Feb 16, 2018 06:08
|
|