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LORD OF BOOTY posted:how about we don't use Professor Pyg at all in anything, ever Somebody’s not gonna get an invite to PygCon 2018.
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Feb 16, 2018 18:52
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KVeezy3 posted:Do you get confused when there were 3 different Sherlocks at the same time? Sherlock Holmes is in public domain, you can’t stop anyone from making their own version. DC/WB has 100% control of their characters, it is just sloppy for them to have two different Jokers running around.
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Feb 16, 2018 18:56
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i just don't really vibe with the idea that legitimately horrifying serial killers fit as comic book villains. i have similar beef with Mr. Zsasz and Black Mask, though they're at least not quite as OTT in how horrific their MO is; meanwhile, it's straight up canon that Pyg mutilates the genitals of all his victims like, it's just loving jarring to have Batman go from fighting the Riddler and Clock King and Calendar Man to fighting a guy who kidnaps people and surgically alters them into "dolls" by cutting off all their identifiable bits and sewing a featureless mask on them
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Feb 16, 2018 18:57
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Oasx posted:Sherlock Holmes is in public domain, you can’t stop anyone from making their own version. DC/WB has 100% control of their characters, it is just sloppy for them to have two different Jokers running around. Was a bunch of Star Wars novels written by different authors and a bunch of different pieces of character art drawn by different artists "sloppy"? Marvel had Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man, Web of Spider-Man, and Amazing Spider-Man all running at the same time in the 80s, was this "sloppy"?
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Feb 16, 2018 18:58
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Oasx posted:Sherlock Holmes is in public domain, you can’t stop anyone from making their own version. DC/WB has 100% control of their characters, it is just sloppy for them to have two different Jokers running around. 
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Feb 16, 2018 19:02
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Was a bunch of Star Wars novels written by different authors and a bunch of different pieces of character art drawn by different artists "sloppy"? Marvel had Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man, Web of Spider-Man, and Amazing Spider-Man all running at the same time in the 80s, was this "sloppy"? ... I mean yes to both? The Star Wars novels were notoriously sloppy and ended up stepping on each other and fighting and making incoherent plot and character arcs because no two writers agreed on much for long. You even had writers making fun of the stuff other writers tried to do with the characters. It was incredibly sloppy. The thing is thought that those were trying to be a serial story in the same universe. If you're just doing "here is a Batman story without any connect to context to other Batman stories" then it doesn't matter.They can do whatever they want and it doesn't change anything. Nobody is going to be confused.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:02
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Ok, I accept that answer about Star Wars serialization of the story (not the art, obviously, which you dodged). What about the 4 different monthly Spidey books that dealt with different plots and stories (outside of crossovers)? I never ever heard or read anything about that being sloppy.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:05
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:i just don't really vibe with the idea that legitimately horrifying serial killers fit as comic book villains. i have similar beef with Mr. Zsasz and Black Mask, though they're at least not quite as OTT in how horrific their MO is; meanwhile, it's straight up canon that Pyg mutilates the genitals of all his victims Ehhh. I get where you’re coming from, but we’re gonna have to agree to disagree. Batman’s been melding fantasy/sci-fi with real-deal nitty gritty for a long time. I mean, Batman: The Cult came out in ‘88, and that’s essentially about Batman getting brainwashed by an underground cult of homeless serial killers. If anything, that kind of indulgent tone is one of the things that defines the character, especially when you view it as the last true pulp hero. Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 19:06
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CW currently airs the Supergirl TV show. Syfy is about to start Krypton, a prequel about Superman's grandfather. And they just announced Metropolis, the Superman prequel show companion to Gotham, which focuses on Lois and Lex before Clark Kent moves into town. (No word if it's even connected to Gotham.) We're gonna have three Superman shows running at the same time by next year.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:08
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Ok, I accept that answer about Star Wars serialization of the story (not the art, obviously, which you dodged). What about the 4 different monthly Spidey books that dealt with different plots and stories (outside of crossovers)? I never ever heard or read anything about that being sloppy. I mean I'll say the same thing about the art. People in the comic book thread have made posts showing how unrecognizable characters looked at times. And absolutely so. Almost every comic book where characters appear in multiple stories is sloppy. Characters have massively inconsistent characterizations or rapidly shift motivations or are grieving for the death of a loved one in one book and joking and carefree in another. Very rarely do multiple books running in the same continuity work well in terms of creating a cohesive whole with understandable arcs. It's why the advice is to follow the author, not the character. This is as true now as it was ages ago. In both cases though it doesn't even necessarily mean the story stands poorly on its own. It just stands poorly if you're trying to create a cohesive character out of all the combined elements. It's... well, sloppy.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:09
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The Scorsese / Todd Phillips Joker is presumably going to be a different character than the Jared Leto version, even if they have the same name or whatever.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:12
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Detective No. 27 posted:CW currently airs the Supergirl TV show. None of them with loving Superman. Except he guests sometimes on sg
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Feb 16, 2018 19:14
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Ok so let's say Batman '89 came out in '71, a couple of years after the Adam West version went off the air. Would that be sloppy? Or is lack of continuity and aesthetic a function of time?Al Borland Corp. posted:None of them with loving Superman. Except he guests sometimes on sg This is exactly what I've been hollering for years. This is what always happened to Superman before Snyder: he isn't interesting, so his stuff becomes about everything except him (Elseworlds stuff excused because he was actually allowed to evolve and change) Then we actually got a version that could carry his own stories...and was killed by the "fans" (aka people who've only seen the first two Donner movies) Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 19:14
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Al Borland Corp. posted:None of them with loving Superman. Except he guests sometimes on sg I was thinking that would belittle my point, but they're still Superman related and in Superman settings. I haven't seen much Supergirl but you know they're gonna have thier fair share of duplicate characters in Metropolis.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:18
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The whole continuity/multiverse thing really does give comics wholly unique opportunities to be weirdly dissatisfying and unimaginative.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:20
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Detective No. 27 posted:I was thinking that would belittle my point, but they're still Superman related and in Superman settings. I haven't seen much Supergirl but you know they're gonna have thier fair share of duplicate characters in Metropolis. That was less a reply to your point and more a complaint that they won't just make a god drat Superman show
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Feb 16, 2018 19:32
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Al Borland Corp. posted:That was less a reply to your point and more a complaint that they won't just make a god drat Superman show Ah yeah. They should really do that. And one that doesn't beat around the bush. Maybe Metropolis will introduce the Superman by the third season and heavily focus on him. Something that goads me is the "Superman is too perfect can't make good stories about him since he can't grow as a character" argument. That is such a narrow way of writing stories. Snyder's films correctly that realized that Superman is unique enough that his existence shakes up the status quo of the entire human race. You don't make a Superman story about how Superman's character changes. You make a Superman story about how Superman changes the world.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:41
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There's a significant portion of loud internet types who won't accept those stories. And they have an audience.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:43
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Back when the New 52 kicked off, Grant Morrison had an interesting approach to Superman with his “t-shirt Superman” run, and that was that Clark Kent didn’t start as the version we know, but became him over the course of traveling and interacting with people. It was a comic specifically about not being the ideal protector of earth, but growing into that status through failure and learned experience. Nolan spent three whole movies deconstructing Batman as a symbol, and yet a lot of people still believe that the same work can’t be applied to Superman, because he lacks the “depth” to explore those themes.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:47
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This "brand confusion" talk is unconvincing and reeks of people just wanting to show they're so much smarter than the suits at WB or whatever. Joker and Harley Quinn are insanely popular. I hate to say it but a Joker standalone/origin + Batman vs Joker + Harley-centric movie released in one eighteen month cycle would make more sense than a Cyborg or Billy Batson movie.
Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 19:48
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Fart City posted:Back when the New 52 kicked off, Grant Morrison had an interesting approach to Superman with his “t-shirt Superman” run, and that was that Clark Kent didn’t start as the version we know, but became him over the course of traveling and interacting with people. It was a comic specifically about not being the ideal protector of earth, but growing into that status through failure and learned experience. Nolan spent three whole movies deconstructing Batman as a symbol, and yet a lot of people still believe that the same work can’t be applied to Superman, because he lacks the “depth” to explore those themes. It's a dumb argument because there have been good Superman stories about that.  There are tons of Superman stories about that. I don't like all of them by any means but it doesn't matter if you're talking about Secret Identity or American Alien, they exist and have exist for a long-rear end time.
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Feb 16, 2018 19:52
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MacheteZombie posted:On Gotham Pygs current arc is killing dirty cops while taunting Gordon about it since he's the only good one left. LORD OF BOOTY posted:i just don't really vibe with the idea that legitimately horrifying serial killers fit as comic book villains. i have similar beef with Mr. Zsasz and Black Mask, though they're at least not quite as OTT in how horrific their MO is; meanwhile, it's straight up canon that Pyg mutilates the genitals of all his victims Szasz is another character who's chronically misused: he was just fine in his original role as a psychopath being manipulated by the real villain. He's a jumped-up henchman for Batman to beat up. The problem with supervillains who are just "serial killer with a gimmick" is that a) their motivations are simplistic, and b) if Batman's goal is to stop villains and save people, stories with these villains are basically a catalogue of failure as the villain kills more and more people until Batman finally stops them.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:05
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ImpAtom posted:It's a dumb argument because there have been good Superman stories about that. Preach. And I actually think that the so-called “Superman: Year One” narrative is more compelling than most, because the climb from a fresh-faced farmboy Clark Kent to godlike moral avatar is such a steeper climb than Batman’s revenge journey. When those stories work, they work because seeing Superman fail out of inexperience or brashness weighs so heavily against the rock-solid personification of good that he eventually becomes.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:06
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I feel like you guys are talking about Superman stories that all end when he becomes Superman.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:24
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Kind of. My original point was that there is a fairly common read that Superman is boring because he’s a boy scout or milquestoast or whatever. In fact, those reasons are genuinely compelling, because it’s impossible for someone to just start at that place. Like Superman getting to the point of being, well, Superman is a journey unto itself, never mind all of his adventures that follow.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:31
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I feel like you guys are talking about Superman stories that all end when he becomes Superman. Secret Identity chronicles his entire life from the moment he realizes he has powers to him being an old man.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:34
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Fart City posted:Ehhh. I get where you’re coming from, but we’re gonna have to agree to disagree. Batman’s been melding fantasy/sci-fi with real-deal nitty gritty for a long time. I mean, Batman: The Cult came out in ‘88, and that’s essentially about Batman getting brainwashed by an underground cult of homeless serial killers. If anything, that kind of indulgent tone is one of the things that defines the character, especially when you view it as the last true pulp hero. you kind of hit the problem when you mentioned that Batman's kind of the last true pulp hero. even with the darker stuff, there's usually a fundamental goofiness to it; The Cult is about an underground hobo serial killer cult, but they're pretty cartoonish villains in spite of their concept, whereas in most appearances Pyg is like someone just plonked Jeffrey loving Dahmer down into Gotham City. and that's not an exaggeration, he's usually pretty much written as "Dahmer but with cape villain quirks." darkness is fine, but if you go too dark with it, you lose sight of the actual appeal of Batman. Batman stories can dip down into horror, but when they're fundamentally horror, they kind of just feel off (with Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth as pretty much the sole counterexample, and primarily because it barely involves Batman).
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Feb 16, 2018 20:45
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now that I think about it, this is sort of a problem I have with GMo doing Batman in general. he supposedly loves the goofy aspects of Batman, but he just can not stop himself from shoving in shitloads of insane grimdark bullshit that should have been left in the 90s with Rob Liefeld and Spawn.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:49
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I've noticed this in both his X-Men and Batman runs: he begins with the mission statement of "returning to the roots" and eliminating the miserabilist grimdark bullshit and then can't help but make his villains the most repugnant and vicious he can think of while doing everything he can to push the heroes to their breaking point and making everything look absolutely black and hopeless before the final act. Like, I actually like it because I think he's pretty good at making his stories feel like the hero is truly menaced and everything is at stake etc. which a lot of comic writers really can't do, but it is funny how he seems to both adore the innocent high lunacy of the Silver Age and also channel all this incredibly dark poo poo into everything he writes.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:53
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Batman doing extreme horror is just fine in out-of-continuity one-shots. Not for reasons of continuity nerd purity, but because stories like that should change Batman. And Batman is a static character, that exists to be serialized, for whom change is something that happens gradually and largely by accident. You can do Arkham Asylum, but you shouldn't then try to revert Batman to some kind of status quo after that.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:59
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Werner Herzog as a reimagined Penny Plunderer.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:19
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ImpAtom posted:Secret Identity chronicles his entire life from the moment he realizes he has powers to him being an old man. Sorry, it's one of the few Elseworlds ones I never read. I'm definitely going to rectify that now.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:56
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Oasx posted:Sherlock Holmes is in public domain, you can’t stop anyone from making their own version. DC/WB has 100% control of their characters, it is just sloppy for them to have two different Jokers running around. My question had nothing to do with legality or ownership.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:23
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Oasx posted:Sherlock Holmes is in public domain, you can’t stop anyone from making their own version. DC/WB has 100% control of their characters, it is just sloppy for them to have two different Jokers running around. From what I remember, the BBC did at least threaten legal action against CBS when Elementary came out, but backed out for obvious reasons. Similarly, when the John Carter movie came out, Dynamite had been publishing Barsoom adaptations for a few years by then, and Disney tried to take legal action against them because they wanted Marvel to put out Barsoom comics that tied into the movie. And of course that turned into a moot point fast.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:56
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Remember how they ignored Tony Stark's character growth after Iron Man 3 going into Avengers 2? Remember how in Thor Ragnarok Thor lost his eye and then realized he didn't need a hammer because the power was inside him the whole time?  This could be like that Mandarin Lego set situation, but probably not.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:37
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His eye is gone in the movie. It's in the trailer. But I think the toys didn't know they were going to do that in Ragnarok and no one decided to tell them. Also he's probably gonna need something to bash Thanos in the face with, so why not.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:38
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Armond White's Black Panther review is out, and hoo boy.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:40
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Detective No. 27 posted:Remember how they ignored Tony Stark's character growth after Iron Man 3 going into Avengers 2? Nah, there's pretty reliable info that Thor forges himself a new hammer at some point. The eye missing is probably a toy thing though.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:51
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They're probably reusing Ragnorok heads.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:52
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Armond White's Black Panther review is out, and hoo boy. It's the review he's waited his entire life to write.
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Feb 16, 2018 23:52
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