Shageletic posted:

Killmonger was a broken man fueled by hate. Everything he said was an attempt to hide how utterly hosed he was inside. I don't see a contradiction here.

Arist posted:

I really hope M'Baku doesn't die in Infinity War.

Arist posted:

I really hope M'Baku doesn't die in Infinity War.

Arist posted:

People are skipping straight to "armed revolution by the underclasses is always a moral good" and it's weird as hell. I'm not saying revolutions can't work, or can't be justified, but saying it's literally the only way to achieve results beyond incrementalism is kinda hosed.

Open Marriage Night posted:

It's "Magneto was right" all over again.

Barry Convex posted:

I tend to agree with this, but I also don’t think the film ends up clearly endorsing any solution beyond incrementalism. That’s not to say that I personally agree with the harshest leftist criticisms of the film’s ending (i.e. that T’Challa is endorsing the standard-issue technocratic liberal solution of meritocratic education as a way out of poverty and going no further), but the film ends on a deliberately ambiguous note about exactly how Wakanda is setting out to shape the broader world, and given the constraints of the shared universe in which the film is set, I think it’s reasonable to at least be skeptical about how much they’re actually going to be allowed to change the MCU status quo.

BrianWilly posted:

I agree that it remains to be seen how any of this will meaningfully impact the MCU going forward, but I don't actually think that T'Challa's goals moving forward are all that ambiguous. T'Challa at the end is outright pushing for outreach, philanthropy, and sharing of resources. Aid towards refugees and others in need. All the stuff that Nakia was pressing him on earlier in the film.

The whole critique that all of this is "merely" the same old standard liberal solution that's currently failing to bring about lasting change in the world is kind of ignoring the fact that all the dominant world powers are not, in fact, currently doing this. All our current world powers are only providing the most perfunctory sort of foreign aid -- and some of them aren't even doing that little -- while operating under the exact same sort of gently caress-you-got-mine isolationist policies that the old Wakanda was beholden to. And that's when they're not outright enacting Killmonger's credo of imperialist rule. So of course it isn't working, because the U.S. and U.K. and everyone else are not putting forth any earnest effort into helping each other out, all the while patting themselves on the back about how much better we are than everyone else.

Wakanda is not intended as an allegory for some magical fictive African nation far off in some secret mountain that no one can find; that's the text, not the subtext. Wakanda is an allegory for us, every first-world nation who has all the power in the world to fix things but just sits on our asses fapping about how great we are. T'Challa's stance at the end isn't for everyone to just keep on doing the exact same thing they've always been doing and oh also Wakanda will start doing the exact same (lack of) thing that you're all doing now. He's saying that everyone needs to step up their game to actually put their whole unbridled efforts into helping each other out, and that Wakanda will be doing their part to lead that charge. It is a completely unveiled, deliberate critique of our current administration and a pointed appeal against the status quo.

achillesforever6 posted:

Yeah he was one of my favorite parts of the film, reminded me a lot of Michael Clark Duncan's character in The Scorpion King, I'm the only one who remembers The Scorpion Movie as a good fun film

Nodosaur posted:

https://twitter.com/MBJActivity/status/965985374676967426

so Michael B. Jordan is a total weeb.

Arist posted:

I don't mean to bring this back up after you tried to drop it, but I think they were including the Clinton and Obama administrations in that critique, not singling out the current one.

GLOSS posted:

BrianWilly posted:

I agree that it remains to be seen how any of this will meaningfully impact the MCU going forward, but I don't actually think that T'Challa's goals moving forward are all that ambiguous. T'Challa at the end is outright pushing for outreach, philanthropy, and sharing of resources. Aid towards refugees and others in need. All the stuff that Nakia was pressing him on earlier in the film.

The whole critique that all of this is "merely" the same old standard liberal solution that's currently failing to bring about lasting change in the world is kind of ignoring the fact that all the dominant world powers are not, in fact, currently doing this. All our current world powers are only providing the most perfunctory sort of foreign aid -- and some of them aren't even doing that little -- while operating under the exact same sort of gently caress-you-got-mine isolationist policies that the old Wakanda was beholden to. And that's when they're not outright enacting Killmonger's credo of imperialist rule. So of course it isn't working, because the U.S. and U.K. and everyone else are not putting forth any earnest effort into helping each other out, all the while patting themselves on the back about how much better we are than everyone else.

Wakanda is not intended as an allegory for some magical fictive African nation far off in some secret mountain that no one can find; that's the text, not the subtext. Wakanda is an allegory for us, every first-world nation who has all the power in the world to fix things but just sits on our asses fapping about how great we are. T'Challa's stance at the end isn't for everyone to just keep on doing the exact same thing they've always been doing and oh also Wakanda will start doing the exact same (lack of) thing that you're all doing now. He's saying that everyone needs to step up their game to actually put their whole unbridled efforts into helping each other out, and that Wakanda will be doing their part to lead that charge. It is a completely unveiled, deliberate critique of our current administration and a pointed appeal against the status quo.

irlZaphod posted:

oh my god, please stop

achillesforever6 posted:

Yeah he was one of my favorite parts of the film, reminded me a lot of Michael Clark Duncan's character in The Scorpion King, I'm the only one who remembers The Scorpion Movie as a good fun film

I think 2016 broke a lot of us in thinking everything that isn't hardcore revolution is just mere appeasement and pragmatism. (I say this as someone who became a DSA member after the 2016 election).

Also I feel like I can understand why people are so touchy about Martin Freeman's character being a heroic CIA character given the horrible history of the CIA in Africa/the whole world, but I feel its way overblown and that this movie isn't a psyop

quote:

The following distinction is crucial: Black Panther does not render a verdict that violence is an unacceptable tool of black liberation—to the contrary, that is precisely how Wakanda is liberated. It renders a verdict on imperialism as a tool of black liberation, to say that the master’s tools cannot dismantle the master’s house.

quote:

“Wakanda offers us a glimpse into the world as it could be—self-determined and developed on their own terms without the interruption of colonialism,” Nyong’o told Variety. “[It] has figured out how to make the most of all its citizens. Women are allowed to realize their full potential and that’s what Ryan [Coogler] wanted to show and he committed to having that number of women around him.”

GLOSS posted:

The movie owned but there has been one thing that I can't get out of my head since watching it Did we REALLY need back to back scenes of "Person asks question -> T'Challa gives smug smile -> Black Screen"? I know it's the smallest god drat nitpick but jesus it's annoyed the hell outta me ever since.

SonicRulez posted:

Once I thought about that line after I got out of the theater, I couldn't help but to laugh at the reaction to that line. Certainly they aren't your ancestor if they jumped from the ship.

Though I suppose it's the perfect cherry to the performance. It sounds amazing, but it's another thing that shows how wrong Erik is.

SonicRulez posted:

Once I thought about that line after I got out of the theater, I couldn't help but to laugh at the reaction to that line. Certainly they aren't your ancestor if they jumped from the ship.

Though I suppose it's the perfect cherry to the performance. It sounds amazing, but it's another thing that shows how wrong Erik is.

zoux posted:

Also, you know, poetic license

McCloud posted:

Does this have anything to do with that fetching new red title you got? The second in less than a day?

Also if we judge subforums by a few outlier wierdos, I'm sad to say this place wouldn't come off much better.

Roth posted:

Well, you do post in both subforums.

McCloud posted:

Oh... Oh no.

I also post in the Trump thread in D&D

McCloud posted:

Oh... Oh no.

I also post in the Trump thread in D&D

Karloff posted:

There are parts of CineD that are really great, the Horror Thread for one. But any discussion of a comic book films, especially any criticism of the films that should not be named will have a hundred furious nerds descend upon you demanding you debate them.

SonicRulez posted:

Once I thought about that line after I got out of the theater, I couldn't help but to laugh at the reaction to that line. Certainly they aren't your ancestor if they jumped from the ship.

Though I suppose it's the perfect cherry to the performance. It sounds amazing, but it's another thing that shows how wrong Erik is.

Barry Convex posted:

the single most toxic member of the CineD Pretentious Pseudo-Intellectual Bullshit to Explain Why Any Criticism of MoS/BVS and Any Praise of Marvel Studios Films Is Objectively Wrong and Invalid cult just got probated for endorsing Armond White's attack on high school shooting survivors as crisis actors, lmao

Barry Convex posted:

the single most toxic member of the CineD Pretentious Pseudo-Intellectual Bullshit to Explain Why Any Criticism of MoS/BVS and Any Praise of Marvel Studios Films Is Objectively Wrong and Invalid cult just got probated for endorsing Armond White's attack on high school shooting survivors as crisis actors, lmao

Yvonmukluk posted:

Or you, know, Erik may have been talking metaphorically, especially considering how slaves were literally ripped from their homelands and heritage. He probably wasn't talking about his literal direct ancestors.

Post-credit chat: That was a French representative who asked 'what can Wakanda offer the world?' , right? I'm guessing that was a deliberate choice, considering France's relationship with its former colonies.

Edit:

Wait, what the gently caress?

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

How is cynicism towards the news industry’s narrativization of the shooting, and America’s bullshit gun control debate, incorrect?

White is unambiguously arguing that the children are being exploited. Which, y’know, they are.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

It’s not a defense; he’s not insulting the children.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

He did not say they are crisis actors. He’s specifically written that they are children - and, since children are typically not good at understanding the media, they are perhaps inherently being manipulated.

White is making a reference to the conspiracy theory, but is not indulging in it. It’s along the lines of calling Hillary Clinton a reptilian.

Barry Convex posted:

the single most toxic member of the CineD Pretentious Pseudo-Intellectual Bullshit to Explain Why Any Criticism of MoS/BVS and Any Praise of Marvel Studios Films Is Objectively Wrong and Invalid cult just got probated for endorsing Armond White's attack on high school shooting survivors as crisis actors, lmao