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Germany directly set out to compete with Britain so it is hard to view them as anything approaching innocent. My general take on it all was that almost every power involved in the lead up to WWI was an rear end in a top hat, it is just that with the change of leadership that Wilhelm II represented, the political balance in Europe began to slowly shift from unstable to untenable.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:17
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Panzeh posted:ehhhhhhhh Their stance towards France was "Look, we already know you hate us and want Alsace-Lorraine back, so let's just get this war over with so we can beat you again and focus on fighting Russia."
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Feb 22, 2018 18:25
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There is an overriding logical fallacy which just about everyone (Serbians excepted) who was making decisions subscribed to: "We are entirely constrained by our national interest to act in a certain way; you have no such constraints and may act with discretion; therefore the burden for resolving this crisis falls solely on you." It's terrifying how everyone across multiple nations all locked themselves into exactly the same box. The only thing that made war inevitable this time (and not, say, over Agadir, or the annexation of Bosnia) was that everyone independently decided that war was inevitable this time.FAUXTON posted:In WWI-related vidya-game-imitating-life comedy, Battlefield 1 has a Gallipoli map and it's basically impossible by design for the ANZAC landing forces to take V Beach. Which is unsurprising, because they weren't anywhere near V Beach 
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Feb 22, 2018 19:09
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What amuses me is they dug out some old proto landing craft that suspiciously resemble the ones used on D-Day.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:15
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Trin Tragula posted:There is an overriding logical fallacy which just about everyone (Serbians excepted) who was making decisions subscribed to: "We are entirely constrained by our national interest to act in a certain way; you have no such constraints and may act with discretion; therefore the burden for resolving this crisis falls solely on you." It's terrifying how everyone across multiple nations all locked themselves into exactly the same box. The only thing that made war inevitable this time (and not, say, over Agadir, or the annexation of Bosnia) was that everyone independently decided that war was inevitable this time. That is an alarmingly familiar point of view though. See Brexit.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:22
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 Hitler's bday 20 April 1934. I hope these kids remembered eleven years later how delicious that cake was (if they weren't dead by then).
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Feb 22, 2018 19:46
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Alchenar posted:When they started calling it that it displaced the original 'great' war, which was the Napoleonic wars.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:57
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Fangz posted:I think we can balance WWI being a pointless waste of human lives, and it being the product of what seemed at the time to be generally logical, even necessary decisions.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:58
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Cyrano4747 posted:You should check out the "bitching about students" thread over in SAE. Right now it's got a thread title about wiping student's asses. It's good for general educator war stories, but there's a lot of side-talk that goes on about effective teaching methodology.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:59
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Nenonen posted:
 i think my landlady has those plates
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Feb 22, 2018 20:03
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Everyone's grandma has those plates.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:08
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I wonder what flavour Hitler's birthday cake would be
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Feb 22, 2018 20:11
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Fangz posted:I wonder what flavour Hitler's birthday cake would be Nuts-y
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Feb 22, 2018 20:35
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Fangz posted:I wonder what flavour Hitler's birthday cake would be he's austrian and those people's pastry game is on point so it was probably delicious edit: apparently he took his tea at American South levels of lethally sweet and loved strudel and eclairs with little swastikas on them
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Feb 22, 2018 20:40
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my dad posted:Nuts-y With a distinct hint of almond, I should think.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:43
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Fangz posted:I wonder what flavour Hitler's birthday cake would be All I know is, it wouldn't be very juicy
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Feb 22, 2018 21:23
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my dad posted:Nuts-y To get that other one back, right?
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Feb 22, 2018 21:24
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GreyjoyBastard posted:he's austrian and those people's pastry game is on point so it was probably delicious meanwhile the pudding game was... complicated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLa_m67no1M
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Feb 22, 2018 21:36
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GreyjoyBastard posted:he's austrian and those people's pastry game is on point so it was probably delicious While other Nazis continued living the high life (in Goering case...) wait I guess Hitler *did* live the high live in the drug using sense  Where was I? Right, Hitler had his own personal pastry chef, sweets were his "one weakness" I mean, if you asked Hitler I'm pretty sure he didn't do a press interview in 1936 and screamed "I LOVE AMPHETAMINES!!!!!!" in the middle of it
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Feb 22, 2018 23:17
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MikeCrotch posted:I guess I shouldn't have said they wanted a war, but at the same time the Serbian government was seemingly completely unwilling to curb the Black Hand or any Serbian nationalist movements regardless of what they were up to in Austria-Hungary. I think Nicola Pasic said something along the lines of "The Serbian government cannot quell the passions of young Serbs" whenever anything happened. To be fair to the Serbian government, the previous century was a long line of events that spelled out ‘Repressing your nationalists=Revolution’ over and over again.
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Feb 22, 2018 23:59
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13th KRRC War Diary, 22nd Feb 1918 posted:Working Parties as usual. The Baths at VIJGERHOEK were at the disposal of the Battalion and full advantage was taken thereof by the men who were not on Working Parties.
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Feb 23, 2018 00:43
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VanSandman posted:To be fair to the Serbian government, the previous century was a long line of events that spelled out ‘Repressing your nationalists=Revolution’ over and over again. The 1914 Serbian government was quite eager to use nationalists. When I get to making that post I promised Trin (might even happen this year) I'll explain some stuff about it. However, blaming Serbs for every bad thing to happen in the past millenium (Literally. like, there was stuff being blamed on a "Serbo-Byzantine conspiracy" against "Catholic civilization" allegedly created by Saint Sava, a dude from 12th century) was sort of Austria-Hungary's favorite propaganda bit after the May Coup, and even if there somehow was a Serbian government willing to suppress Serbian nationalists in Serbia, it wasn't going to change the fact that AH was itching to start some jolly genociding as soon as it found an adequate cause for war. my dad fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 00:47
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bewbies posted:It is time for my annual email to the mayor and city council of Brooksville, Florida. I encourage everyone here to send something to this wonderfully diverse and enlightened group of southern politicians regarding the namesake of their town. FYI they have this piece of poo poo laying around:  I'm all for civic engagement but I'm sure all your emails are being deleted as soon as they catch one whiff of your filthy radical abolitionist talk.
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Feb 23, 2018 00:53
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my dad posted:The 1914 Serbian government was quite eager to use nationalists. When I get to making that post I promised Trin (might even happen this year) I'll explain some stuff about it. Austro-Serbian relations weren't terrible before the May Coup and the assassination of King Alexander, though, were they? The Austrian government had sent subsidy money to King Milan, and Austria had threatened to join the Serbo-Bulgarian war on the side of Serbia if the Bulgarians didn't agree to the ceasefire. And I don't know if you can really blame the Austrians for feeling threatened by King Peter and Serbian expansionism.
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Feb 23, 2018 01:09
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my dad posted:When I get to making that post I promised Trin (might even happen this year) I'll explain some stuff about it. I remember you saying you'd get into this but it just seems like it has the same problem for you as it does for anybody else trying to talk about it. There isn't a good loose thread to peck at to unravel the whole situation and it's just hundreds of pages of interlocked context. Was there ever a "simpler time" from which to even build a foundation? It even looks like the area was fragmented in Roman times.
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Feb 23, 2018 01:11
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weekly reminder that fascism is an aesthetic movement as much as a political and economic one https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/22/casapound-italy-mussolini-fascism-mainstream that pound and heidegger were into this breaks my heart almost on a daily basis HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 01:20
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:It even looks like the area was fragmented in Roman times. I mean in fairness, what west of Egypt WASN'T fragmented in Roman times? Hell, ITALY was fragmented in Roman times.
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Feb 23, 2018 02:19
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Epicurius posted:Austro-Serbian relations weren't terrible before the May Coup and the assassination of King Alexander, though, were they? The Austrian government had sent subsidy money to King Milan, and Austria had threatened to join the Serbo-Bulgarian war on the side of Serbia if the Bulgarians didn't agree to the ceasefire. And I don't know if you can really blame the Austrians for feeling threatened by King Peter and Serbian expansionism. Serbia spent a while as an Austrian puppet/ally/grudging accomplice, and a useful one at that, yes. Hell, Austria often stoked Serbian nationalism in hopes of it being mostly pointed against its rival Ottoman Empire, and also sometimes supported the Yugoslav idea because it was seen as easing the integration of (to be conquered in the future) South Slavs into the Empire. This, uh, backfired spectacularly. As for feeling militarily threatened, Austria-Hungary had a population of over 50 million. Serbia had a population of less than 5 even after the Balkan wars (and ~3 before them). So, uh, what were they exactly afraid of? The issue with Serbia was that its very existence was a) blocking AH's expansion South b) creating a source of ideas, information, and political experience for certain downtrodden groups that was outside of reach of Austrian police and censors and gave funny ideas to parts of AH's population. It's not a coincidence that related stuff just happened to find its way into the infamous ultimatum. This isn't an endorsement of the Serbian government of that time, though, lol, hooooooly poo poo, some of the things we did under them were abominably evil. We did have free-ish speech and press and free-ish elections tho. Rocko Bonaparte posted:I remember you saying you'd get into this but it just seems like it has the same problem for you as it does for anybody else trying to talk about it. There isn't a good loose thread to peck at to unravel the whole situation and it's just hundreds of pages of interlocked context. Was there ever a "simpler time" from which to even build a foundation? It even looks like the area was fragmented in Roman times. History of anything is hundreds of pages of interlocking content. I'm just lazy. e: Thanks Tomn my dad fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 02:27
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my dad posted:
Oh, no, Austria was never feeling particularly militarily threatened by Serbia. The problem was, like you pointed out in point b., a lot of the 50 million subjects of Austria-Hungary didn't want to be part of Austria-Hungary, and an unfriendly Serbia was a threat for that reason. In the southern Empire, Croatia especially was pretty restive, all the more so when Croatia was made part of the Hungarian half of the Empire (Hungary was seen as more hostile to national minorities than Austria), and with stuff like the Illyrian movement and Korosec and the May Declaration calling for a Yugoslav kingdom within the Empire, the existence of Serbia, and especially an anti-Austrian Pan-Serbian Serbia, which is what you got when Pasic came to power (and sorry about the lack of diacritics here, was a threat to Austrian stability.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:00
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Epicurius posted:Oh, no, Austria was never feeling particularly militarily threatened by Serbia. The problem was, like you pointed out in point b., a lot of the 50 million subjects of Austria-Hungary didn't want to be part of Austria-Hungary, and an unfriendly Serbia was a threat for that reason. In the southern Empire, Croatia especially was pretty restive, all the more so when Croatia was made part of the Hungarian half of the Empire (Hungary was seen as more hostile to national minorities than Austria), and with stuff like the Illyrian movement and Korosec and the May Declaration calling for a Yugoslav kingdom within the Empire, the existence of Serbia, and especially an anti-Austrian Pan-Serbian Serbia, which is what you got when Pasic came to power (and sorry about the lack of diacritics here, was a threat to Austrian stability. Russia constantly egging Serbia on did not help.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:22
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HEY GUNS posted:weekly reminder that fascism is an aesthetic movement as much as a political and economic one Been reading more of "the cult of art" - got a good spell in yesterday in a waiting room. It may be the weirdest book that I've read in the past several years. This weirdness is because it's a very good, serious, scholarly work, examining the sometimes also quite scholarly rumbling of the Nazi regime. I don't have to tell you the crazy that lies in the Nazi ideology - but seeing it sometimes driven deep by academic discussion, only to have the crazy surface again like some terrible anti-semetic kraken - yeah, it's pretty weird. TL;DR - I had no idea the head Nazis took all this so seriously - and this leads to unintentional comedy, because most of the top Nazis were trying to awaken Germany from its slumber to the truth of their racial superiority through questionable art - and you had guys like Hitler himself and Heinrich Himmiler selecting art for exhibition and trying to excise all that rotten Jewish-Marxist influences Oh and the bit where the author describes the long history of people thinking babies were shaped by whatever they were looking at when they were loving, and a series of anecdotes about "yes our baby is as black as a moor - that's because of all the painting of moors I have in my bedchamber."
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Feb 23, 2018 04:23
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Tomn posted:I mean in fairness, what west of Egypt WASN'T fragmented in Roman times? Italy is fragmented like right now
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Feb 23, 2018 04:56
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Nebakenezzer posted:Been reading more of "the cult of art" - got a good spell in yesterday in a waiting room. It may be the weirdest book that I've read in the past several years. This weirdness is because it's a very good, serious, scholarly work, examining the sometimes also quite scholarly rumbling of the Nazi regime. I don't have to tell you the crazy that lies in the Nazi ideology - but seeing it sometimes driven deep by academic discussion, only to have the crazy surface again like some terrible anti-semetic kraken - yeah, it's pretty weird.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:09
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HEY GUNS posted:the punchline is the art was loving terrible Meanwhile they basically did an exhibition of modern art that was intended to be 'look how degenerate and horrible all this modern art poo poo is' and queues for it were out the door. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_Art_Exhibition
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Feb 23, 2018 11:26
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Epicurius posted:Hungary was seen as more hostile to national minorities than Austria Was actually. Hungarians were all bent out of shape about their rights as a minority when it was the Austrian empire, and when they got those rights and it became the Austro-Hungarian empire they were then all about making GBS threads on everyone else under their control. Nationalism is a hell of a drug.
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Feb 23, 2018 11:29
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feedmegin posted:Was actually. Hungarians were all bent out of shape about their rights as a minority when it was the Austrian empire, and when they got those rights and it became the Austro-Hungarian empire they were then all about making GBS threads on everyone else under their control. Nationalism is a hell of a drug. The current Revolutions podcast series on 1848 has a bunch of stuff about how the pro-Magyar factions in Hungary came to ascendance and gained power for Hungary within the Austrian Empire, at the expense of minorities within Hungary (and later, elsewhere).
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Feb 23, 2018 11:37
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my dad posted:As for feeling militarily threatened, Austria-Hungary had a population of over 50 million. Serbia had a population of less than 5 even after the Balkan wars (and ~3 before them). So, uh, what were they exactly afraid of? Getting repeatedly pantsed and humiliated at the Drina by extremely motivated men with local knowledge, plenty of modern French-made armaments, and a field marshal who didn't have his head up his arse? (Oh no, wait a minute, that's what they should have been afraid of )
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Feb 23, 2018 11:51
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Gaius Marius posted:Yeah every major power in WWI was acting totally rationally using the information they had at the time. What it led to is unfortunate but if you were put in the same situation with the same information you'd almost certainly make the same decisions. I have to disagree. The war started because of Greed. Everyone wanted more land, more population, more resources and invading someone else would get it.
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Feb 23, 2018 12:14
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Trin Tragula posted:Getting repeatedly pantsed and humiliated at the Drina by extremely motivated men with local knowledge, plenty of modern French-made armaments, and a field marshal who didn't have his head up his arse? Putnik was in Budapest when the war started and they gave him safe passage back to Serbia, lol.
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Feb 23, 2018 12:14
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Tag yourself, I'm the fifth stoned Rasputin from the right:
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Feb 23, 2018 13:00
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