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Cythereal posted:The continued success of Starcraft 2 says there is. Forget StarCraft 2, the Brood War Remaster actually went over really well, except that Blizzard decided to be assholes and didn't do any real tournaments for it
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Feb 22, 2018 05:02
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Personally, I can't help but suspect they have more up their sleeve. For a dead game like Warcraft 3, would they really hold an Invitational like this, have everyone involved and invited keep quiet about it, all this fuss... for widescreen support and more players per map? They didn't even invite enough big name players to take advantage of the increased players-per-map, according to what I've seen. And it doesn't explain the presence of the player who, I'm told, usually REJECTS tournament invites.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:30
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Chapter X: The Prince and the Prophet & The Culling Hello everyone and welcome back to Warcraft III. Today's update opens with another of those short, delightful interlude episodes.    : I have no time for this! : Listen to me, boy. This land is lost! The shadow has already fallen, and nothing you do will deter it. If you truly wish to save your people, lead them across the sea... to the west.: Flee? My place is here, and my only course is to defend my people!   : Don't say it! : I sensed tremendous power about him, Arthas. Maybe he's right. Maybe he does know what will happen.: Nothing he can say will make me abandon my homeland, Jaina. I don't care if that madman has seen the future. Let's go.  Click here for video Watch that. Watch that. Watch. That. W A T C H T H A T V I D E O Without any hyperbole, this is one of the single most important moments in Warcraft history. The ripples of this one decision Arthas makes are still being felt to this very day in WoW. This is the elephant in the room. So let's hop right in.  : Glad you could make it, Uther. : Watch your tone with me, boy. You may be the prince, but I'm still your superior as a paladin!  : Oh, no. We're too late. These people have all been infected! They may look fine now, but it's just a matter of time before they turn into the undead!: What?: This is just like Hearthglen all over again. There's so many... : Arthas what are you talking about? Are you saying this plague is-- : How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way.: It's the only way to be sure.: There must be something we can do! What you're suggesting is madness!: drat it, Uther! As your future king, I order you to purge this city!: You are not my king yet, boy! Nor would I obey that command even if you were!: Then I must consider this an act of treason.: Treason? Have you lost your mind, Arthas? : Arthas! You can't just--: It's done! Those of you who have the will to save this land, follow me! The rest of you... get out of my sight! Uther's brigade of knights ride off. : You've just crossed a terrible threshold, Arthas. : Jaina?: I'm sorry, Arthas. I can't watch you do this.  Welcome to The Culling. We get to march into one of the largest cities in Lordaeron and slaughter all of its inhabitants before they get turned into zombies. Remember when this game used to be about funny green men who were trying to summon demons? Compare that relative lightness to the dirge of an intro we just witnessed.   : Sir I think you should know that Uther was planning on giving you a gift for how well you handled Hearthglen. He called in a few favors and managed to get a company of knights assigned to your command.: About time. If we'd had them yesterday, things would have turned out a lot differently.So we start with a semi-mature base. We have a barracks, a handful of peasants, some farms, and a few units including two knights.  And if you look at the minmap, we can actually see the entire city for a change. This is largely to make this mission even possible. Do you see all those brown squares all over the map? Each one of those is a house with four citizens. We need to destroy them and kill 100 citizens before Mal'ganis does. Simple division says that we need to clear 25 houses. Despite this mission also being on a strict timer, it's a hell of a lot easier than the previous one. We're given around 3 minutes to prepare at the start before the culling part of the mission actually begins.  This mission is completely straightforward. There's no optional objectives standing in our way, and the enemy base is way across the map in that black unexplored section. So we have quite some time before any "attacks" come our way. I think in the entire duration of the mission, we suffer three whole "attacks." So just a skeleton crew to discourage any nosy undead is fine.  We've been seeing knights for the entire campaign. So let's finally take a look at their stats. They've got a mountain of HP, deal extremely high base damage, and are armored like crazy. Let's pull out our formula and do some math based on this screenshot. ((6+4.5)*0.06)/(1+0.06*(6+4.5)) = 0.38650 That's 39% reduction in incoming damage. Before upgrades. According to Blizzard's Warcraft III site, at level 3 upgrades, the knight has 11 base defense. So, assuming that's right in the base game's campaign, let's return to the calculations... ((11+4.5)*0.06)/(1+0.06*(11+4.5)) = 0.48186 You read that right. 48% damage reduction when grouped up with a Paladin. These guys are really loving powerful. Oh and they can also get an upgrade that increases their HP by another 150 points, just in case they weren't strong enough. I'm not saying you should build an entire army of these guys, but a couple in any group are always welcome additions.  Let's do something a little different, and go exploring early. I was scrolling around when I saw this obvious bandit camp in the revealed area and had to come say hello. While we're doing so...    : As you can see, your people are now mine. I will now turn this city household by household, until the flame of life has been snuffed out... forever. : I won't allow it, Mal'Ganis! Better that these people die by my hand than sever as your slaves in death! The whole time Arthas is hanging out with this bandit while yelling across the city at Mal'Ganis.  Then he casually crushes the bandit's head in with his fiery hammer.  Good reward, too. Anyway, this mission is incredibly easy. There's one surefire method to getting a lead on Mal'Ganis in the race to see who can slaughter more innocents. : Everyone looks ready. Remember, these people are all infected with the plague and will die soon. We must purge Stratholme to protect the remainder of Lordaeron from these undead bastards. Let's go. That method? Killing the poo poo out of Mal'Ganis. He's a hero unit, so he can revive. But that takes time. Time we can use to gain a substantial lead. Mal'Ganis is kind of a dick, because he can spam his Sleep spell to render entire armies defenseless, one unit at a time. It lasts forever, too.  Eventually Mal'Ganis will die and we'll have 3 blissfully free minutes to get a lead or to recuperate. That's the whole strategy for the entire level. Now that we've got time to prepare, we can build up an even larger army while Arthas breaks some houses down. The more units you have, the faster Mal'Ganis will die in future encounters. It's very much a "rich get richer" scenario, but one that works out entirely in our favor.  : Prince Arthas, may the light be praised! Many people in town have begun to fall seriously ill, can you help us?: I can only help you with a clean death. : Oh, no... But because this will be boring to watch and tedious to screenshot and document, let's jump into the future. All time in Warcraft is measured before and after the first war. So Warcraft I is year 0. Warcraft 3 takes place 20 years after the first war. We're jumping more than 12 years ahead into the future. We're going to watch the events of this mission play out from a different point of view, one that isn't repetitive as gently caress. This alternate view wouldn't have even been possible had it not been for Blizzard giving me a free week in wow to try to entice me to preorder the Battle for Azeroth expansion.  : Mal'Ganis will send out some of his strongest minions to interfere with us. Those of you with the strongest steel and magic shall go forth and destry them. I will lead the rest of my forces in purging Stratholme of the infected. In this future version of the Culling, Stratholme is full of hostile zombies..  While regular (possibly infected) citizens cower and try to leave by the only exit. That's where Arthas and his men are waiting.  Ghouls and other undead enemies we've seen throughout the campaign wander around aimlessly, not really doing anything important.  The necromancers in the WoW version don't summon any skeletons, they just use shadow magic.  The city is much smaller in this version. You just walk back and forth between the two streets clearing out undead minions.  Abominations are kind of hosed up when you realize they're three times taller than a normal human, have three arms, and their putrid guts are spilling out of their stomachs. I also belatedly realized that I should have turned health bars off for this, but I'm not going back to rerecord.  Compare to the Warcraft 3 model that looks almost cute.     Back to the game really quick, a new tier of upgrades has finally been unlocked. It's actually two tiers of upgrades, but the third one is superflous in this mission. Also it's weird that the game goes straight from tier 1 to tier 3, so we'll pretend it doesn't exist here.  Jumping ahead several minutes, we've killed Mal'Ganis several more times. We have enough of a lead that we won't need to kill him anymore, and if we leave him alone and stay away from him, he'll leave us alone. We've also seen all that's interesting to see in the WoW version of this mission. It's a dungeon. You kill bosses, get loot, and move on with your life. Even back in the day when it was current, it was a short affair unless you had a newbie who forced the group to watch the roleplay at the start of the instance. Here's a fun thing to try. Next time you find someone who played WoW, just tell them out of context one day "Glad you could make it, Uther." If they played during the second expansion, they will be able to quote the intro from this mission, verbatim, by heart. That aside, there's nothing more worth showing off. In fact, the second half of the dungeon gets bogged down by becoming part of a WoW spanning plotline that had the promise to be interesting, but went absolutely nowhere in the end. So let's just cut to the chase here, huh?  You've seen one senseless massacre of innocent people, you've seen them all right?   : Brave words. Unfortunately for you, it won't end here. Your journey has just begun, young prince. : I'll hunt you to the ends of the earth if I have to! Do you hear me? To the ends of the earth!      NEXT TIME: Divergent Courses & The Shores of Northrend
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Feb 23, 2018 04:04
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Interestingly, what Arthas did was actually probably the best choice he could make in that situation. He just went about it stupidly. According to a quick google search, stratholme had about 25000 people. Obviously we can't slaughter all that in an rts or any sane gameplay segment, so it's represented by the hundred here. But try to imagine twenty five thousand fresh troops for a rising undead threat. Just about any existing fortress in azeroth would be rapidly overwhelmed by that many, not even accounting for all the usual fuckery the undead like to do with their corpses. (How about several thousand abominations?) Of course, what he did wrong was throwing a fit and refusing to explain what the gently caress was going on. He almost tells Uther what's up, but then gets impatient and goes 'IMA PRINCE OBEY ME' instead of taking a couple extra minutes to explain that no, unless you stop it now it's going to go south really quick. Sure, that's a couple extra minutes malganis could use to start harvesting, but then Arthas' forces wouldn't be split in half and the dreadlord would have to contend with uther and his several hundred pissed off buddies introducing their hammers to his face.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:29
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You can have a unit attack a sleeping ally to wake them up early! Just make sure that you remember to tell them to stop after the one attack...
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Feb 23, 2018 04:35
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The irony is that Mal’Ganis does not turn the turned peasants into an army. When Mal’Ganis opens a house waves his hand for each peasant and they vanish. He also talks about snuffing out all life in the city. Dreadlords eat souls so it seems he was just grabbing a large snack and there was no threat of a giant undead horde rushing south. Mal’Ganis is manipulating Arthas, not launching an invasion.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:38
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That's part of the tragedy with Arthas, and why he was so well received. This is the hour when it all goes wrong for Arthas and takes him down a dark path. Not because he's wrong to purge Stratholme - indeed, he's right for all the reasons Drakenel mentioned - but he's so headstrong and impatient that he goes about it in the worst possible way, and it costs him two of his closest friends. And that is the real price Arthas paid here, the two people who might have been able to stop him from what's to come. Interestingly, there is an official alternate timeline seen in the comics, thanks to Azeroth's time cops, that explores a version of history where Jaina stayed with Arthas at this point and through the end of the human campaign. It... doesn't end any better. Arthas, Jaina, and Uther still have no idea what they're really dealing with.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:41
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On Hard this mission can be a beast. The attacks on your base are significantly stronger and Mal’Ganis has a larger escort which gets larger each time he comes back. On that difficulty I find my best bet is to let the dread lord get a lead and target buildings away from him so I do not get too far behind. Then, once the army is built out, attack him and try to win the game as quickly as I can afterwards. Usually I still have to fight him twice or even three times and it is a tight race to 100. I am sure somewhere out there someone took out the dreadlord’s base, I wonder what that changes.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:42
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Xenocides posted:The irony is that Mal’Ganis does not turn the turned peasants into an army. When Mal’Ganis opens a house waves his hand for each peasant and they vanish. He also talks about snuffing out all life in the city. Dreadlords eat souls so it seems he was just grabbing a large snack and there was no threat of a giant undead horde rushing south. Actually, not quite. (Small spoilers) In another campaign, a dreadlord is seen feasting on peasant's souls, and it's not the same animation or setup. As funny as it would be for malganis to be just a gluttonous fat vampire, that's not quite what he's doing.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:44
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For some reason the Arthas novel decides that he was a bit too human in this cutscene and replaces his confused "Jaina?" at the end of the cutscene with the far creepier "Don't deny me, Jaina." 
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Feb 23, 2018 04:46
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Mal'Ganis waving bye-bye to the zombies is simply how his tracker goes up.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:48
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Xenocides posted:I am sure somewhere out there someone took out the dreadlord’s base, I wonder what that changes. I've done it while cheating like a motherfucker before. The building that revives Mal'Ganis is situated up on top of an inaccessible plateau. Once he's revived, he teleports down into his base and wanders back out in a random direction.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:54
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DoubleNegative posted:I've done it while cheating like a motherfucker before. The building that revives Mal'Ganis is situated up on top of an inaccessible plateau. Once he's revived, he teleports down into his base and wanders back out in a random direction. can you it with the vision cheat and mortar teams, or is it too far away even for that?
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Feb 23, 2018 04:59
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I think this is the mission that gives priest's inner fire as well. So on top of knights natural armor, you get 5 more and some damage to boot. By the calculations that means ((11+4.5 + 5)*0.06)/(1+0.06*(11+4.5 + 5)) = .55156950672 = 55% reduction
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Feb 23, 2018 05:05
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I gotta say, this Mission kinda turned me off to the game and the Warcraft series in general when I first played it. I wasn't the sort of player who liked my heroes getting controversial back then, I'm still not to some degree. I really wish Arthas could have found a way to save the citizens of Stratholme rather than kill them. Subsequent game events just make things worse. Anyone else feel similar? I hope you're not afraid to speak up (although we can still delay certain discussions for spoilers and whatnot). Who knows?- maybe Blizzard is listening.  I guess I can be content with things as they are if I have to be. I too wish Arthas was less brash.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:19
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achtungnight posted:I gotta say, this Mission kinda turned me off to the game and the Warcraft series in general when I first played it. I wasn't the sort of player who liked my heroes getting controversial back then, I'm still not to some degree. I really wish Arthas could have found a way to save the citizens of Stratholme rather than kill them. Subsequent game events just make things worse. I think an attempt to save them would've been nice, but ultimately it's not actually possible with what he had on hand. Heck WoW has been several decades after this point and don't know how to save people from the Undead Plague properly yet either. I think I like the story as is, but it is fun to think of alternate events.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:22
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Being a brash idiot who leaps before he looks and never, ever admits that he was wrong is a big part of what makes Arthas Arthas, though. He's in way over his head against an enemy playing him like a violin. And in the alternate timeline where Jaina stayed with him, all that really changed in the end was who picked up an ancient sword.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:23
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achtungnight posted:I gotta say, this Mission kinda turned me off to the game and the Warcraft series in general when I first played it. I wasn't the sort of player who liked my heroes getting controversial back then, I'm still not to some degree. I really wish Arthas could have found a way to save the citizens of Stratholme rather than kill them. Subsequent game events just make things worse. Counterpoint: This is meant to be the story of how Arthas becomes a villain.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:25
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Yeah as ham handed as it is, it's meant to be fall from grace. Besides better he became and hero by being heroic rather than being a hero from the get go.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:34
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isn't arthas supposed to be like nineteen years old in this game would explain a lot about his attitude imo
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Feb 23, 2018 05:36
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I can't say enough good things about the voice-acting in this game. Do you see that link DoubleNegative has told you to watch? Watch it. Hell, I'll link it here again: Watch this! Arthas goes from mocking, to horror, to resigned, to anger and threatening, to that heartbroken disbelief of "Jaina?" at the end. And Uther's shock sounds so genuine, as did his irritation in the beginning with Arthas' snide remarks. The best part is that you (as the player) know that this is the point of no-return. Arthas is on the slippery slope, and you are complicit. None of the purge is in cutscene-land, you are doing it. Something has gone terribly wrong in this brightly-coloured RTS about fantasy men that speak funny lines when you click on them a bunch. I think of WarCraft 3 in the same terms as I do an episode of the G1 Transformers cartoon, "Dark Awakening". There's something perverse about it, something that doesn't fit in. There's an economy of story-telling. This is the sixth mission in a 9-mission campaign, and already so much has happened. The more I watch it, the more I find to appreciate, even as I grow older. ****** Line time! Ready lines are used by units when they're produced. What lines are used when they're initially selected. Yes lines are used when they're given a move order. Attack lines are used when they're given an attack order. Warcry is used randomly for Attack when attacking hero characters. (Thanks to Drakenel for the correction) Pissed is what you get when you keep clicking a unit and it exhausts the What lines. Special is for builder units, and for certain special units, e.g. Uther, who is an AI-controlled character. Knight: Ready
What
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Warcry
Pissed
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Feb 23, 2018 05:47
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It's clear Arthas is getting set up ('come prince we'll settle your score' is a huge red flag), but he's too understandably pissed by the whole thing and too headstrong to really notice. Definitely a 'best decision he could make under the circumstances but boy he did it badly'.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:49
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Several fun details about The Culling: Stratholme has a zoo, holding a variety of monsters and a unique Critter named Filson the Rat. Filson has 100% Evasion, meaning that he will dodge any attack made against him. The player must either click on him until he explodes or use splash damage (via a Mortar Team), which evasion does not work on. He drops the Talisman of Evasion, an item that passively grants 15% Evasion (which completely negates 15% of attacks made against the user), which would make Arthas even more insanely, brokenly durable. There are a variety of unused audio files for The Culling. Nearly all of them were deemed "too disturbing" and were cut as a result.
Originally, killing children was part of the objective. Similarly to the unused audio files, this was beyond the level of hosed up that Blizzard was willing to commit to at the time, so it was cut. Neither the unused audio or the child-killing were removed completely, and can be re-enabled by popping open the mission in the World Editor and fiddling with the appropriate triggers.
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Feb 23, 2018 05:55
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The shot of Arthas on top of the hill in shadow looming over Uther and his knights is about the best cinematography you can get out of WC3's engine.
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Feb 23, 2018 06:03
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Fun fact about this mission: When you destroy the houses the villagers run out, fall asleep and then turn into zombies. When they become zombies, they turn hostile, gaining a significant amount of health. Not enough to be a threat, but enough to make killing them a lot slower. However if you force an attack command on them before they transform, they die FAR quicker. The game encourages you through mechanics to be a monster and kill them while they're still aware of it 
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Feb 23, 2018 06:05
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I think the most tragic thing here is that if the Prophet had gone to Arthas instead of Terenas then things would have gone very differently. Arthas is headstrong and stubborn with a massive saviour complex so if someone had come along and given him the Important Task of leading his people to Kalimdor he would have jumped all in. The only problem is that by the time the Prophet gets to him Arthas is already so deep into his mission that it's far too late.
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Feb 23, 2018 07:07
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Kith posted:Neither the unused audio or the child-killing were removed completely, and can be re-enabled by popping open the mission in the World Editor and fiddling with the appropriate triggers. I think you need to screw around with MPQ files in order to open campaign files though, you can't just open the maps. You might be able to do it with a 7zip or winrar, or you might need a specialized tool, I'm not sure. Also, if you want to modify the triggers, I'm 99% sure that Blizzard wrote them in JASS, rather than the GUI code editor. It is still doable, but you might need to read up on JASS. The GUI is just a wrapper for JASS anyway. lobster22221 fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 07:25
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Kith posted:There are a variety of unused audio files for The Culling. Nearly all of them were deemed "too disturbing" and were cut as a result. drat son, that's straight up  levels of hosed up right there.Obligatory jokes aside, I have to nth the appreciation for the voice acting here and in general. Honestly I'd almost forgotten how good it was until I started rewatching some of the cutscenes - it just fits the tone so drat well, it's great.
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Feb 23, 2018 08:08
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And here it is, the mission that anyone who's played this before has been dancing around: controlling Arthas as he goes through the worst day of his life. He's been worn ragged by the last few missions; if I'm remembering the novel correctly, it's outright stated that he'd only had a few hours' sleep (if even that much) throughout the past several days. He's seen people turn into the undead right in front of him, and it is not pretty. And then he goes and alienates the two people he trusted the most in the world so severely that they wind up abandoning him in his hour of need; to him, it's probably the worst betrayal of his life.
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Feb 23, 2018 08:11
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Apropos of nothing, C&C Generals came out at about the same time. They were going to have a mission in which as the GLA (the terrorist faction) your objective was to poison an entire town using a toxin, but it got cut. I just found that to be an interesting parallel.
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Feb 23, 2018 09:20
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SirSamVimes posted:Fun fact about this mission: When you destroy the houses the villagers run out, fall asleep and then turn into zombies. When they become zombies, they turn hostile, gaining a significant amount of health. Not enough to be a threat, but enough to make killing them a lot slower. However if you force an attack command on them before they transform, they die FAR quicker. The game encourages you through mechanics to be a monster and kill them while they're still aware of it It says something about me that that annoyed me. I felt like it was forcing me to micro massacring people when I wanted to head back to base to queue up more units and upgrades......I might be a bad person.
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Feb 23, 2018 10:20
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Xenocides posted:It says something about me that that annoyed me. I felt like it was forcing me to micro massacring people when I wanted to head back to base to queue up more units and upgrades......I might be a bad person. I have the opposite reaction: Sweet, I can massacre these people more effectively!
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Feb 23, 2018 11:24
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It's very rare you get to massacre people without the game being all edgy about it.Xenocides posted:It says something about me that that annoyed me. I felt like it was forcing me to micro massacring people when I wanted to head back to base to queue up more units and upgrades......I might be a bad person. 
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Feb 23, 2018 11:26
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Oh, I get to post one of the Jaina Sith Lord panels now that we're at this juncture! Gotta feel bad for Arthas here, and a big thumbs up to the voice acting.
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Feb 23, 2018 14:02
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So, I haven't read the novels, and I haven't played WoW. I'm glad DoubleNegative stuck that in. If there aren't spoilers for the next missions, just what happens in the WoW mission? And is Arthas a bit of a bastard in the books?
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Feb 23, 2018 15:46
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Poil posted:It's very rare you get to massacre people without the game being all edgy about it. But I also need to send more units to join Arthas and build some more towers. And yeah, I am horrible at hotkeying effectively. 
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Feb 23, 2018 15:59
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painedforever posted:So, I haven't read the novels, and I haven't played WoW. I'm glad DoubleNegative stuck that in. The WoW dungeon plays out mostly as seen in this mission. It's waves of undead broken by by a boss abomination and a boss necromancer. The only thing in the WoW dungeon that isn't seen in this mission is an assassination attempt by the Infinite Dragonflight (long story) who are trying to kill Arthas here and drastically change history. The time cops send in adventurers from WoW's present and WC3's future to stop them and keep history on course, complete with providing any adventurers who aren't humans, dwarves, or gnomes with illusions to make them fit in. This isn't the last WC3 mission to show up in WoW via the Caverns of Time, either.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:04
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Put me down as someone who would be on the Infinite Dragonflight’s side here. No Fate But What We Make For Ourselves! To heck with the guy with whom I was forced to murder innocents for the greater good! But I doubt Blizzard lets us play on that side of the Mission.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:08
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The Infinite Dragonflight's plan is to physically destroy the entire planet of Azeroth by shattering the fabric of space-time. They are not the people you want to be rooting for. In the End Times dungeon where you visit the future the Infinites desire and confront their leader, among the bosses you encounter along the way is an insane, time-warped Jaina Proudmoore, too powerful a mage to have perished when Azeroth died but lost her sanity as the flow of time was torn asunder. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 16:12
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Xenocides posted:But I also need to send more units to join Arthas and build some more towers. And yeah, I am horrible at hotkeying effectively.
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Feb 23, 2018 18:08
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