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It's why the Hermetic paradigm is the one true paradigm. No, not the one with all the sigils. The one built on a solid understanding of the Tabula Smaragdina. A bunch of cryptic semi-scientific statements that push you to continually expand understanding and look for the subtle connections between all things has the advantage of being so non-specific that it can adapt to almost anything. That's right. The true path is not the purple paradigm. It's the Emerald Paradigm.
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Feb 16, 2018 06:25
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Dark Ages: Mage was cool because all of the spellcasting traditions had their own version of the Spheres which did different things and couldn’t really be compared on a one to one basis. It’s semi-implied that sometime between then and the Renaissance that the different magical communities got together and basically hashed out the Spheres as a sort of syncretic thing (that happened to be mostly based on the Hermetic way of things).
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Feb 16, 2018 06:29
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MonsieurChoc posted:Industrial was my jam in 1E, that'S sad. Industrial's theme of "horrifying brutality of your own tools turned against you" is folded into the Key of Chance. The weird anachro-tech pseudo-steampunky aesthetic remains in 2009 where it belongs.
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Feb 16, 2018 09:36
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Meinberg posted:Dark Ages: Mage was cool because all of the spellcasting traditions had their own version of the Spheres which did different things and couldn’t really be compared on a one to one basis. It’s semi-implied that sometime between then and the Renaissance that the different magical communities got together and basically hashed out the Spheres as a sort of syncretic thing (that happened to be mostly based on the Hermetic way of things). Hell, they are still around in V20 Black Hand. Well, one of them is. It's amusing how much of a grab bag of cool things that book is.
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Feb 16, 2018 09:46
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Our group interprets the different paradigms as denial. Joint casting by members of different Traditions is framed as two wizards having a shouting match about how to do things properly. A failed roll was always due the other guy not knowing how to follow simple instructions, and a success left both parties satisfied that their 'apprentice' finally got something right.
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Feb 16, 2018 11:14
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Pope Guilty posted:I don't understand how you have dudes of nine different Paradigms meeting together, noticing that they can all do the same things via different ways, and not immediately set about trying to derive the Purple Paradigm. Your paradigm is how you think reality is arranged such that the things you do generate magical effects. As soon as you become aware that other mages exist and have their own paradigms that also work, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to not make the connection that your paradigm is incomplete as long as it doesn't explain what they're doing. This should have all happened hundreds if not thousands of years ago and basically Awakening is how things should've ended up loooooooong before the original 1990's setting. Some paradigms are more permissive of this than others. Dreamspeakers say "Spirits did it!", the Templar Knights say "God/the devil did it!", Virtual Adepts say "Glitch in the Matrix!", etc. Some groups, meanwhile, have to go "Aurora borealis, at this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen? Makes sense." And, as others have pointed out, sometimes they don't really care: we do magic our way and you do magic your way and there's no contradiction because the world is a weird place we don't know everything about.
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Feb 16, 2018 12:01
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Scion Hero update: Neall says he hopes to have the text out by the end of the month.
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Feb 16, 2018 13:32
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update from a couple pages ago: I ended up just becoming an infernalist toreador as a result of a dark pact, and my patron demon promised me "greater power" if I complete the terms. Mechanically this means that I get Daimonion in clan right now and will get a full Baali embrace and respec if I succeed. My character also still has a high humanity and 5 dots in conscience but I'm supposed to encourage diablerie and other bad things in my fellow neonates so this should provide some interesting tension!!
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Feb 16, 2018 17:23
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The Geist previews continue to look good, I think it might fight Awakening for my favorite book. First Edition was a disappointment, but mechanically and thematically this looks like an improvement. Is it going to be the next Kickstarter after Trinity?
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Feb 16, 2018 18:13
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neaden posted:The Geist previews continue to look good, I think it might fight Awakening for my favorite book. First Edition was a disappointment, but mechanically and thematically this looks like an improvement. Is it going to be the next Kickstarter after Trinity? No. Next one is Exalted 3: Dragon-Blooded.
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Feb 16, 2018 18:27
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Do we have ETAs or even a rough expected order of release for the various upcoming projects? The OPP website has a list of everything they're working on but no indication if e.g. Changeling 2E or Geist 2E is coming out earlier. Even just "when were they first announced / when did work begin" would be useful.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:27
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Do we have ETAs or even a rough expected order of release for the various upcoming projects? The OPP website has a list of everything they're working on but no indication if e.g. Changeling 2E or Geist 2E is coming out earlier. Changeling has had a lot of its text released and the Kickstarter was a while ago, so that's definitely coming out first. It would be nice if that were more readily available information on their website.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:31
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That Old Tree posted:Changeling has had a lot of its text released and the Kickstarter was a while ago, so that's definitely coming out first. It would be nice if that were more readily available information on their website. I think the general idea is to not put dates on things until you know it's really going to happen on those dates. That way people don't know to get upset when deadlines are missed because of unforeseen bumps in the publishing process.
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Feb 16, 2018 20:34
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Jhet posted:I think the general idea is to not put dates on things until you know it's really going to happen on those dates. That way people don't know to get upset when deadlines are missed because of unforeseen bumps in the publishing process. Sure, I absolutely get that. But without digging through blog posts I don't think there's a ready indication of what line has imminent product?
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Feb 16, 2018 20:44
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Would it even help? I could name more than one product that spent a year in the condition of "could be ready any day now." That's not even a joke or a mean description; one of those products is one I was working on and I spent a literal year thinking it would probably be ready in a month!
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Feb 16, 2018 20:47
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Subscribing to the weekly newsletter gives you a good sense of the order of things. Changeling is next up. Hunter is probably further along than Geist. Iirc they still have woof and Beast things in the pipeline
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Feb 16, 2018 21:09
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I have a favor to ask of this thread. I'm planning a game and discussing character creation with my players. One of my players is interested in playing a Tremere. I'm okay with this and have made it clear this character will face many tests of loyalty to all those around them. I've also told them that I'm going to restrict Thaumaturgy pretty heavily at the start of the game as a reflection of age and status. As they started mentioning different Paths, I realized they were reading out of V20 which lists EVERYTHING. I cannot find my VtM revised core book and would like to present them with a more restricted white list of what is acceptable. Can someone name the Thaumaturgical paths from VtM revised so I can reference that until I find my core book?
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Feb 16, 2018 21:46
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Dr. Poz posted:I cannot find my VtM revised core book and would like to present them with a more restricted white list of what is acceptable. Can someone name the Thaumaturgical paths from VtM revised so I can reference that until I find my core book? Revised core has the Paths of Blood, Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind, Conjuration and Hands of Destruction. Uh... Free translation, as my book is not in English. The book does make a point that Hands of Destruction is semi-exclusive to Sabbat Tremere.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:59
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Dr. Poz posted:I'm okay with this and have made it clear this character will face many tests of loyalty to all those around them. I've also told them that I'm going to restrict Thaumaturgy pretty heavily at the start of the game as a reflection of age and status. Look, if you don't want your player running a Tremere just have a grown-up conversation about it instead of doing all this.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:09
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The reality is that being Tremere is a loving nightmare, and there's like 8 million groups out there that have the same magic that you do and they probably all want you dead. And also, guess what, you actively have to fight them to the death because your superiors are desperately afraid that the Cam will find it's magic elsewhere and just wipe your asses out, because come to think of it pretty much everyone wants the Tremere dead. And like half the Tremere want the other half dead, and your boss isn't even in his own body anymore because blood god he tried to soul murder for ultimate power packed his poo poo and sent him running. And about eight billion other things. But no, it's cool, you can use like basic telekinesis or some bullshit any given hedge mage could start with. Aren't you special? You want to screw your player for being a Tremere, you nod sagely and let them play a Tremere.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:28
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Basic Chunnel posted:Subscribing to the weekly newsletter gives you a good sense of the order of things. Changeling is next up. Hunter is probably further along than Geist. Iirc they still have woof and Beast things in the pipeline I'd caution against thinking that putting out any of the books is a strictly linear assembly process. When I turn in a final draft and when it comes out can vary a lot project to project. Edit: I should clarify that I'm really not privy to any of the deeper development of the books I just know when I get hired for things. TwoWordName fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 22:49
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ZearothK posted:Revised core has the Paths of Blood, Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind, Conjuration and Hands of Destruction. Uh... Free translation, as my book is not in English. The book does make a point that Hands of Destruction is semi-exclusive to Sabbat Tremere. Perfect, thanks! moths posted:Look, if you don't want your player running a Tremere just have a grown-up conversation about it instead of doing all this. This player's only experience with WoD was with Mage 2nd ed many years ago. They have little experience with Vampire and told me they have a habit of attempting to power game characters. The rest of the troupe will be first time players. I like the idea of having a character in the group that could cause tensions in situations when the coteries agenda conflicts with the local chantries. This was the grown-up conversation. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to restrict Thaumaturgy paths to what is reasonable for a neonate in the Camarilla to learn early on. Thanks though. Dr. Poz fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 23:12
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Dr. Poz posted:I like the idea of having a character in the group that could cause tensions in situations when the coteries agenda conflicts with the local chantries. This was the grown-up conversation. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to restrict Thaumaturgy paths to what is reasonable for a neonate in the Camarilla to learn early on. Thanks though.
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Feb 17, 2018 01:49
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That's pretty much it, exactly. In restricting the character, you're also singling out a player and preemptively handicapping their game experience. This will cause friction down the line. It's also got the potential to turn the game into even more of the Tremere's Spotlight Show because of all the additional loyalty testing and character focus you've offered.
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Feb 17, 2018 04:20
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My strategy for such things is to say "you can if you really want to, buuuut" and list off all the ways they'd be handicapped and explaining why that might be a problem and damage their fun. If they still want to do it, by all means I'm not taking that option away from them. Providing I don't take the easier option of just saying "Nah that character option doesn't work with what I'm doing here" which I generally try to avoid, but sometimes I gotta. e: There's really no reason to restrict player options providing all of the following: A) It doesn't conflict in any way with the themes or function of the game you plan to run. B) You feel comfortable running a game with this spread of characters. C) Everyone involved knows what they're getting into and is okay with it. Xinder fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Feb 17, 2018 |
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Feb 17, 2018 04:24
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After doing some googling just now, I realize I was mistaken. The player wasn't reading from V20, they were looking at the White Wolf wiki, HeroLab or some other list. The Path they mentioned was Path of Mercury and I didn't feel like it was a good fit for what I wanted to run. Rather than haggling, I thought using the Paths available in the revised core seemed like a decent enough compromise. I've been really encouraging with all this players character ideas. The other concepts he's considering are an infernalist and schismatic Assamite. I'm 100% ok with him taking Path of Blood knowing full well how good it is. In a vacuum, I agree with what everyone has said. If I were running for a group of friends I had played with before and knew a bit better, this wouldn't have even been a concern. But given my feel for the situation and players, I think I'm making the right decision. moths posted:It's also got the potential to turn the game into even more of the Tremere's Spotlight Show because of all the additional loyalty testing and character focus you've offered. I over emphasized the level of focus that would be put on this, and get where you're coming from. Xinder posted:e: There's really no reason to restrict player options providing all of the following: Given that this would be my first time running for the group, and their first time playing in a WoD game, I don't think any of these things hold true. Dr. Poz fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Feb 17, 2018 |
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Feb 17, 2018 07:38
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Sorry if i came off more abrasive than intended- I think this hobby adds to its collective baggage every time a GM answers "Yes, but I'm going to nerf it and punish you" instead of an honest "No, I'd prefer you ran something else. " It looked like you were going that route and my knee jerked.
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Feb 17, 2018 19:23
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Two of my players in a long-running campaign of Awakening were chatting about how infuriating Mages must be to hunters. Hunters spend huge amounts of time and effort and tragedy becoming able to take down monsters, they have hard-won professional and individual skills they've learned to apply to fight back the darkness. Mages know all of that is bullshit and if you just think real hard about the Forms for a little while you'll be much better at doing things than hunters can ever be. "Oh, you spent your entire life training with weapons and urban tactics as part of an elite monster-hunting operation after your house was foreclosed on by vampires and your family exploded by werewolves? Kind of a waste, I just directly perceive the truth and now I can fly, turn invisible, and throw lightning. And by studying the Mind I can become at least as good at gunfighting and hunting as you are, because I work smarter, not harder." Neoplatonist metaphysics are, unsurprisingly, pretty dickish to the average person.
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Feb 23, 2018 06:08
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I mean, I think mages do work pretty hard at learning magic, but yeah, kind of.
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Feb 23, 2018 06:11
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, I think mages do work pretty hard at learning magic, but yeah, kind of. Yeah, I know, but it's a very different kind of work and it's very much the case that magic is more efficient at achieving things than nonmagical effort, because it's more true and direct. The fact that the Abyss tears it down again is an inconvenience but the two players have Mind and Life 4, respectively, so one of them can get buff on a moment's notice and the other can instantly have access to about 7 in any mundane skill with a relatively short ritual, indefinitely. I'm pretty sure my players will never buy dots in mundane skills and attributes again, to be quite honest. If they do it will show great Wisdom. EDIT: Also to a hunter all of the actual work of magic is inherently hidden, unless they're both a Sleepwalker and especially interested in the psychology and lore of the Awakened, because otherwise the internal mechanics of Gnosis pretty much just look like 'and then I thought, what if I could throw fireballs, and then I willed it so, and threw a fireball.'
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Feb 23, 2018 06:25
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That's not very different from their relationship with any other supernaturals, though. Vinnie the vampire can shrug off a lead pipe to the face just by virute of a corpse having chewed on his neck, but hunters aren't exactly jealous of him. If anything it's the very fact that a mage doesn't have to work for their abilities (in any way the average mortal understands as "work") that marks them as a monster.
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Feb 23, 2018 12:11
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Terrorforge posted:That's not very different from their relationship with any other supernaturals, though. Vinnie the vampire can shrug off a lead pipe to the face just by virute of a corpse having chewed on his neck, but hunters aren't exactly jealous of him. If anything it's the very fact that a mage doesn't have to work for their abilities (in any way the average mortal understands as "work") that marks them as a monster. For one thing, "person who happens to be able to do poo poo I cannot do", as disconcerting as it may be, is orders of magnitude easier to cope with than "person who literally needs to drink blood/abuse people to keep living". Fundamentally, "I'll never be able to do the thing that person can do" is already an ordinary part of human experience - people can deal with it. For another, "fellow human being who happens to have superpowers" is the sort of backup that Hunters absolutely dream of having. OOC there's balancing issues to do to keep everyone feeling relevant, but IC Hunters really don't mind the Angel Summoner vs. BMX Bandit problem - if they can solve poo poo by convincing a friendly mage to do stuff, and doing so lets them keep their powder dry and their people safe, it's a no-brainer. I think the main reason Hunters would not get on with Mages would be the stances of the different factions. I can see lots of Hunters buying into the Free Council's rhetoric, for instance, whereas I can equally see how Hunters would take one look at the Seers of the Throne and say "OK, that's some Illuminati poo poo right there, I can completely believe those are the evil guys". (On the other hand, if the Seers were smart enough to run propaganda like OWoD's Technocracy - "We're the people who make sure that the laws of physics stay consistent enough to allow people to have an ordinary, calm life" - that might persuade some Hunters to side with them.) The other reason I see for Hunters to turn on Mages is if the Mages' mystery-sniffing seemed about to go into a dangerous area. Say the local Hunter cell has already worked out that something horribly dangerous and well beyond their ability to flat-out kill is slumbering at the bottom of the Old Copperbottom Mine, and they arranged for an "accidental" rockfall to seal off the mine to keep the horror trapped. They're going to get pissed if Mages show up wanting to get inside and talk to the gribbly to find out its secrets.
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Feb 23, 2018 12:32
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The Reckoners knew the Truth. Bring those guys back.
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Feb 23, 2018 12:47
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I tend to think the average hunter doesn't have nearly enough understanding of the internal structure of gribbly politics to even know there are multiple factions, let alone have an informed opinion on any specific one. They're not going to see the difference between the Seers' unnatural, manipulative, self-serving machinations and the Pentacle's unnatural, manipulative, self-serving machinations, especially since a lot of the conflict centers around things that only matter to wizards. To the Union soccer mom who just wants to drain her local swamp, the fact that a friendly Pentacle mage is willing to kill in order to "prevent the Seers from strengthening the influence of the Exarchs and reinforcing the Lie" marks him as a dangerous lunatic, not a hero. Now a smart wizard probably wouldn't pitch it to her quite like that, but the fact of the matter is still that a lot of what they do is only justifiable if you buy into their worldview, which a hunter will not. You're then faced with a wizard who claims to be motivated by a desire to help his fellow man, but inevitably does a bunch of dangerous wizard poo poo in secret. That's the "personal horror" element of Mage; no matter how benevolent their intentions, they're inevitably going to try to summon and bind Demon King Enma or build a sapient chimera out of offal just because they think they can. Or they'll just gently caress up somehow and rip open a portal into the negaverse and destroy a city block while trying to heat their morning coffee. A hunter is probably never even going to realize they don't do it out of malice, but even if they did fully comprehend the situation the fact that a mage will continue to pull poo poo like that pretty reasonably qualifies them as too dangerous to let live. Both Hunters and Mages are of course very heterogenous groups though, so in the end there are no hard and fast rules. It's just that given the whole "he who hunts monsters" theme I would think that the default position of a hunter being offered magical aid would fall somewhere between deep suspicion and "kill it with fire".
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Feb 23, 2018 13:24
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Lord_Hambrose posted:The Reckoners knew the Truth. Bring those guys back. Reckoners were a bunch of hypocrites that were just as supernatural as everyone else, no matter what they tried to claim to the contrary. 
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Feb 23, 2018 14:08
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hangedman1984 posted:Reckoners were a bunch of hypocrites that were just as supernatural as everyone else, no matter what they tried to claim to the contrary. They were just trying to change things from the inside!
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Feb 23, 2018 14:16
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The other thing is that, thanks to the Lie, magic hurts people. Mages can try to tell you what they're doing, but they can't ever show you, because it will literally make your mind start tearing itself apart. They can tell you it's the Lie, they can tell you they can't help it, but they can never be honest with you, you can never trust they're doing what they say, because they can't show you their magic.
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Feb 23, 2018 14:25
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Geist post on Mementos, now hopefully less confusing and broken than 1e.
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Feb 23, 2018 14:33
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Mors Rattus posted:Geist post on Mementos, now hopefully less confusing and broken than 1e.
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Feb 23, 2018 15:03
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I like that they're taking the approach of having them be an aspect of the power resources minigame with SCP effects bolted on, instead of a sliding scale of "cute" to "basically some free XP" to "give me all the stats you have." "Weak but useful" will always be my favorite category of magic item. Swords that split your foes apart at the atomic level for +2 aggravated damage are cool and all, but they'll never be half as fun as figuring out how to abuse a disposable camera that can't be disposed of.
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Feb 23, 2018 15:11
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