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Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


Tipps posted:

I live in Iqaluit, and the only way in or out is by plane to Ottawa, at around 2500$ round trip.

At least until next year when Aeroplan goes bust, using TD's Aeroplan visa card on literally everything, including 2x points for groceries and gas, allows us to fly out for free 4 to 6 times a year (~10-15k worth of flights).

The all-inclusive chequing account waives/refunds the annual fee for the card (130$ or something). So assuming I can keep the minimum balance and not keep getting dinged fees, I come out ahead.

It's also a lot more convenient for everything to be in one place now (including the the self-directed investments I already had), since banking options locally are very limited, and relaying everything through southern branches sucks. If I had Aeroplan points for every time I had to explain to a call centre drone that, no, we don't have street addresses up here, I would have another free flight or two.

The joys of living in the north. :unsmith:

I've been to Iqaluit; the north really is something for sure!

I get wanting everything in the same place. I also got over it myself because with online banking especially you can take care of things pretty easily and integrate pretty well. I have my CC, investments, and day-to-day checking and savings all over the place. Rarely if ever need to go into the branch (and Tangerine doesn't even keep cash on hand at their "cafes".

Anyway, just tossing the option out there, understanding these solutions aren't one size fits all.

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Jan
Feb 27, 2008

The disruptive powers of excessive national fecundity may have played a greater part in bursting the bonds of convention than either the power of ideas or the errors of autocracy.

Tipps posted:

At least until next year when Aeroplan goes bust, using TD's Aeroplan visa card on literally everything, including 2x points for groceries and gas, allows us to fly out for free 4 to 6 times a year (~10-15k worth of flights).

You can use someone's credit cards without having an actual banking account with them, y'know. :pseudo:

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

Mortgage question: I am looking to buy a place, and I can afford a down payment & mortgage for the price range I’m looking at. A complication is that I’ve recently gone on unpaid medical leave, and will likely be on it for several months. I have enough cash to cover the mortgage payment for quite a while, but I’m not sure what a lender will think of the situation.

Anyone have insight? It is causing me stress.

Kal Torak
Jul 17, 2003

When Giles sends me on a mission, he says "please". And afterwards I get a cookie.

Subjunctive posted:

Mortgage question: I am looking to buy a place, and I can afford a down payment & mortgage for the price range I’m looking at. A complication is that I’ve recently gone on unpaid medical leave, and will likely be on it for several months. I have enough cash to cover the mortgage payment for quite a while, but I’m not sure what a lender will think of the situation.

Anyone have insight? It is causing me stress.

I think it's unlikely you will get approved for a mortgage without income. Plus, if you are on medical leave for the foreseeable future, why on earth do you think it's a good idea to make such a large purchase?

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

Kal Torak posted:

I think it's unlikely you will get approved for a mortgage without income. Plus, if you are on medical leave for the foreseeable future, why on earth do you think it's a good idea to make such a large purchase?

The purchase isn’t that large relative to my assets (I could buy it cash, but would rather not), and it’s necessary for some life plans related to school districts. Worst case I’ll buy it cash and invest out of a HELOC, but I’d rather do what I thought would be simpler.

What do lenders think of investment income? Not predictable enough?

E: I do genuinely appreciate your concern, though!

Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Feb 14, 2018

mojo1701a
Oct 9, 2008

Oh, yeah. Loud and clear. Emphasis on LOUD!
~ David Lee Roth

Mezzanon posted:

That is 100% my plan going forward!


Edit: $351 owed, not as bad as I thought.

Nice. Did you have extra credits other than the standard deductions?


I'm glad to help. I spent most of Saturday working on my second assignment for CPA's taxation course, and a simple tax question was so much easier than having to calculate corporate tax by hand, involving associated companies, dividends, dividend refunds, investment income, etc.

On the plus side, after talking to my boss, I'll probably never have to do it again once the exam is over on the 24th. Wish me luck!

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

Tipps posted:

I live in Iqaluit, and the only way in or out is by plane to Ottawa, at around 2500$ round trip.

At least until next year when Aeroplan goes bust, using TD's Aeroplan visa card on literally everything, including 2x points for groceries and gas, allows us to fly out for free 4 to 6 times a year (~10-15k worth of flights).

The all-inclusive chequing account waives/refunds the annual fee for the card (130$ or something). So assuming I can keep the minimum balance and not keep getting dinged fees, I come out ahead.

It's also a lot more convenient for everything to be in one place now (including the the self-directed investments I already had), since banking options locally are very limited, and relaying everything through southern branches sucks. If I had Aeroplan points for every time I had to explain to a call centre drone that, no, we don't have street addresses up here, I would have another free flight or two.

The joys of living in the north. :unsmith:

Just out of curiosity why do you live up there? Are you a researcher or is someone making it extremely worth your while to work there or?

Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003

Pillbug

mojo1701a posted:

Nice. Did you have extra credits other than the standard deductions?


I'm glad to help. I spent most of Saturday working on my second assignment for CPA's taxation course, and a simple tax question was so much easier than having to calculate corporate tax by hand, involving associated companies, dividends, dividend refunds, investment income, etc.

On the plus side, after talking to my boss, I'll probably never have to do it again once the exam is over on the 24th. Wish me luck!

I had my second job take off a fair amount in extra taxes, so I'm pretty sure that's what saved my bacon. But going forward I have my primary job taking off an extra $50/cheque as well

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

What's the difference between a fund that tracks an index and an etf that tracks that same index?

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rbf556_e.pdf

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rcan_e.pdf

These two for instance track the same index, but one has a MER of 0.72% while the etf has a "Management Fee" of 0.05%.

On another note, I've had a large part of my retirement and other investments in this RBC fund:

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rbf554_e.pdf

The returns have been pretty good, but that MER of 1.93% bothers me. That 7.8% average return minus the 1.93% means that the fund has averaged an effective return of 5.87%, right? That's not too bad, but that Canadian Index Fund has averaged 7.7% for a much smaller MER.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

PhilippAchtel posted:

What's the difference between a fund that tracks an index and an etf that tracks that same index?

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rbf556_e.pdf

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rcan_e.pdf

These two for instance track the same index, but one has a MER of 0.72% while the etf has a "Management Fee" of 0.05%.

I believe an ETF (can be) set up to run more cheaply than an equivalent mutual fund? But I don’t imagine that explains that wide a gap.

Can’t think of any other differences that might explain the different expense ratios.

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

PhilippAchtel posted:

What's the difference between a fund that tracks an index and an etf that tracks that same index?

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rbf556_e.pdf

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rcan_e.pdf

These two for instance track the same index, but one has a MER of 0.72% while the etf has a "Management Fee" of 0.05%.

That ETF has not been around long enough for them to actually report a MER as a percentage of NAV. That's why it's a hyphen and not a 0.00%. There will certainly be an associated cost with the management of it beyond the 0.05%.

I'm not really sure how you'd find out what the full MER would be. Please let us know if you find this out.

Square Peg
Nov 11, 2008

PhilippAchtel posted:

What's the difference between a fund that tracks an index and an etf that tracks that same index?

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rbf556_e.pdf

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rcan_e.pdf

These two for instance track the same index, but one has a MER of 0.72% while the etf has a "Management Fee" of 0.05%.

On another note, I've had a large part of my retirement and other investments in this RBC fund:

http://funds.rbcgam.com/pdf/fund-pages/quarterly/rbf554_e.pdf

The returns have been pretty good, but that MER of 1.93% bothers me. That 7.8% average return minus the 1.93% means that the fund has averaged an effective return of 5.87%, right? That's not too bad, but that Canadian Index Fund has averaged 7.7% for a much smaller MER.

ETFs require the investor to buy/sell them through a stock broker or via a self-directed brokerage, whereas the buying and selling is handled by the fund managers with mutual funds. Is this reason enough to justify the very high fees charged by Canadian mutual fund managers? Hell no, but, well, Paying More is our National Pastime.

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Square Peg posted:

ETFs require the investor to buy/sell them through a stock broker or via a self-directed brokerage, whereas the buying and selling is handled by the fund managers with mutual funds. Is this reason enough to justify the very high fees charged by Canadian mutual fund managers? Hell no, but, well, Paying More is our National Pastime.

RBC does charge a commission for purchasing ETFs ($35 + 0.05 per share) through a representative, but if you were investing a fair amount and not moving it around, that price would be negligible over time. I know you can get a cheaper rate trading online, but I do like my financial consultant, and there would be certain... political considerations with other members of my household if I wanted to do this without consulting our guy.

But, I can drop my tax return (or any other random) money into a mutual fund whenever I want for no up front cost. If I was buying ETFs in less than chunks of $5,000 ($35 / 0.72%), purchasing the stock would, at least initially cost more than the fund (and this is ignoring any maintenance fee on the ETF), so I can see the appeal for someone not ready to commit.

It's funny, because I usually think of stocks as the vehicle for people that want to micromanage their money, but when you take the commission into account versus the built-in fees of a fund, it seems to my naive mind that no-load funds give you more flexibility.

But really, I just want to squeeze out that extra percent or two. Maybe the index fund is a good intermediate step.

Square Peg
Nov 11, 2008

PhilippAchtel posted:

RBC does charge a commission for purchasing ETFs ($35 + 0.05 per share) through a representative, but if you were investing a fair amount and not moving it around, that price would be negligible over time. I know you can get a cheaper rate trading online, but I do like my financial consultant, and there would be certain... political considerations with other members of my household if I wanted to do this without consulting our guy.

But, I can drop my tax return (or any other random) money into a mutual fund whenever I want for no up front cost. If I was buying ETFs in less than chunks of $5,000 ($35 / 0.72%), purchasing the stock would, at least initially cost more than the fund (and this is ignoring any maintenance fee on the ETF), so I can see the appeal for someone not ready to commit.

It's funny, because I usually think of stocks as the vehicle for people that want to micromanage their money, but when you take the commission into account versus the built-in fees of a fund, it seems to my naive mind that no-load funds give you more flexibility.

But really, I just want to squeeze out that extra percent or two. Maybe the index fund is a good intermediate step.

What, are you married to the president of RBC? If you want the extra percent just open an account with Questrade, make some free ETF buys, Bob's your uncle.

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Square Peg posted:

What, are you married to the president of RBC? If you want the extra percent just open an account with Questrade, make some free ETF buys, Bob's your uncle.

Haha, no, more that when you're married and talking about moving around tens of thousands in retirement savings, sometimes a more conservative and diplomatic approach is required. :shrug:

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Can you do RRSP and TFSA accounts through online services like questrade?

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011




Lipstick Apathy

PhilippAchtel posted:

Can you do RRSP and TFSA accounts through online services like questrade?

Yea

Guest2553
Aug 3, 2012


PhilippAchtel posted:

Haha, no, more that when you're married and talking about moving around tens of thousands in retirement savings, sometimes a more conservative and diplomatic approach is required. :shrug:

That's a bit of a warped definition of 'conservative and diplomatic', yo. I mean, do what you gotta do, but do you have a specific reason to not just buy as much VGRO (or VBAL) as you can at the lowest price possible? Sticking with RBC is just paying some rear end in a top hat banker an extra couple g a year for nothing.

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Guest2553 posted:

That's a bit of a warped definition of 'conservative and diplomatic', yo. I mean, do what you gotta do, but do you have a specific reason to not just buy as much VGRO (or VBAL) as you can at the lowest price possible? Sticking with RBC is just paying some rear end in a top hat banker an extra couple g a year for nothing.

What is VGRO and VBAL?

Square Peg
Nov 11, 2008

PhilippAchtel posted:

What is VGRO and VBAL?

ETF funds with "Growth" centric and "Balance" centric allocations of funds (respectively) to stocks/bonds.

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individual/mvc/loadImage?country=can&docId=12396

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individual/mvc/loadImage?country=can&docId=12397

http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2018/02/05/vanguards-one-fund-solution/

Edit:There's also a "Conservative" ETF fund, but unless you're already retired it's probably a bit too bond-centric
https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individual/mvc/loadImage?country=can&docId=12394

Square Peg fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Feb 24, 2018

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Square Peg posted:

ETF funds with "Growth" centric and "Balance" centric allocations of funds (respectively) to stocks/bonds.

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individual/mvc/loadImage?country=can&docId=12396

https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individual/mvc/loadImage?country=can&docId=12397

http://canadiancouchpotato.com/2018/02/05/vanguards-one-fund-solution/

Edit:There's also a "Conservative" ETF fund, but unless you're already retired it's probably a bit too bond-centric
https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individual/mvc/loadImage?country=can&docId=12394

I noticed it with the RBC ETFs as well, why do so many of these have inception dates in the last year?

Edit: Never mind, reading the attached article.

Guest2553
Aug 3, 2012


PhilippAchtel posted:

What is VGRO and VBAL?

Yeah, my bad - they're ticker symbols for some new funds that were just listed this month. Canada has a history of having the highest mutual fund fees in the world, and it's only recently that competition has started to change that (a lot of funds have just opened up in the past year or two, which is why they don't have established histories). Compounding losses due to fees will easily cost you high-five to low-six figures by the time you hit retirement. My fees are an order of magnitude lower than those RBC ones you listed (0.178% vs 1.93%) for a couple hours of trouble a year to buy stuff and occasionally rebalance. VGRO/VBAL cost slightly more at about .25%, but is still about 8 times cheaper than a mutual fund (or 4 times cheaper than tangerine funds, or half as expensive as a robo-advisor) and requires even less effort.

A good book to read is 'millionaire teacher' - it goes a bit into the garbage fee structures and offers strategies for avoiding them. CCP has some good info too, but some of it is a bit dated and it's not as easily organized. I get not wanting to overwhelmed yourself or a spouse with finance stuff (especially given how much effort the industry goes through to make it seem as complicated as possible) but self-directed investing is really simple. My wife and I learned how to use questrade with a five minute youtube video. They also have a demo platform that you can use to practice making trades on in a fake portfolio. At least a couple people in the thread have also shared stories of how they overcame their own/someone else's trepidation of moving non-trivial amounts of money, if you're willing to search.

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Guest2553 posted:

Yeah, my bad - they're ticker symbols for some new funds that were just listed this month. Canada has a history of having the highest mutual fund fees in the world, and it's only recently that competition has started to change that (a lot of funds have just opened up in the past year or two, which is why they don't have established histories). Compounding losses due to fees will easily cost you high-five to low-six figures by the time you hit retirement. My fees are an order of magnitude lower than those RBC ones you listed (0.178% vs 1.93%) for a couple hours of trouble a year to buy stuff and occasionally rebalance. VGRO/VBAL cost slightly more at about .25%, but is still about 8 times cheaper than a mutual fund (or 4 times cheaper than tangerine funds, or half as expensive as a robo-advisor) and requires even less effort.

How is Questrade able to sell ETFs at no cost? Is it like rewards credit cards where, if you are careful, your limited use of the service is being subsidized by other users?

Guest2553 posted:

A good book to read is 'millionaire teacher' - it goes a bit into the garbage fee structures and offers strategies for avoiding them. CCP has some good info too, but some of it is a bit dated and it's not as easily organized. I get not wanting to overwhelmed yourself or a spouse with finance stuff (especially given how much effort the industry goes through to make it seem as complicated as possible) but self-directed investing is really simple. My wife and I learned how to use questrade with a five minute youtube video. They also have a demo platform that you can use to practice making trades on in a fake portfolio. At least a couple people in the thread have also shared stories of how they overcame their own/someone else's trepidation of moving non-trivial amounts of money, if you're willing to search.

Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. "I read some articles online, and consulted with some forums posters, and now I'd like to move half our retirement savings from the mutual funds you know and bank guy you're comfortable with into something akin to stocks. Also, did I mention I want to use a website you've never heard of?" It's a hard sell.

As far as managed funds go, I think that RBC North American Value Fund has been pretty good. It's beat out the index fund I posted by more than the MER for the past 1 year, 3 year, 5 year and 10 year periods. It's only when you scale the timeframe way out that the average returns are about the same. Even though I know how much those compounding fees can add up, it's hard to work up a sense of urgency there.

And it's hard for me to build a case for moving to these new broadly diversified ETFs when their reports don't list earnings numbers because they've only been around for less than a year.

As you say, your comfort zone plays a part, but this is all good info, and I appreciate the advice.

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet



Ultra Carp

PhilippAchtel posted:

How is Questrade able to sell ETFs at no cost? Is it like rewards credit cards where, if you are careful, your limited use of the service is being subsidized by other users?

They get you when you sell your ETF's, they charge their commission fee then. They also make money by selling managed funds.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

PhilippAchtel posted:

How is Questrade able to sell ETFs at no cost? Is it like rewards credit cards where, if you are careful, your limited use of the service is being subsidized by other users?

The actual cost to a discount broker like Questrade to maintain your account is practically nil. Lots of the account management is automated. They have a trading platform built already so adding a couple more accounts to it is no big deal. Then, as mentioned, they charge commission when you sell ETFs (all of $10 per trade). You can run things cheap when you’re not paying for so many bodies to sit behind desks.

quote:

Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. "I read some articles online, and consulted with some forums posters, and now I'd like to move half our retirement savings from the mutual funds you know and bank guy you're comfortable with into something akin to stocks. Also, did I mention I want to use a website you've never heard of?" It's a hard sell.

Totally fair. You could move a little at a time, make yourselves comfortable, convince yourselves it’s working at least as well as your old approach. Do it in your TFSA maybe, so it’s easy to pull out if you aren’t happy. Lots of places (including Questrade) will cover some of your transfer fees if you do decide to switch all the way over. I will say it takes some time and effort to transfer to another brokerage (think a half day's time spread over a month). Run some numbers, maybe that’s worth the extra gains/savings, maybe it’s not. Also run how much it will cost y'all over your lifetime just to stay with your bank advisor.

Read the books from IfYouCan.pdf if that’s your thing.

I don’t know if Baronjutter still hangs around but I remember they were in a similar spot: eager (or at least willing) to take the self-directed plunge, spouse wanted to stay with their bank advisor. You can maybe search their posts in the thread? Or poo poo just read the whole thread over the course of a month or two, there’s no rush.

Finally, you’re better off staying invested (if at a higher fee) than withdrawing everything. So if either of you are so squeamish about switching that you’re at risk of bailing entirely, this random Forums poster gives you permission to stay put.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.
Speaking of Questrade I just finished transferring in an account and they reimbursed me more than the transfer fee. So my handful of hours learning up on transfers and shepherding it along earned me $15.

Square Peg
Nov 11, 2008

I appreciate Questrade's "authorized trader" system, it's made it managing my boomer parent's investments easy so they don't have to pay mutual fund fees.

Square Peg fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Feb 24, 2018

James Baud
May 24, 2015

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
So, this is peripherally finance related in one of the few Canada threads on the forum.

I was wondering, does anyone have any experience with private "executive" healthcare facilities in Canada? Particularly Vancouver, but I'd settle for hearing about wherever else... I'm beginning to get annoyed, despite a high threshold, at my GP and several specialists for wasting my time with pointless follow-up visits stringing me along for months before doing additional referrals or ordering more expensive (govt covered) tests and am flirting with whether this might be a less annoying route to take.

This is kind of driven by a ongoing undiagnosed health issue, but more generally my past experience with private surgeries is that, private care being optional, you absolutely get the better service you're paying for.

namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe
I hear naturopaths work wonders

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

James Baud posted:

So, this is peripherally finance related in one of the few Canada threads on the forum.

I was wondering, does anyone have any experience with private "executive" healthcare facilities in Canada? Particularly Vancouver, but I'd settle for hearing about wherever else... I'm beginning to get annoyed, despite a high threshold, at my GP and several specialists for wasting my time with pointless follow-up visits stringing me along for months before doing additional referrals or ordering more expensive (govt covered) tests and am flirting with whether this might be a less annoying route to take.

This is kind of driven by a ongoing undiagnosed health issue, but more generally my past experience with private surgeries is that, private care being optional, you absolutely get the better service you're paying for.

I’m in healthcare in Vancouver. A family member of mine goes to a place like you’re describing, I’ll ask them what it’s called. I believe it’s probably quite expensive though.

Evis
Feb 28, 2007
Flying Spaghetti Monster

It’s called Washington state. It’s a pretty short drive.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
So how does selling a metric shiteload of shares impact your taxes if you've held them for over two years? They're exempt from capital gains at that point, so do they just go under income and jump your tax bracket way the gently caress up?

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

Why are they exempt from capital gains?

James Baud
May 24, 2015

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Rime posted:

So how does selling a metric shiteload of shares impact your taxes if you've held them for over two years? They're exempt from capital gains at that point, so do they just go under income and jump your tax bracket way the gently caress up?

Schedule 3 in Canada, though some tax software will just call it "capital gains". Not exempt in the slightest.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
Ahh, right, you pay tax on the difference less 50% if held for more than two years. Whew. Brutal, but better than a tax bracket jump that high.

namaste friends
Sep 18, 2004

by Smythe

Rime posted:

Ahh, right, you pay tax on the difference less 50% if held for more than two years. Whew. Brutal, but better than a tax bracket jump that high.

Look at this bougie motherfucker complaining about cap gains taxes

Imma make you first against the wall

James Baud
May 24, 2015

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Rime posted:

Ahh, right, you pay tax on the difference less 50% if held for more than two years. Whew. Brutal, but better than a tax bracket jump that high.

Stop saying two years, you're not looking at Canadian stuff.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

James Baud posted:

Stop saying two years, you're not looking at Canadian stuff.

Yeah this.

Reggie Died
Mar 24, 2004
Two questions;

1) I'm looking to transfer cash + stock-in-kind from my TD Waterhouse TFSA to my Questrade TFSA. What happens to dividends when this transfer happens? For example, FTS has a record date of Feb 15th, and payment date of March 1st. If I transfer-in-kind tomorrow, does the dividend follow the stock, follow the TD account, or disappear? To make matters more complicated, I have my TD account set up to synthetically DRIP, and it usually takes ~1.5 week to get the extra stock + cash into my account. So waiting to make the transfer until the dividend clears will just set up an issue for another stock.

2) RRSP refund; re-contribute into RRSP right away, or use it to max out TFSA early in the year, and monthly contribute to RRSP? I've always read the former is the way to go, but I usually like to min-max my RRSP contributions near the end of the year after my bonuses roll in and I have a better picture of my overall line 105.

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Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

James Baud posted:

Stop saying two years, you're not looking at Canadian stuff.

http://madanca.com/blog/taxation-of-stock-options-for-employees-in-canada/

quote:

If you meet one of these two conditions, you can claim a tax deduction equal to ½ of the taxable benefit, or $3.50 in this example (50% x $7).

You have held the shares for at least two years after you have purchased them
The exercise price is at least equal to the fair market value of the shares when they were granted to you

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