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Thanatosian posted:Do you really think the cost of property ownership has gone up 100% in the last 15 years? Because I don't. I don't think the price of rent right now has anything at all to do with the expenses associated with maintaining tenant property; it has everything to do with the amount landlords can get away with charging. I don't think they'll pass on that cost to renters because I don't think they can. If you think they are raking in profits in excess of what they should retain, we have normal taxes for that. edit: DrNutt posted:Yeah but people do support things that help them because they can't wave a magic wand and have full communism now or whatever. Like, I actively support higher minimum wages, single payer healthcare, and pretty much everything else that a modern society should guarantee it's citizens. I am also supportive of nationalized/socialized housing. But for the moment I have to live in the world we're stuck with, and since rising property taxes directly impact me then I am going to oppose them in favor of taxes which impact the wealthy more significantly, like a progressive income tax. twodot fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 20:54
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So what areas of Portland are the "bad areas" (e.g. high crime)?
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Feb 22, 2018 21:03
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twodot posted:The cost of property ownership hasn't gone up 100%, but the value of the opportunities landlords could be taking advantage of instead of renting housing probably has. If you give them additional taxes that they can't pass on, they'll just become a grocery store or an office building or whatever that produces similar value but doesn't pay those taxes. It won't happen immediately or even quickly, but "rent apartments to people" aren't the only business landlords are watching when they set prices.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:05
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I feel like you guys are talking about two different kinds of “landlords”.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:08
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twodot posted:Ok, so you are openly "gently caress you got mine" when it comes to renters paying property tax, but my problem is that I have a crab bucket mentality? I am openly "I need to survive in a lovely capitalist economy so long as that is what we have to live with right now."
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Feb 22, 2018 21:12
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Thanatosian posted:I really cannot imagine most landlords deciding that they'd rather run a grocery store or open whatever sort of office you're imagining them opening than be a landlord. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just cannot imagine a sudden rash of the landed gentry suddenly deciding that they'd rather work for a living. Sell the property to a developer, sure, absolutely, but not work for a living.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:13
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punk rebel ecks posted:So what areas of Portland are the "bad areas" (e.g. high crime)? that’s a very subjective question unless you mean something more like “highest crime in PDX metro,” then https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/portland/crime
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Feb 22, 2018 21:15
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twodot posted:Sorry when I said "they" I meant "the building". Whether that happens because they sold the building to some other capitalist, or because their renting the building to the latest Whirleyball stadium or whatever isn't really relevant to my point that buildings and property lots can do things other than house people, and that the decision to house people is an informed one (at any scale that matters, taxing the guy that rents out his second house isn't going to have predictable effects). HEY NONG MAN posted:I feel like you guys are talking about two different kinds of “landlords”. 
Ham Equity fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 21:24
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Thanatosian posted:You recognize that when I talk about taxes for non-owner occupied property or vacant property, I'm not just talking about residential property, right? edit: Or what if I sell the grocery store its part of the building, but I charge it monthly fees for maintenance? twodot fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 21:31
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Mr. Lobe posted:I believe the gentle poster was using my point to underscore the crab bucket mentality of twodots That probably explains why I had no idea what they were referring to when quoting you! You can never be too sure though.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:34
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twodot posted:No I don't. How do you test whether a grocery store is owner occupied or not? Are you imagining a one to one correspondence between corporation operating a location and owning a location? If I own a building that I rent out to a grocery store, and I proceed to buy the grocery store does it become owner occupied? I think its pretty easy to say whether or not the person who owns the company occupying the building also owns the building itself or the company occupying the building owns the building or whatever. That doesn't seem like a hard thing to figure out.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:38
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Doorknob Slobber posted:I think its pretty easy to say whether or not the person who owns the company occupying the building also owns the building itself
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Feb 22, 2018 21:40
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Property taxes are fine, but get rid of sales tax and fold that into a heavily progressive income tax that hits only higher earners.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:40
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IM DAY DAY IRL posted:that’s a very subjective question unless you mean something more like “highest crime in PDX metro,” then https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/portland/crime Yeah that's perfect thanks. This seems odd though. According to this Portland is more dangerous than Chicago as it has a lower crime safety score. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 21:41
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Peachfart posted:Property taxes are fine, but get rid of sales tax and fold that into a heavily progressive income tax that hits only higher earners. I would honestly take that. The problem is our legislators never propose that, they just keep making ineffectual stabs at an income tax while the sales tax remains.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:44
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twodot posted:No I don't. How do you test whether a grocery store is owner occupied or not? Are you imagining a one to one correspondence between corporation operating a location and owning a location? If I own a building that I rent out to a grocery store, and I proceed to buy the grocery store does it become owner occupied?
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Feb 22, 2018 21:44
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twodot posted:"the person who owns the company" is typically shattered across thousands of stock holders, so I still don't understand this test. or the company that consists of thousands of stock holders could own the building. I understand you're being intentionally thick.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:45
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Peachfart posted:Property taxes are fine, but get rid of sales tax and fold that into a heavily progressive income tax that hits only higher earners. It's funny because for decades I've heard that what Oregon really needs to stabilize its budget is a sales tax.
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Feb 22, 2018 21:46
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Thanatosian posted:I am not imagining anything other than a tax if one entity owns a building and rents it out to another entity. It's real easy to figure out: is there a rental agreement?
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Feb 22, 2018 22:02
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It's funny because for decades I've heard that what Oregon really needs to stabilize its budget is a sales tax. Sales taxes are one of the worst taxes in terms of hitting the poor due to sales tax being on all items. While a property tax is flat, it isn't quite as bad since poorer people don't normally own property in the first place. Just getting rid of sales taxes and replacing them with highly progressive income taxes in Washington would be a large cost of living decrease for our poorer citizens, would help the middle class a bit, and would make the rich pay a bit fairer share.
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Feb 22, 2018 22:08
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Peachfart posted:Sales taxes are one of the worst taxes in terms of hitting the poor due to sales tax being on all items. While a property tax is flat, it isn't quite as bad since poorer people don't normally own property in the first place. It would be hell to administer and wildly impractical and honestly still regressive because everyone buys high end products occasionally, but I've always chuckled at the thought of a selective sales tax that only applied to a product priced in the top 25% of the average price range. I guess I've only ever heard the "what Oregon needs is a sales tax..." from one guy, who was interestingly enough an income tax attorney who did all kinds of stuff sheltering wealth using trusts and whatnot, so that checks out...
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Feb 22, 2018 22:23
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Peachfart posted:Property taxes are fine, but get rid of sales tax and fold that into a heavily progressive income tax that hits only higher earners. This is the dream! At the very least we can make certain goods "untaxed", like food and clothing, some states do this already.
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Feb 22, 2018 22:30
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punk rebel ecks posted:So what areas of Portland are the "bad areas" (e.g. high crime)? The Concordia alehouse. Their beer selection is so good it's criminal.
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Feb 22, 2018 22:30
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ElCondemn posted:This is the dream! At the very least we can make certain goods "untaxed", like food and clothing, some states do this already. You don't tax food, though. At least not grocery food. I can't think of anywhere with a sales tax that doesn't tax hot ready to eat food.
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Feb 22, 2018 22:37
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One of the coolest things I've discovered moving to Portland is how utterly loving stupid the sales tax is.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:31
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https://twitter.com/ByRosenberg/status/967144985903550464
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Feb 23, 2018 23:13
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Is there a non-terrible reading of this?
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Feb 23, 2018 23:19
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cheetah7071 posted:Is there a non-terrible reading of this?
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Feb 23, 2018 23:20
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Radio says it's about internal notes too. Which I'm not sure what I think about.
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Feb 23, 2018 23:23
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Not that Washington doesn't have it's share of troubles caused by its dumbass Libertarian streak, but Washington State politics has always seemed like a pretty good case study in why just electing Democrats isn't enough. You need to participate in primaries and vote for actually good politicians in order for voting D to mean much of anything beyond just treading water.
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Feb 23, 2018 23:47
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BrandorKP posted:Radio says it's about internal notes too. Which I'm not sure what I think about. January 19, 2018 (one month ago): Judge rules that yes, actually, the legislature has to follow the public records law (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/judge-says-state-lawmakers-must-comply-with-public-records-law/) January 23, 2018 (two business days later): State appeals (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/legislature-appeals-to-state-supreme-court-in-public-records-case/) February 21, 2018 (two days ago): SB 6617 announced February 22, 2018 (yesterday): SB 6617 read in the Senate (https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=6617&Year=2017) February 23, 2018 (today): Senate vote on SB 6617, passed 41-7 February 23, 2018 (today): SB 6617 read in the House February 23, 2018 (today): House vote on SB 6617, passed 83-14
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Feb 24, 2018 00:10
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anthonypants posted:There's a timeline in the sidebar of this article in the Columbian, going back from the 1971 public records law to the September 2017 lawsuit from the AP and the Seattle Times and a bunch of other news organizations against the State. Here's the rest of that timeline: It's absolutely astounding how quickly a legislature can move when they all know they're doing something with horrible optics but are nearly unanimous in wanting to do it anyway.
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Feb 24, 2018 00:21
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HOT TAKES HERE, get yer HOT TAKES https://twitter.com/danecarbaugh/status/967174688945287169
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Feb 24, 2018 00:57
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Thanks that clears it up a bit, by "notes" they're meaning work calendars and emails which is a different thing than "notes" in my professional context.
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Feb 24, 2018 01:06
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anthonypants posted:HOT TAKES HERE, get yer HOT TAKES https://twitter.com/danecarbaugh/status/967174688945287169 A couple weeks ago I went to Frankie & Jo's in Seattle for the first time. It was cold as poo poo out so there was no line like usual. It was pretty good but way too pricey, same with all the boutique ice cream shops in the PNW.
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Feb 24, 2018 01:18
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There's an ice cream place in the U District called Sweet Alchemy which used to be a Haagen Dasz and I dunno what exactly it was but whatever extremely unhealthy preservative Haagen Dasz put into their ice cream made it taste way better. It's the same owner so I'm reasonably certain that's what's changed.
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Feb 24, 2018 01:21
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twodot posted:What's a rental agreement? Is an agreement that I grant you a transferable right to use an area of my property in perpetuity contingent on you paying me fees in perpetuity a rental agreement? Ordinarily I'd say "no, that's a condo", but if businesses can trivially restructure rental agreements this way to dodge a tax, the tax doesn't seem very effective. Fundamentally, I don't understand why you would ever care about "an entity owns a building and rents it out to another entity". Who cares if Starbucks is renting out space to Starbucks Japan, a wholly owned subsidiary of Starbucks? Is a non-profit that allows me to occasionally and temporarily run events in their space in exchange for a fee creating a rental agreement? That such a tax can’t be drafted in its legal entirety in 5 minutes on an Internet forum is not an argument that it’s a bad idea.
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Feb 24, 2018 02:05
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anthonypants posted:HOT TAKES HERE, get yer HOT TAKES https://twitter.com/danecarbaugh/status/967174688945287169 if you're talking about the alberta location then all you really need is; 1. Tonallis' is a few blocks down, half the price, no line, and has good donuts i've literally passed the S&S line, walked to tonallis, and walked back with ice cream in hand by the same people I saw on the first pass
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Feb 24, 2018 02:23
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anthonypants posted:HOT TAKES HERE, get yer HOT TAKES https://twitter.com/danecarbaugh/status/967174688945287169 It's a hot take, but it rings true.
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Feb 24, 2018 02:55
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Eggnogium posted:That such a tax can’t be drafted in its legal entirety in 5 minutes on an Internet forum is not an argument that it’s a bad idea.
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Feb 24, 2018 02:55
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