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 We FINALLY get something that can reliably kill enemies! And then we wander around for a while, trying to do dungeons but can't. Now with episode thumbnails!
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Feb 24, 2018 19:23
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| # ? May 9, 2024 21:24 |
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All that guff you're giving the Grapple Beam in Super Metroid, when it's an awesome weapon. It can kill most enemies in 1 hit! Granted that it's utterly useless against the enemies it can't damage, but it's still really useful for clearing out chaff, and there are a lot of chaff enemies in Super Metroid.
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Feb 24, 2018 20:40
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How far have you already played in this? Because I know where the lamp is in this seed, and, uh ... you will not be getting it for a while.
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Feb 24, 2018 20:41
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We actually recorded again last night and are probably up to episode 8 or so. By my best guess, we'll probably beat the whole thing in the next session.
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Feb 24, 2018 20:49
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How about we don't casually imply that things are at the end of the game when the point of the randomizer is that no one knows? Especially since you've admitted to playing the seed in particular that we're playing.
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Feb 24, 2018 21:29
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In fairness I get screwed on the lamp almost every time I play this. It's like the one consistent thing.
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Feb 24, 2018 22:34
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A pretty significant bottleneck I've run into on my run is that I can't find the magic mirror, which closes off a surprisingly large amount of options for exploration. I also got screwed with the lamp but fortunately got the fire rod early on, so I couldn't see in the dark at all but at least could still light torches. It's neat how this run can completely change the way you approach dungeons. A bunch of times I've had to just make trips into dungeons to collect whatever treasures they have then back out to save the rest of the dungeon for later. Makes for a very different experience than vanilla ALttP for sure. I also got the Titan Mitts early on so I was able to go straight to the dark world. I have still yet to actually complete a dungeon.
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Feb 24, 2018 22:45
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You looked up where the lamp was in the spoiler file but weren’t sure what the answer you got meant. I wasn’t sure if you wanted to know the answer.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:03
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Augus posted:A pretty significant bottleneck I've run into on my run is that I can't find the magic mirror, which closes off a surprisingly large amount of options for exploration. I also got screwed with the lamp but fortunately got the fire rod early on, so I couldn't see in the dark at all but at least could still light torches. If you end up in the Dark World without the mirror, you can do a hard save/reload and end up back home. I'm not sure if that's a failsafe in the game itself in case you somehow get to a portal without it, or a failsafe put in by the creators.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:24
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I saw someone a couple weeks ago do the sister to the keysanity version, the random entrance version. So go into hyrule castle, and you end up in a death mountain cave, the other end might spit you out in kakariko. Only a few sort of "givens" from what I saw. 1 - places like the altar with the bat, or the hole in the western edge of Kakariko, or the tree hole where you had to fall into it then exit by stairs were part of a small subset of entrances and exits that were sort of tethered together. 2- seems like most of skull woods was where it should be (due to the above thing about entrance and exits being tied together), but the final section of it could be anywhere. 3 - Ganon's tower and the the final Ganon fight are where they're supposed to be, so no luck in speedrunning the thing by managing a seed where you get a sword from your house, silver arrows from the sanctuary, and enter a random cave to find Ganon. Honestly I don't know which is worse, or more difficult. Probably the entrance randomizer, since all you need to do is forget that you forgot to go in one death mountain cave and whoops, you missed out on a crystal. e: About the failsafe, that's from the randomizer author, I think. Since in the original you can't enter the dark world without major glitches before you get the mirror. Otherwise you end up at the pyramid (except maybe that first quick jump to the Tower of Hera, don't know how it manages that).
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Feb 25, 2018 00:24
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I would love to see how they code this thing to ensure that you can't get stuck somewhere and unable to get to the item required to progress, because that seems like a pain for something like this. Also what happens if you find an upgraded item and then find the base version of that item? I assume that it doesn't overwrite the better version of the item.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:36
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:If you end up in the Dark World without the mirror, you can do a hard save/reload and end up back home. I'm not sure if that's a failsafe in the game itself in case you somehow get to a portal without it, or a failsafe put in by the creators. It was put in by the creators of the randomizer. And yeah I know it's like that, but turns out a LOT of stuff requires you to use the magic mirror to reach something in the light world
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Feb 25, 2018 00:41
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C-Euro posted:Also what happens if you find an upgraded item and then find the base version of that item? I assume that it doesn't overwrite the better version of the item. I think earlier versions had each upgrade in its own chest, and in that case you'd keep the best version. Later versions just make all upgrades tied together, so if for example FP finds the other armor upgrade before he comes back to the library, he'd get the blue mail there and the library would become the red one. As for how the coding goes, it's probably coded to say what items need to reach a given chest. So a chest in Blind's hideout in Kakariko would be coded to be instantly accessible so at least one of those chests within that pool has to open up the next tier of needing a hookshot, or boots, or some other progress item.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:45
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:If you end up in the Dark World without the mirror, you can do a hard save/reload and end up back home. I'm not sure if that's a failsafe in the game itself in case you somehow get to a portal without it, or a failsafe put in by the creators. The latter. And it's intentional, too, because the dwarven blacksmiths or the purple chest can, themselves, have the Mirror.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:53
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Upgraded items, with the exception of the Magic Boomerang for reasons I can't fathom, are all progressive. I believe this existed in vanilla, though it was never actually something you would see without going out of your way (eg. deliberately not getting Blue Mail until you got Red Mail, potentially the Golden Sword drop before getting the Tempered Sword, though the pyramid well might not take base Master Sword).
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Feb 25, 2018 01:20
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FeyerbrandX posted:As for how the coding goes, it's probably coded to say what items need to reach a given chest. So a chest in Blind's hideout in Kakariko would be coded to be instantly accessible so at least one of those chests within that pool has to open up the next tier of needing a hookshot, or boots, or some other progress item. Yep. Essentially, for each chest you enumerate all the possible ways the player can reach the chest, or rather, what item combinations give them access. For example, the room with three chests in the back half of the Hyrule Castle escape can be reached with the following items: * Lamp plus Bombs (lamp gets you through the sewers, bombs break the wall) * Lamp plus Pegasus Boots (through the sewers, dash the wall down) * Power Glove plus Bombs (fall into the room from the cemetary) * Power Glove plus Pegasus Boots Since bombs are always available, you really only need one of glove or lamp to reach the room without sequence breaking. Other examples of location locks:
Once you've done this, you then start allocating items to chests, while making certain that there's always at least one "path" to every item. To pick a simple example, let's say that the waterfall fairy in the Light World has the shovel. That means you need flippers to get the shovel. Let's say that the shovel in turn gives access to the ocarina, which, as you may recall, is required to reach Misery Mire in the Dark World. Then the flippers should not be placed in Misery Mire -- if they were, then there'd be no path to the shovel. So that's an example of an impossible situation to avoid. I haven't looked at the code for the randomizer, but I expect it works something like this:
Most of the work of making this possible is in enumerating all the different ways a given chest can be reached.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:21
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It kind of works like that, but the placement actually does it in reverse order. So it starts off by assuming you can reach everything, and as it places more items assumes you can reach less and less things based on what has been placed already. It used to work the other way around, but that led to a bias for placing important items in early locations.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:39
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There seems to be a few more failsafes, too. I know I didn't have the lantern but the game acted like I did when I escaped with Zelda (but nowhere else until I found it for real). But that could be a feature of playing on normal. If I could just find those loving flippers and the bow I'd be pretty much set.
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Feb 25, 2018 02:03
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:There seems to be a few more failsafes, too. I know I didn't have the lantern but the game acted like I did when I escaped with Zelda (but nowhere else until I found it for real). But that could be a feature of playing on normal. Yup, Normal mode gives you the light cones during the escape sequence. This actually caused a huge WTF moment during a weekly race, because the Power Gloves were inside that bomb blocked side room in escape, but the drop tables had nothing during the escape drop bombs, so you had to realize you'd have a light cone on a second trip through; nearly every runner in that race took nearly a half hour to get them. I'll never forget that bit of routing minutae though! 
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Feb 25, 2018 02:12
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Materant posted:Upgraded items, with the exception of the Magic Boomerang for reasons I can't fathom, are all progressive. It's because the unupgraded Boomerang is better since it doesn't lag the game! Gotta save the frames.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:53
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 Time to dive into the Dark World without the mirror and pray we've got an escape solution!
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Feb 25, 2018 18:01
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Yeah, it's called the Select button. You're never stuck in the Dark World, just save and quit There's also no such thing as two-way warps. The closest thing is the temporary warp that the Mirror leaves behind. That Thieves' Town though, dang
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Feb 25, 2018 18:51
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Just fired up my own random game. Decided on an open start. Right away uncle gave me flippers and I found the hammer in the Kakariko cave. This is gonna be fun  E: This is just a standard game but I'm considering starting over and doing a Keysanity run instead. This way might end up becoming monotonous. Does the game tell you which dungeons the keys work in when you get them? Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 20:59
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Mak0rz posted:Just fired up my own random game. Decided on an open start. Right away uncle gave me flippers and I found the hammer in the Kakariko cave. This is gonna be fun Not only does it tell you, it lists how many keys of each dungeon you have and if you have the boss key in your inventory menu. Since it also mixes up maps and compasses it'll tell you which dungeon that's for when you get them as well.
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Feb 25, 2018 21:07
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Eopia posted:Not only does it tell you, it lists how many keys of each dungeon you have and if you have the boss key in your inventory menu. Since it also mixes up maps and compasses it'll tell you which dungeon that's for when you get them as well. Okay this owns. Time to make another ROM! The Triforce Hunt mode seems pretty interesting too. Has anyone tried it?
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Feb 25, 2018 21:09
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The Digging Game will always have the item in the first 30 digs (and it'll always do the raise over the head animation and fanfare, which is useful if it happens to be otherwise identical to normal prizes, like 20 rupees). The Chest Game will always have the item in the first two chests you open, but it can be in either order. (Again, important to know if it happens to be otherwise identical to a prize you can otherwise get there like 100 rupees.)Eopia posted:Not only does it tell you, it lists how many keys of each dungeon you have and if you have the boss key in your inventory menu. Since it also mixes up maps and compasses it'll tell you which dungeon that's for when you get them as well. You can also view which maps and compasses you have by pressing I think select in the menu. This is pretty worthless, but you can.
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Feb 25, 2018 21:28
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Xenoveritas posted:The Digging Game will always have the item in the first 30 digs (and it'll always do the raise over the head animation and fanfare, which is useful if it happens to be otherwise identical to normal prizes, like 20 rupees). The Chest Game will always have the item in the first two chests you open, but it can be in either order. (Again, important to know if it happens to be otherwise identical to a prize you can otherwise get there like 100 rupees.) I was wondering this as well. I'm glad they made that more manageable. drat this hack's authors do good work. Another question: considering bomb and arrow expansions can be found in the wild, does that mean you can get items for dropping 100 bucks into the lake fairy pool? Xenoveritas posted:You can also view which maps and compasses you have by pressing I think select in the menu. This is pretty worthless, but you can. Yeah that's what does it. Not exactly helpful because I can navigate these dungeons with my eyes closed but oh well
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Feb 25, 2018 21:39
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Mak0rz posted:Another question: considering bomb and arrow expansions can be found in the wild, does that mean you can get items for dropping 100 bucks into the lake fairy pool? They removed that. They also changed the waterfall fairy into a room with two chests. Color Printer fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 21:41
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Xenoveritas posted:The Digging Game will always have the item in the first 30 digs (and it'll always do the raise over the head animation and fanfare, which is useful if it happens to be otherwise identical to normal prizes, like 20 rupees). You can also recognize the prize item because it has a wider trajectory when it gets unearthed, compared to normal items which just go a short distance.
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Feb 25, 2018 22:10
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I just found the magic boomerang. Will the normal boomerang overwrite it if I find it? Same question goes for swords or anything else upgradable, really.
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Feb 25, 2018 22:32
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Mak0rz posted:I just found the magic boomerang. Will the normal boomerang overwrite it if I find it? No to both. Magic and regular boomerang toggle because apparently lag for speedrunners. But Armor, Shields and Swords (e: and mitts) will go in sequential order. They're all quantumly entangled or something.
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Feb 25, 2018 22:39
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FeyerbrandX posted:No to both. Magic and regular boomerang toggle because apparently lag for speedrunners. But Armor, Shields and Swords (e: and mitts) will go in sequential order. They're all quantumly entangled or something. Thanks! I should know better than to expect this hack to dick me because I've been nothing but impressed with it so far. Along with that boomerang I found the mirror and the level 3 sword in the same room (one of those loot caves with multiple chests in it). Score!
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Feb 25, 2018 22:42
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I've also tried starting my own randomiser run, and found the Power Glove in the first chest in the Eastern Palace, and then the Titan's Mitt 40 seconds later. Except now the only places I can think to go all have enemies that do upwards of a full heart (usually two hearts) and I can't get anything done because I'm dying instantly.
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Feb 26, 2018 03:39
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Mak0rz posted:Yeah that's what does it. Not exactly helpful because I can navigate these dungeons with my eyes closed but oh well
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Feb 26, 2018 03:58
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Inco posted:I've also tried starting my own randomiser run, and found the Power Glove in the first chest in the Eastern Palace, and then the Titan's Mitt 40 seconds later. Except now the only places I can think to go all have enemies that do upwards of a full heart (usually two hearts) and I can't get anything done because I'm dying instantly. Yeah once you find items like the hammer and Titan's Mitt the game kinda gets blown open. That's why I decided to switch to Keysanity Augus posted:I forgot if it was the dungeon or the compass but one of those lets you see whether the dungeon contains a pendant or a crystal, iirc. So that's something they're still useful for. Ah that's why they started showing up on the map. Thanks!
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Feb 26, 2018 04:05
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Augus posted:I forgot if it was the dungeon or the compass but one of those lets you see whether the dungeon contains a pendant or a crystal, iirc. So that's something they're still useful for. I can't believe the compass (or map) has a new feature. It
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Feb 26, 2018 04:15
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If you get the map for a dungeon, it'll show on the overworld map whether it's a pendant or a crystal. If you get the compass, when you're in the dungeon you can see how many more items you have left to find. If you want to see high-level play of a Keysanity seed, here's a race with Andy, who participated in the AGDQ (non-keysanity) randomizer race.
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Feb 26, 2018 04:19
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gently caress this hack for forcing me to explore Skull Woods. I haven't done that in twenty years 
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Feb 26, 2018 04:25
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 We decide to be smart guys and go visit Misery Mire much earlier than any reasonable person ever would. Next set of videos will start going up once I've had a chance to finish editing them all.
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Feb 26, 2018 18:21
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| # ? May 9, 2024 21:24 |
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Mak0rz posted:gently caress this hack for forcing me to explore Skull Woods. I haven't done that in twenty years Skull Woods is mostly dead ends and worthless. There's surprisingly little you need to visit to get all potential items within it. Another thing that's worth looking up is how many items can appear in a dungeon - if the only items remaining are the Map and Compass (and, depending on dungeon, the Big Key), you can just ignore everything else and bee-line to the boss. Or, depending on goal, just ignore the dungeon entirely. With the Ganon goal, there's no need to do dungeons that don't have crystals - probably. Getting the Green Pendant gets you an item from Sahasralnotlookinguphisname, and getting all three lets you pull an item out of the Master Sword pedestal. If these items are necessary (and in key-sanity, it's always possible for a required key to end up behind them) - welp.
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Feb 26, 2018 20:22
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