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I am all in favor of awesome space machinery that laughs at physics if makes this more fun, tbqh. They also could be great endgame goals in future updates! 
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Feb 23, 2018 14:52
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dead comedy forums posted:I am all in favor of awesome space machinery that laughs at physics if makes this more fun, tbqh. They also could be great endgame goals in future updates! Count me in. I do not need a chemistry lesson when playing this game, although it's nice that it generally gets the chemistry right.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:15
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Its really cool how everyone plays a little different and learning things from people that I never noticed. ONI has so much variation in how it can be played. I don't care for realistic physics/chemistry simulation. I do wish heat had better convection mechanics.
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Feb 23, 2018 16:58
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The physics fudging is necessary for performance and fun both as much as I want some of the weird details shored up like plants not being able to use CO2. A world of accurate mass and energy balances would be cool but ultimately less fun oh and also need a super computer because it's a real, accurate FEA system at that point. I just want a loving fluid-fluid heat exchanger. Pipes going to hot or cold places is fine I guess and you can sort of approximate it with pipes running through a pool of working fluid but it's like the one until operation glaringly missing. It's slightly complicated so my wishful thinking is it's on the roadmap with it's own whole release.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:37
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zedprime posted:The physics fudging is necessary for performance and fun both as much as I want some of the weird details shored up like plants not being able to use CO2. A world of accurate mass and energy balances would be cool but ultimately less fun oh and also need a super computer because it's a real, accurate FEA system at that point. Kerbal Space Program has insanely accurate and realistic physics and it doesn't require a supercomputer to play.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:41
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KSP is a rocket simulator though, and rockets are extremely simple compared to fluid mechanics of gasses in big, complex rooms.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:48
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It's not even that, KSP fudges a lot so this is already about the KSP of physical chemistry. Start adding in n-bodies, deformation physics, fuel chemistries, voxel aero sims etc. and KSP would similarly need a super computer and also be less fun. Which is arguably demonstrated by mods that add each of those to KSP. There's more room for newer/accurate sims in ONI at this point though so yeah I'd like to see it worked on but the current philosophy seems to be "physical chemistry through the eyes of a 6th grader" and most of the calculation or game system shortcuts seem to meet that cut.
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Feb 23, 2018 17:58
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zedprime posted:The physics fudging is necessary for performance and fun both as much as I want some of the weird details shored up like plants not being able to use CO2. A world of accurate mass and energy balances would be cool but ultimately less fun oh and also need a super computer because it's a real, accurate FEA system at that point. i'm p sure that an actual coal-fired generator would produce so much co2 that everyone would suffocate in the entire asteroid within a single cycle
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Feb 23, 2018 18:12
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I noticed that vacuum space is very cold, which makes sense. But given the insulating properties of a vacuum, it kind of makes sense that creating a 1 tile space around areas you don't want to transfer heat are surrounded by one. My CO2 scrubber created a vacuum below it in a 1x12 space and I am thinking of doing that all around. You could insulate your farms so that you don't need to worry about heat much if at all. The door is the only weak point, and you can use other means to cool that area down.
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Feb 23, 2018 18:20
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Space isn't hot or cold, from what physics phds have told me. Heat is a huge issue in space because there isn't a medium to radiate heat into.
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Feb 23, 2018 18:25
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Hot or cold is related to movement of molecules. The colder it gets the less they move, or their lack of movement dictates how cold it gets. Either way we can't get to absolute zero or a perfect vacuum because there is always energy transfer , but in theory, and in a game it would be possible. Vacuum insulation seems like an interesting idea to mess around with for cheap perfect heat retention/prevention. I had something like below, I'll post some screenshots once I mess around a bit more with it. A small room taking in CO2 from my Natural Gas generators, and two mesh floor pieces which I used to get rid of some water in the room. That left a one tile space between the water and the floor. The CO2 scrubber created a vacuum in the space below it, even a tile below the top of the machine, which I hadn't seen before. You would need CO2 in all of the spaces to use this particular solution through || || || |CO2 Scruber| || -----------------------| |---------------| |------------- Vacuum space ------------------------------Water ------------------------
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Feb 23, 2018 18:35
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It's fine that things don't work like they do in the real world, the problem is there are no tooltips or anything to explain any of this so it's an endless game of trial and error to see what things actually do and by the time you've figured out it's doing something off your colonists are on the path to death by heat.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:07
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Yes, but the game is still in development, it isn't even feature complete so that should be a given. The game right now is a huge learning experience and that is part of the fun.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:20
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Hamelekim posted:Yes, but the game is still in development, it isn't even feature complete so that should be a given. The game right now is a huge learning experience and that is part of the fun. There's feature complete and there's a one sentence tooltip explaining what something does.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:23
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socialsecurity posted:There's feature complete and there's a one sentence tooltip explaining what something does. there's released and there's playable beta
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Feb 23, 2018 19:37
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Hamelekim posted:Hot or cold is related to movement of molecules. The colder it gets the less they move, or their lack of movement dictates how cold it gets.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:44
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enraged_camel posted:Kerbal Space Program has insanely accurate and realistic physics and it doesn't require a supercomputer to play. Not really. Orbital mechanics are an approximation, planets are moving on rails and you're only affected by gravity of one thing at a time. Because of that Lagrange points don't exist There is no deformation in parts ever, only in joints. Pumping fuel around is magic, not only it's incredibly fast and uses no power but also, it shifts your center of mass around without creating acceleration. Because of that you can create fuel tank pendulum that'll change orbits without engine. Aerodynamic effects are partially faked by assigning magical numbers of lift and drag to every part rather than calculating based on the shape of whole vessel.
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Feb 23, 2018 19:59
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zedprime posted:The physics fudging is necessary for performance and fun both as much as I want some of the weird details shored up like plants not being able to use CO2. A world of accurate mass and energy balances would be cool but ultimately less fun oh and also need a super computer because it's a real, accurate FEA system at that point. EXCEPT for a base-building sim/game where planning out and constructing power/ventilation/plumbing systems to manage your atmosphere is actually kindof an important strategic factor, ONI's gas pressure/flow is a little too dumbed down. e.g. Algae Deoxydizers should basically never shut down from 'too much pressure' because that "2000g of oxygen" will push the nearby "100g of chlorine" out of the way, which equalizes pressure waaaay faster than diffusion/mixing ever takes place. Especially for games where fun is more important than precision, you can simplify the thermal/hydraulic/structural/etc computations in nerdy sim/games by pre-calculating an approximated transfer coefficient matrix to make a much a coarser mesh for that gives results similar to FEA without being completely counterintuitive. Just do the hard crunching every when you need to, like once at worldgen and every N seconds (only if necessary and only within a relevant volume, not the entire map) it to account for building/digging/etc. That way it still simulates the physics with ~97% 'realism' but takes <10% as many calculations per tick. (e: ^^ yeah kinda like that, except for simplifying natural gas flowing down a mineshaft/etc) Also for a more easily visualizable example like pathfinding: as far as I can tell Dwarf Fortress slows to a crawl largely because it uses the "A* Search" which method has logarithmic complexity and it does a lot of pathfinding operations (I don't know what method ONI uses but it doesn't actually matter since the logic doesn't change much.) Suppose we've got a situation where an electrician decides to go throw some berries at the chef and the absolute most optimal path between the coordinates [x1y1 in hydroponics]to[x2y2 in kitchen] is 300 steps... instead of brute-force calculating generating the path each time, you could instead use a system that has a rough grid of automatically-generated waypoints and each time you need to plan a new route just find the nearest waypoint [hydro]to[[doorA]] and [[ladderB]]to[kitchen], because an hour ago we already decided there's a route [[doorA]]to[[ladderB]] that only takes 6 nodes to plan, even if the dude ends up taking 308 steps to get there but we don't care because the game is doing millions of calculations every second. The best thing to do here would be to let the user toggle each speed/precision tradeoff. (and/or set it to auto-switch when the game starts slowing down.) silentsnack fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 20:12
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The main thing they need to add to this game is changing world conditions and events. In one of Klei's other games, Don't Starve, preparedness is a huge driving factor. You need to prepare for the next season well in advance because world conditions change drastically. In addition, there are various events, such as giant monsters who attack your base at certain times, so you need to make sure you can defeat them, or have secondary bases you can fall back on if you need to. That's the big thing that is missing from ONI right now, imo: there are no milestones you are working towards. There is nothing that makes you go, "man, I better have exosuits before Cycle 100 or I'm hosed!" So you can build stuff until you reach kind of a pseudo-equilibrium and then you are, for all intents and purposes, done. I know it's a simulation game and not a survival game, but having some sort of structure around progression would go a long way towards encouraging players to build bigger and bigger bases.
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Feb 23, 2018 20:31
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temple posted:I'd be interested in seeing it. This is a heatmap of the setup. Not all the CO2 is out at this point but eventually it is all sucked up and becomes a total vacuum. I'm going to mess around with it over the weekend to see if it can really block heat as it should. In theory you could start at the bottom, dig out the sides, and as the CO2 sinks, it is replaced by vacuum until the entire space is a vacuum. 
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Feb 23, 2018 22:55
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vaccum works great as insulation, you can also gradually build a 3 layer thick wall and then deconstruct the inner block and it works since liquids and gas don't flow diagonally. Though it's pretty time consuming and insulated tiles are good enough there's no reason to bother (with the exception of heavi-watt plates, do this because it's metal and conducts like woah)
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Feb 23, 2018 23:00
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Are Bristle Blossoms bugged? I've got a few in hydro tiles in a greenhouse and they've gone through a few harvest cycles, but I don't think I've ever seen them drop a seed. My dupes are hardly starving, but still, it's weird.
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Feb 24, 2018 20:46
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LaserShark posted:Are Bristle Blossoms bugged? I've got a few in hydro tiles in a greenhouse and they've gone through a few harvest cycles, but I don't think I've ever seen them drop a seed. My dupes are hardly starving, but still, it's weird. I think farmable plants have 10% chance to drop seeds now.
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Feb 24, 2018 20:54
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LaserShark posted:Are Bristle Blossoms bugged? I've got a few in hydro tiles in a greenhouse and they've gone through a few harvest cycles, but I don't think I've ever seen them drop a seed. My dupes are hardly starving, but still, it's weird. Something feels up with seed production I'm noticing the same thing I used to get them pretty regularly even after the job update now I am on cycle like 50 with a greenhouse and still have maybe 10-15 total mealwood seeds and maybe 4 blossom seeds. Also in the past 3 maps I've seen maybe 1 wheezewort per cold biome if I am lucky.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:06
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socialsecurity posted:Something feels up with seed production I'm noticing the same thing I used to get them pretty regularly even after the job update now I am on cycle like 50 with a greenhouse and still have maybe 10-15 total mealwood seeds and maybe 4 blossom seeds. Also in the past 3 maps I've seen maybe 1 wheezewort per cold biome if I am lucky. I don't know about the farm station and mealwood. People have discouraged it for some reason. There wheezeworts are out there but not as numerous. I have about 8 in one biome and 1 each in the other ones.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:24
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temple posted:I don't know about the farm station and mealwood. People have discouraged it for some reason. There wheezeworts are out there but not as numerous. I have about 8 in one biome and 1 each in the other ones. They reduced it a while back but this is like zero I even check for buried seeds it's weird.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:47
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You need a farm guy to get more seeds, that said I haven't been doing a comparison. I usually bring in a farm guy once I have 6 dupes or so.
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Feb 25, 2018 15:50
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I just finished my first end game base. Sleet wheat pissed me off so I'm going to restart. Transit tubes have weird connection logic but seeing dupes teleport around like ninjas is cool. Things I did right 500k food surplus helped immensely A power bus was helpful Conserved water by relooping it in circuits Made O2 circuits but those are only useful locally Saved power and heat with automation A fully functional med-bay saved key dupes early on Made a specific electrolyzer setup for hydrogen and pumped the hot O2 to exosuits Used exo suits in key places to avoid drama with temps, water, and gas mixing Temp shift plates are clutch in some places Conductive wire was helpful, such a small improvement that saves time. Changes for the future Build 3 wide vertical columns like ladder/tube/fire pole instead of the standard ladder in the middle. Tap all nat gas geysers because power starts to wane after plastic manufacturing Go sleet wheat earlier because its the most consistent ingredient Make insulated pipes for sleet wheat Horde PH2O! Sterilize PH2O offsite from the pepper farm. It got too hot! Make more buses, for hydrogen, hot air (exo suits), PH2O, nat gas Automate charging standard batteries More polymer pressers Maybe automate gas/liquid shutoffs Stuff I still don't understand The phama chamber is dumb and doesn't seem to be an improvement over med-beds What is the best material for temp shift plates and pipes for temp balancing? temple fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 17:07
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Hamelekim posted:This is a heatmap of the setup. Not all the CO2 is out at this point but eventually it is all sucked up and becomes a total vacuum. I'm going to mess around with it over the weekend to see if it can really block heat as it should.
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Feb 25, 2018 17:09
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Vacuum means nothing to transfer the waste heat of the skimmer so it'll accumulate and eventually overheat. If an item doesn't generate heat, it won't get hotter.
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Feb 25, 2018 17:19
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temple posted:Build 3 wide vertical columns like ladder/tube/fire pole instead of the standard ladder in the middle. Dupes can only jump one square, though.
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Feb 25, 2018 21:56
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Roadie posted:Dupes can only jump one square, though. Can they jump from a ladder to a fire pole?
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Feb 25, 2018 21:58
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Roadie posted:[Dupes can only jump one squarquoe, though. The usual arrangement is gap/ladder/gap then fire pole/ladder/gap. I'm going to do ladder/gap/fire pole with tubes going in the gap later. Won't need the poles any more. 
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Feb 26, 2018 00:06
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Lorini posted:You need a farm guy to get more seeds, that said I haven't been doing a comparison. I usually bring in a farm guy once I have 6 dupes or so. Yeah, I've got a farmer (the only one allowed to harvest) working them, and still nothing. It might be confirmation bias, but my mealworm farm got built up really quickly, and I'm sitting with 40 seeds in reserve. Bristle Blossom seeds just don't seem to drop.
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Feb 26, 2018 00:30
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Got this game today and I don't think I'm doing too bad...for a beginner at least. My first game I figured out that air "molecules" basically clump together in a tile and swap all at once with an adjacent tile randomly (affected by gravity of course) like bejeweled tiles and that 2x wide ladders make a far, far better ventilation than 1x wide ladders. I've taken this second map as far as I can and I've learned that algae terrariums are water hogs and should mainly be used to scrub CO2 and not generate O2 (and they really should generate a trickle of algae, not consume it, especially for the amount of water they suck up) and that I really should have rushed a generator far, far faster so my dudes weren't spending half the day running on a hamster wheel. Oh and don't set up an electrolyzer until you have a gas pump/separator set up (and the separator doesn't actually pump, derp). Doubly don't set up the electrolyzer below the bedrooms unless you want dudes suffocating in their sleep. I think that's a half decent second-base.
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Feb 26, 2018 06:55
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I played this until almost 6am Last night... I thought my problem was going to be running out of water and o2. What happened though was lack of food. I was having power issues and my food machines were basically gone. What I didn't realize is exactly how much my duplicants needed food. I lost 10 to starvation before I fully realized the extent of the food problem.
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Feb 26, 2018 08:12
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DropsySufferer posted:I played this until almost 6am Last night... I thought my problem was going to be running out of water and o2. Yes, each duplicant consumes 1000 calories per cycle. 1500 if they have bottomless stomach trait.
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Feb 26, 2018 08:53
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It's easy to underestimate food needs because you start with a fairly decent buffer, so you don't tend to get a good sense of how much food is being consumed until you run out, and if you haven't already set up your farming system by that point, you're basically hosed.
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Feb 26, 2018 09:13
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Alkydere posted:Got this game today and I don't think I'm doing too bad...for a beginner at least. My first game I figured out that air "molecules" basically clump together in a tile and swap all at once with an adjacent tile randomly (affected by gravity of course) like bejeweled tiles and that 2x wide ladders make a far, far better ventilation than 1x wide ladders. I've taken this second map as far as I can and I've learned that algae terrariums are water hogs and should mainly be used to scrub CO2 and not generate O2 (and they really should generate a trickle of algae, not consume it, especially for the amount of water they suck up) and that I really should have rushed a generator far, far faster so my dudes weren't spending half the day running on a hamster wheel. Oh and don't set up an electrolyzer until you have a gas pump/separator set up (and the separator doesn't actually pump, derp). Doubly don't set up the electrolyzer below the bedrooms unless you want dudes suffocating in their sleep. Quick tip, there is no benefit to individual rooms this isn't Rimworld, use the room overlay to build a barracks you can typically fit 6ish people in each one and they get a stamina boost. Also do not use an electrolyzer too early they generate a shitton of heat which early on you have no way of combatting yet.
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Feb 26, 2018 09:42
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If you want to insulate something just use your vanilla tiles made with abyssalite. It might as well be called 100% insulating for all intents and purposes.
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Feb 26, 2018 09:50
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