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Milo and POTUS posted:What was the reason for this? I mean why was it infeasible in the North/West? Growing season/soil types/ etc? afaik plant types. the new world slave economy only really worked with ridiculously profitable cash crops like cotton, sugar, tobacco, or indigo. Food crops were grown, but mostly for local plantation consumption with any extra being sold off for extra cash. This is also why the south had so many food shortages during the civil war, as the small farmers who actually grew most of the food were off getting shot and the biggest supplier was the north, who cut off all trade. Since the west was too dry for any real agriculture (remember that the only reason the great plains are a bread basket is due to a whooole lotta irrigation and sod-busting) and the North too cold for the big money crops slavery proved impractical there.
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Feb 24, 2018 18:16
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Agean90 posted:afaik plant types. the new world slave economy only really worked with ridiculously profitable cash crops like cotton, sugar, tobacco, or indigo. Food crops were grown, but mostly for local plantation consumption with any extra being sold off for extra cash. This is also why the south had so many food shortages during the civil war, as the small farmers who actually grew most of the food were off getting shot and the biggest supplier was the north, who cut off all trade. Since the west was too dry for any real agriculture (remember that the only reason the great plains are a bread basket is due to a whooole lotta irrigation and sod-busting) and the North too cold for the big money crops slavery proved impractical there. Also expanding slavery in the north at the time would have involved convincing the North to accept slavery in their states, which hahahahanope.
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Feb 24, 2018 18:21
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Milo and POTUS posted:What was the reason for this? I mean why was it infeasible in the North/West? Growing season/soil types/ etc? Not physically, politically. Even before the 1820 Missouri compromise which set a line of "no new slave states north of 36°30′ in the Louisiana purchase territory, except Missouri", new states being formed in the north had routinely established themselves without slavery. The Missouri compromise line would end up voided later, but not with successful slave states north of it. And for the west, when all that land was taken from Mexico it ended up that slavery never really had time to penetrate into it beyond Texas. There was small scale slaving in these southwest territories and minor confederate sentiment later, but both were easily crushed by Union forces coming out of California, which had been admitted as a free state. So even without the civil war happening, the North was a hard barrier to slave expansion and to the west the California government wasn't in favor of it, making it very difficult to expand slavery more in the US. The slavers simply would need to look elsewhere. fishmech fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 18:25
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Agean90 posted:afaik plant types. the new world slave economy only really worked with ridiculously profitable cash crops like cotton, sugar, tobacco, or indigo. Food crops were grown, but mostly for local plantation consumption with any extra being sold off for extra cash. This is also why the south had so many food shortages during the civil war, as the small farmers who actually grew most of the food were off getting shot and the biggest supplier was the north, who cut off all trade. Since the west was too dry for any real agriculture (remember that the only reason the great plains are a bread basket is due to a whooole lotta irrigation and sod-busting) and the North too cold for the big money crops slavery proved impractical there. Additionally, the kind of big money agriculture that was common on the North and the West - ranching and herding - was generally not done with slave labor in any event.
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Feb 24, 2018 18:53
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Agean90 posted:afaik plant types. the new world slave economy only really worked with ridiculously profitable cash crops like cotton, sugar, tobacco, or indigo. Food crops were grown, but mostly for local plantation consumption with any extra being sold off for extra cash. This is also why the south had so many food shortages during the civil war, as the small farmers who actually grew most of the food were off getting shot and the biggest supplier was the north, who cut off all trade. Since the west was too dry for any real agriculture (remember that the only reason the great plains are a bread basket is due to a whooole lotta irrigation and sod-busting) and the North too cold for the big money crops slavery proved impractical there. By the 1850s or so anyway; one reason you see slavery dying off in the northern and even the non-deep southern states is that slaves shot the hell up in price after the slave trade was outlawed. In the 1780s using slaves to run your random agricultural farm in New York was good business sense; by 1850s it was much, much more profitable to sell them down the river to a cotton planter in Mississippi. Northern abolitionism was as much a symptom of economics as anything else, it's easy to oppose something that doesn't have a local business lobby any more.
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Feb 24, 2018 19:07
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feedmegin posted:By the 1850s or so anyway; one reason you see slavery dying off in the northern and even the non-deep southern states is that slaves shot the hell up in price after the slave trade was outlawed. In the 1780s using slaves to run your random agricultural farm in New York was good business sense; by 1850s it was much, much more profitable to sell them down the river to a cotton planter in Mississippi. Northern abolitionism was as much a symptom of economics as anything else, it's easy to oppose something that doesn't have a local business lobby any more. Just before the Civil War, wasn't Virginia's biggest export slaves?
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Feb 24, 2018 19:24
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bewbies posted:Is it bad that I kind of like that one of St Stephens? Yes, it's an objectively hosed up rendition of St Stephens. The tower is melting and growing  He also got hosed up lighting. The sun is casting a shadow from over the near building, which means that the corner of the St Stephens Tower that faces the viewer ought to be illuminated. Also, nothing else seems to be casting a distinct shadow. To be fair, he never made it into art school, but I think they were right to reject him.  Better paintings of St. Stephens. Livelier crowd, the features of the tower actually cast shadow  Some post card poo poo that captures the tower better anyways 
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Feb 24, 2018 19:56
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feedmegin posted:By the 1850s or so anyway; one reason you see slavery dying off in the northern and even the non-deep southern states is that slaves shot the hell up in price after the slave trade was outlawed. In the 1780s using slaves to run your random agricultural farm in New York was good business sense; by 1850s it was much, much more profitable to sell them down the river to a cotton planter in Mississippi. Northern abolitionism was as much a symptom of economics as anything else, it's easy to oppose something that doesn't have a local business lobby any more. Even before that trade in the slaves was lucrative as gently caress. Jefferson did the math and figured out that he made more money from the "natural increase" in his slaves than from the actual farming that happened at Montecello. quote:"I consider a woman who brings a child every two years as more profitable than the best man of the farm," Jefferson remarked in 1820. "What she produces is an addition to the capital, while his labors disappear in mere consumption." https://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/property edit: this, of course, puts his loving some of his slaves in an entirely worse light.
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Feb 24, 2018 19:58
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Cyrano4747 posted:
which is not an easy thing to do
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Feb 24, 2018 20:02
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GAZ-71 and GAZ-72 (candidate for the role of the SU-76). Queue: Production and combat of the KV-1S, L-10 and L-30, Strv m/21, Landsverk prototypes 1943-1951, Pz.Sfl.V Sturer Emil, PzII Ausf. G-H, Marder III, Pershing trials in the USSR, Tiger study in the USSR, PIAT, SU-76, Heavy tanks M6, M6A1, and T1E1, SAu 40 and other medium SPGs, IS-2 (Object 234) and other Soviet heavy howitzer tanks, T-70B, SU-152, T-26 improved track projects, Object 238 and other improvements on the KV-1S, Lee and Grant tanks in British service, Matilda, T26E4 Super Pershing, GMC M12, PzII Ausf. J, VK 30.01(P)/Typ 100/Leopard, VK 36.01(H), Luchs, Leopard, and other recon tanks, PzIII Ausf. G trials in the USSR, SU-203, 105 mm howitzer M2A1, Mosin, Baranov's pocket mortar, Pz.Sfl.IVc, Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer" Available for request:  IM-1 squeezebore cannon 45 mm M-6 gun Schmeisser's work in the USSR Object 237 (IS-1 prototype) SU-85 T-29-5 KV-85 Tank sleds T-80 (the light tank) Proposed Soviet heavy tank destroyers DS-39 tank machinegun IS-1 (IS-85) IS-2 (object 240) Russian Renault Soviet tank winter camo MS-1/T-18 NEW  25-pounder 25-pounder "Baby" Cruiser Tank Mk.I Cruiser Tank Mk.II Valentine III and V Valentine IX Valentine X and XI  37 mm Anti-Tank Gun M3 36 inch Little David mortar Medium Tank M3 use in the USSR GMC M8 105 mm howitzer M3 Scorpion  15 cm sIG 33 10.5 cm leFH 18 7.5 cm LG 40 10.5 cm LG 42 Tiger (P) Stahlhelm in WWI Stahlhelm in WWII Nashorn/Hornisse PzIII Ausf. E and F PzIII Ausf. G and H Ferdinand 17 cm K i. Mrs. Laf. Grosstraktor  Semovente L40 da 47/32 Semovente da 75/18 Semovente da 105/25  47 mm wz.25 infantry gun 7TP and Vickers Mk.E trials in the USSR 7.92 mm wz. 35 anti-tank rifle 76.2 mm wz. 1902 and 75 mm wz. 1902/26 NEW  SD-100 (Czech SU-100 clone) Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 20:54
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Ensign Expendable posted:
I want to hear more about Baranov's  pocket mortar
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Feb 24, 2018 21:06
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Phi230 posted:I have a research question that might not fit here but I don't know where else to go: anything i tell you will also focus on the germanosphere
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Feb 24, 2018 21:10
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HEY GUNS posted:if you are interested in the 1600s and 1700s instead, i can totally hook you up, but this is later than my research Well did the price of gold and food and sugar and stuff really change that much until about 1815?
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Feb 24, 2018 21:16
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Phi230 posted:Well did the price of gold and food and sugar and stuff really change that much until about 1815? David Hackett Fischer, The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History Ulrich Pfister, “Consumer prices and wages in Germany, 1500–1850,” Westfälische Wilhelms-Universität Münster Historisches Seminar, March 2010 Fernand Braudel and Frank Spooner, “Prices in Europe from 1450 to 1750,” in EE Rich and CH Wilson, ed., The Cambridge Economic History of Europe Vol 4, The Economy of Expanding Europe in the 16th and 17th Centuries Jan de Vries, “The Economic Crisis of the Seventeenth Century after Fifty Years,” in Journal of Interdisciplinary History, Volume 40, Number 2, Autumn 2009 Jan van Zanden, “Wages and the standard of living in Europe, 1500-1800,” in European Review of Economic History, Vol. 3, No. 2 (AUGUST 1999) edit: actually you should just read everything braudel ever wrote, he owns HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 21:26
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Now how do I actually get access to this stuff?
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Feb 24, 2018 21:38
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Phi230 posted:Now how do I actually get access to this stuff?
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Feb 24, 2018 21:45
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Phi230 posted:Now how do I actually get access to this stuff? Visit your local university/college they usually allow free public access to their in library materials and I think you can access the electronic materials when you are physically on campus.
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Feb 24, 2018 21:46
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jan de vries is also a Big Deal
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Feb 24, 2018 21:54
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Agean90 posted:This is also why the south had so many food shortages during the civil war, as the small farmers who actually grew most of the food were off getting shot and the biggest supplier was the north, who cut off all trade. Food shortages in the south had very little to do with lack of production. Farms very quickly moved from cash crops (that had no available market) to foodstuffs. The bigger issues were a) lack of transportation infrastructure that made it very difficult to move food around, and b) runaway inflation that made it more difficult for anyone not involved in agriculture to actually afford food. When Union armies began breaking away from from their supply bases, they frequently found more and better food than their commissaries had been providing.
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Feb 24, 2018 21:57
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Agean90 posted:afaik plant types. the new world slave economy only really worked with ridiculously profitable cash crops like cotton, sugar, tobacco, or indigo. Food crops were grown, but mostly for local plantation consumption with any extra being sold off for extra cash. This is also why the south had so many food shortages during the civil war, as the small farmers who actually grew most of the food were off getting shot and the biggest supplier was the north, who cut off all trade. Since the west was too dry for any real agriculture (remember that the only reason the great plains are a bread basket is due to a whooole lotta irrigation and sod-busting) and the North too cold for the big money crops slavery proved impractical there. Worth pointing out everybody in the south expected slavery to be expanded across the southwestern states, which was pretty reasonable imo, today California is the nations largest cotton producing state. This is one one reason southern states were very big on the Mexican American war. These plans were all upset not by climate, but by the California gold rush. All those miners flooding west really didn't want to compete with slaves, and quickly made California free. I'm not sure how well you could grow cotton someplace like Arizona in 1860, but the climate isn't too different from modern countries that produce a lot of cotton like Turkey, so eh, you could probably do it in the river valleys at least with only a bit of irrigation.
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Feb 24, 2018 22:20
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Milo and POTUS posted:What was the reason for this? I mean why was it infeasible in the North/West? Growing season/soil types/ etc? Chattel slavery had the potential to be outrageously profitable everywhere. In the upper midwest, slaves could have worked corn/wheat and mining, in the far north, fur trapping and timber. The real reasons slavery divided along north/south lines was 1) it was ultimately cheaper for northern industrialists to use free labor, and 2) the Northwest Ordinance created a very arbitrary "no slavery" line, almost accidentally, that ended up being at the very heart of the war. Also re this bewbies posted:It is time for my annual email to the mayor and city council of Brooksville, Florida. I encourage everyone here to send something to this wonderfully diverse and enlightened group of southern politicians regarding the namesake of their town. for the first time in over a decade of doing this I actually got a thoughtful reply: quote:Thanks for taking the time to write and express your concern. As someone who has studied our community history, I am certainly aware of this incident and the subsequent naming of our city. Brooks would not have been someone I would have chosen to honor. You are also not the first to bring up the idea of a name change, a couple years ago there was a big push to rename the city to "Booksville." Considering the monumental expense and inconvenience to residents, businesses, and government if the name of the city were changed, it has seemed wiser to me to work to make sure our city is recognized for the compassion and service of its people today. Most people do not know the history of the name so I don't feel it is as honoring to him as those who named the city after him would have hoped. I giggled at "Booksville" bewbies fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 22:25
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Not to defend Hitler or anything but I mean, c'mon that's not good enough for art school? What do they expect? You go there to learn to be better. They're bland but not terrible.
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Feb 24, 2018 22:36
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Mantis42 posted:Not to defend Hitler or anything but I mean, c'mon that's not good enough for art school? What do they expect? You go there to learn to be better. They're bland but not terrible. how many applicants did that art school get though
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Feb 24, 2018 22:43
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Yes, it's an objectively hosed up rendition of St Stephens. The tower is melting and growing It's not just the tower, but the whole place surrounding it. Do you see how open it looks in the other paintings? That's because it really is. The black house on the right wouldn't even be visible from the point that he took as his position in the pic. Hitler was super lazy with his work, chances are good that he wasn't even there while painting this. The buildings in there are sights, so maybe that's the reason why he stacked them so strangely. He wanted to sell his art as postcards, so maybe there's your reason for this spatial act of violence. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 22:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:Even before that trade in the slaves was lucrative as gently caress. Jefferson did the math and figured out that he made more money from the "natural increase" in his slaves than from the actual farming that happened at Montecello. 1820 is after the slave trade was outlawed... Like, it was a curve of course, but as soon as that started being enforced prices began to shoot up.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:08
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Mantis42 posted:Not to defend Hitler or anything but I mean, c'mon that's not good enough for art school? What do they expect? You go there to learn to be better. They're bland but not terrible. Technically it was painting school. They thought the people in his drawings were bad or absent, and that he drew buildings much more than human beings. They recommended he apply to the school of architecture instead. The internet tells me he thought about it, but couldn't get in the pathway because he didn't graduate high school.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:09
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Technically it was painting school. They thought the people in his drawings were bad or absent, and that he drew buildings much more than human beings. They recommended he apply to the school of architecture instead. Yeah, Speer and Hitler got close because of their mutual interest in architecture.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:09
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Victor Hutchinson's POW Diary Saturday 24th February, 1945 I have contracted a severe cold & for the present am wooing Morpheus as the only available ally in this hell.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:23
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13th KRRC War Diary, 24th Feb 1918 posted:Working Parties as usual. All Company Commanders, Signal, Cook & Pioneer Sergeants went up to reconnoitre the Brigade Support Area. All blankets of the battalion were disinfected at VIJGERHOEK by the Thresh Disinfector. Voluntary Church Parades were held during the morning under the various chaplains of the Forces.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:23
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, Speer and Hitler got close because of their mutual interest in architecture. What's funny is that even Speer recognized in his memoirs that the stuff he'd designed with/for Hitler was ostentatious garbage.
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Feb 24, 2018 23:25
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Nebakenezzer posted:There seems to be a very deep connection between being a failure ... and deciding to go Nazi https://twitter.com/MrHappyDieHappy/status/967027082537721856 HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 00:05
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Do we know if Hitler sought revenge on the art teachers that rejected him?
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Feb 25, 2018 00:08
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HEY GUNS posted:especially now that the alt right is consciously grooming the failures (as long as they're white). Click on this, it's an entire thread. Read it. Then give it to your relatives if they're of the right age to be targeted. Man, I hope that guy's alright. He's got a lot to say and is eloquent. EDIT: Uh, reading the most recent stuff I've got this really scary feeling I'm reading someone's suicide note. spectralent fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 00:26
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Acebuckeye13 posted:What's funny is that even Speer recognized in his memoirs that the stuff he'd designed with/for Hitler was ostentatious garbage. Memoirs that he wrote in the 60s. If you go purely by autobiographical accounts, the only person in Germany who was ever more than lukewarm about Nazism was Hitler. Also, Hitler was entirely personally to blame for everything from tasteless architecture to military blunders to the genocide. It is entirely possible that is what Speer thought at the time, but a high-ranking Nazi claiming that he totally wasn't into any of that Nazi poo poo should be viewed with just a little skepticism.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:43
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Geisladisk posted:Memoirs that he wrote in the 60s. If you go purely by autobiographical accounts, the only person in Germany who was ever more than lukewarm about Nazism was Hitler. Also, Hitler was entirely personally to blame for everything from tasteless architecture to military blunders to the genocide. I do agree with you in general regarding his memoirs, but if I'm remembering Inside the Third Reich correctly (which I may not be, I was a freshman in high school when I read it so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), his comments regarding his work as an architect with Hitler were that, as a young man placed on a pedestal by Hitler, he was overwhelmed by dreams of everlasting architectual glory and nonsensical concepts like ruin value-which led to things like his plans for the Volkshalle that boiled down to "make it stupidly big," and it was only after the war when he was looking back that he was able realize that many of his designs in actuality were objectively terrible. edit: also apologies for the terrible run-on sentence Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Feb 25, 2018 |
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Feb 25, 2018 01:47
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HEY GUNS posted:If you google some of the articles, I think PDFs should pop up. The books are visible in google books. Braudel is so famous you should be able to find used versions of his stuff for cheap spectralent posted:Man, I hope that guy's alright. He's got a lot to say and is eloquent.
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Feb 25, 2018 02:41
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bewbies posted:Chattel slavery had the potential to be outrageously profitable everywhere. In the upper midwest, slaves could have worked corn/wheat and mining, in the far north, fur trapping and timber. The real reasons slavery divided along north/south lines was 1) it was ultimately cheaper for northern industrialists to use free labor, and 2) the Northwest Ordinance created a very arbitrary "no slavery" line, almost accidentally, that ended up being at the very heart of the war. They could do the thing King county did, and rename the city to Brooksville but change who it's being named after http://www.historylink.org/File/678
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Feb 25, 2018 03:04
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HEY GUNS posted:especially now that the alt right is consciously grooming the failures (as long as they're white). Click on this, it's an entire thread. Read it. Then give it to your relatives if they're of the right age to be targeted. Yeah, this has been popping up everywhere in CSPAM. Targeting the alienated and unwell is a Islamic terrorist tactic, and in Canada so far it ended in two shootings of mentally ill young men. Of course one of those guys murdered a honor guard at the national war memorial, then charged the Parliament building. Fortunately it turns out the Sargent-At-Arms in Parliament is actually armed, and not with a ceremonial mace, either
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Feb 25, 2018 03:18
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spectralent posted:Man, I hope that guy's alright. He's got a lot to say and is eloquent.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:45
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Geisladisk posted:Memoirs that he wrote in the 60s. If you go purely by autobiographical accounts, the only person in Germany who was ever more than lukewarm about Nazism was Hitler. Also, Hitler was entirely personally to blame for everything from tasteless architecture to military blunders to the genocide.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:47
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