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While culling may have been the correct decision, how Arthas presented it to Uther was terrible. If he explained clearly that the plague is designed to transform the living into undead soldiers instead of firing the best paladin in the world things might have gone better.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:28
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Maybe I'm misremembering the Mission. [shrug] Maybe they should have made us play Uther then and let Arthas become an NPC who goes crazy. We try in vain to stop the Scourge, but at least we weren't forced to feel like we had to become Evil and nutso to win. Maybe maybe maybe.... I hope the LP is updated soon so we can all comfortably move on past discussing this, I really do.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:34
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But Arthas not going crazy would derail his entire story. He'd be a completely different character.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:39
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achtungnight posted:Maybe I'm misremembering the Mission. [shrug] Maybe they should have made us play Uther then and let Arthas become an NPC who goes crazy. We try in vain to stop the Scourge, but at least we weren't forced to feel like we had to become Evil and nutso to win. Maybe maybe maybe.... Forcing the player to undergo extreme (potentially evil) measures to defeat Mal'ganas is the entire point because Arthas' story is about how he felt forced to go to those measures himself. If the game took control of the character away from you and made you play as Uther, it would remove a significant portion of what made this story beat so impactful.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:44
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Arthas did nothing wrong. Okay, that's not accurate, but still funny. Achtung, what you're getting hung up on is the difference between a Choose Your Own Adventure (Lost Heir), and a story where your actions do not impact the plot of the story (WC3). You aren't making decisions for Arthas, he's making his own choices. You are simply playing out his actions and their consequences. My issue with all this is Uther and Jaina loving off at the worst possible moment. Jaina having no stomach for the murder of civilians is one thing, but Uther taking his goddamned Paladins and running is outrageous. He left his ward, who had just told him of his intentions to genocide a town, after having fought off legion of undead, to his own devices. It's irresponsible, and I lay a lot of the blame for what follows at Uther's feet.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:18
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SirSamVimes posted:If the game took control of the character away from you and made you play as Uther, it would remove a significant portion of what made this story beat so impactful. Good. Because that's exactly how you're intended to feel. The Human campaign is not a story of a moral and noble Hero triumphing over Evil. It's a story of a basically normal human who's in over his head but too young, hotheaded and overeager to realize it. A person whose noble goals and intent lead him to make desperate choices in situations where there's no clear path. The whole point of making you play as Arthas and actually kill civilians in this mission is that you're *supposed* to put yourself in Arthas' shoes and really feel that gut punch.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:18
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Hey, just because I’m being forced to feel the gut punch doesn’t mean I have to like it, right? I agree Uther is to blame too and yeah, it was handled badly- that has been established. I’m not saying more right now. Thx for helping me work through my feelings, y’all. I’m glad they’re somewhat shared. Hope we can soon see more of the game. It does get better.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:23
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RickVoid posted:My issue with all this is Uther and Jaina loving off at the worst possible moment. Jaina having no stomach for the murder of civilians is one thing, but Uther taking his goddamned Paladins and running is outrageous. He left his ward, who had just told him of his intentions to genocide a town, after having fought off legion of undead, to his own devices. It's irresponsible, and I lay a lot of the blame for what follows at Uther's feet. yeah, most of this is on Arthas' shoulders, but Uther certainly may not have prevented the purging, but given despite being fired he still has enough loyalty from the Paladins that they left with him, if he wanted to, he might have been able to order them to subdue Arthas. Jaina is definitely a combination of knowing how bad it's gonna be since she witnessed the grains, and no doubt getting scared shitless by Arthas' attitude.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:26
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Yeah, no. Strathome was hosed, period. But dealing with it alone is what hosed up Arthas. No joke though, and this is probably true for the series as a whole, but Jaina did nothing wrong.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:31
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It probably would have helped a lot if Arthas had made any effort to explain to his friends why this had to be done, or indeed showed any signs of contrition or regret about this at all. He's just pissed and falls back on angry yelling and throwing his authority around. Arthas is by all indications not actually a good leader.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:39
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Cythereal posted:It probably would have helped a lot if Arthas had made any effort to explain to his friends why this had to be done, or indeed showed any signs of contrition or regret about this at all. He's just pissed and falls back on angry yelling and throwing his authority around. The son of the king who is powerful both politically and magically is in fact a spoiled brat? 
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Feb 25, 2018 01:44
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Cythereal posted:It probably would have helped a lot if Arthas had made any effort to explain to his friends why this had to be done, or indeed showed any signs of contrition or regret about this at all. He's just pissed and falls back on angry yelling and throwing his authority around. He's also, like, 19 years old. I was a little poo poo at 19. And I would bet gold to nickel that you were too.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:49
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achtungnight posted:Maybe I'm misremembering the Mission. The LP just covered it, though? Like, the update is right there.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:49
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SirSamVimes posted:The son of the king who is powerful both politically and magically is in fact a spoiled brat? Could be worse. We could be dealing with Prince Galen Trollbane of Stromgarde. 
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Feb 25, 2018 01:49
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Are there people in this thread under the impression that this is a Three's Company misunderstanding, and Uther didn't actually realize that the grain would turn the city populace into zombies?
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Feb 25, 2018 01:50
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Xander77 posted:Are there people in this thread under the impression that this is a Three's Company misunderstanding, and Uther didn't actually realize that the grain would turn the city populace into zombies? Cutting out the added dialogue from the LPer, this is the only point that Arthas even mentions that effect the plague has.  Oh, no. We're too late. These people have all been infected! They may look fine now, but it's just a matter of time before they turn into the undead! What? It's a single throwaway line and when Uther expresses confusion, Arthas doesn't even bother to clarify or explain and jumps straight to demanding a purge. Uther didn't know what the plague did.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:54
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I mean, Jaina should probably have explained to him at some point while they were travelling to Andorhal, but there's nothing to say that actually happened.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:59
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Tenebrais posted:I mean, Jaina should probably have explained to him at some point while they were travelling to Andorhal, but there's nothing to say that actually happened. At that point Arthas had already fired Uther and made it clear that he did not want his presence there.
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Feb 25, 2018 02:00
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SirSamVimes posted:At that point Arthas had already fired Uther and made it clear that he did not want his presence there. I mean during the previous mission, while Arthas was holding off the undead waiting for Uther to arrive and save them. I presume Jaina teleported to wherever the Silver Hand was camped then hoofed it back with them for that half an hour. Pity she couldn't have just got one more level the map before to learn Mass Teleport.
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Feb 25, 2018 02:08
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Tenebrais posted:I mean, Jaina should probably have explained to him at some point while they were travelling to Andorhal, but there's nothing to say that actually happened. She didn't know the plagued grain and the rise of the undead were one and the same. She teleported away literally moments before Arthas saw it firsthand for the first time. Up until that point, they'd had every reason to think that the plague was just wiping out villages, and some freaky cultists were coming in afterwards.
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Feb 25, 2018 02:27
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So this is interesting. I'm relaxing between FF14 dungeon runs, casually looking at twitter when I see this pop up on my feed... https://twitter.com/LPArchive/status/967630376188481536
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Feb 25, 2018 06:22
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DoubleNegative posted:So this is interesting. I'm relaxing between FF14 dungeon runs, casually looking at twitter when I see this pop up on my feed... Oh Jesus, Joseph and Mary! (sorry) Oh, this is wonderful! Something to read during my off-hours.
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Feb 25, 2018 08:09
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Hooray, Azzur’s LP was archived!  A very welcome distraction till this LP is updated again.
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Feb 25, 2018 08:16
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RickVoid posted:Arthas did nothing wrong. Yeah, THANK YOU. That's always been my take and I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way. Granted I'm not a huge lore person, but I've seen the Culling described as Arthas' turning point and... I thought he was completely in the right? The villagers were doomed anyway, and they were working against time here, so finding 'another way' is an enormous risk for possibly very little gain (other than your moral high ground). If Arthas' behavior were as big a deal as Uther is making it out to be, you'd think he'd try harder to work it out with him. But nope, 'yer crazy, I'm out, peace' is just as brash and irresponsible as what he's accusing Arthas of being. And as someone who just recently started paying attention to voice acting and voice work (this started in Overwatch, out of all places/things), nth-ing the voice acting appreciation in this thread.
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Feb 25, 2018 12:58
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SirSamVimes posted:Uther didn't know what the plague did.
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Feb 25, 2018 13:06
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It's done very naturally, very organically. They seeded how brash and impatient Arthas is from the second mission, when he wants to rush in and defeat that Orc Blademaster. Uther didn't exactly leave of his own accord. Arthas did tell them to get out of his sight, and the threat of violence was implicit. If Uther had remained, he would've had to fight Arthas to stop him. If Uther hadn't left (or had attempted to stop Arthas), he would've been guilty of treason. Arthas had made this political. Uther may have left to speak to the King, but either way, he had to leave before he made a bad situation worse.
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Feb 25, 2018 16:14
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Xander77 posted:The writing in this game is competent enough that if this were true, it would be the greatest blunder in it. Thankfully, this is not the case. The very post you quoted demonstrated that Uther didn't know with dialogue quoted directly from the cutscene. Why are you so adamant that he did?
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Feb 25, 2018 21:14
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Misremembering Missions- the update is not ‘right there’. It is buried behind several posts of arguments. I confused part of this mission for the last one and realized it after I posted my suggested changes. Get it now? Another idea to help players uncomfortable with this mission and preserve its story vibes I had last night- Remove the murder race against the enemy. Instead do this. Arthas harangues & expels Uther at the start as normal, then tells Jaina what he intends and why. Jaina is bothered, but does not leave immediately. Instead she becomes the main hero unit for the mission while Arthas and a few other units are NPCs who start slaughtering peasants (listen to me). Jaina and the other player-controlled units must protect Arthas at least while this is done. The enemy has several hidden ambushes in the city, some peasants have already turned into zombies, other peasants may resist Arthas... basically now we’re doing an escort mission to keep him alive while he slaughters. At some point he can’t take the guilt of what he’s doing himself any longer, never mind that he feels it must be done, and he asks Jaina to help him get it done faster by killing peasants with her units alongside him. Player’s choice to comply, if they must up tension Mal’ganis can start roaming the field now teleporting zombies away but we can win the mission through helping Arthas slaughter or repeatedly killing Mal and thus holding him off till Arthas finishes his goal of killing X amount of Infected- though that’s not immediately clear. At mission conclusion, Jaina is horrified over what Arthas asked her to do (dialogue is ambiguous as to whether she actually did it)- and now she storms off in shock and player control shifts back to Arthas for the next Mission. This method of breaking in people more carefully to what’s going on might have worked better in my opinion. Probably would have required a different idea of Jaina’s character though, which Blizzard seems to lack.
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Feb 25, 2018 21:32
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achtungnight posted:Misremembering Missions- the update is not ‘right there’. It is buried behind several posts of arguments. I confused part of this mission for the last one and realized it after I posted my suggested changes. Get it now? Cool fanfic bro
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Feb 25, 2018 21:40
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SirSamVimes posted:The very post you quoted demonstrated that Uther didn't know with dialogue quoted directly from the cutscene. Why are you so adamant that he did?
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Feb 25, 2018 21:42
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achtungnight posted:jesus christ Shut the gently caress up.
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Feb 25, 2018 21:43
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Xander77 posted:It demonstrated the exact opposite. The exact literal quote, directed at Uther, is "These people have all been infected! They may look fine now, but it's just a matter of time before they turn into the undead!" Worth noting is that Arthas is, at that point, the only one who realizes that the plague itself is what's turning them into undead. All Arthas tells Uther is that they're infected, and that they're gonna turn into undead. As far as Uther knows, these are two separate events, only related through the fact that the Plague will likely kill them, allowing someone ELSE to raise them as undead. Uther is not told that the Plague itself is what will turn them into undead. He doesn't know.
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Feb 25, 2018 22:03
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achtungnight posted:This method of breaking in people more carefully to what’s going on might have worked better in my opinion. Modifying the mission to allow the player to feel removed from Arthas’ actions or lessen the impact works directly contrary to the intended effect. I’d also just like to mention that the fact you’re upset about having to role play this? Working exactly as intended.
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Feb 25, 2018 23:56
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achtungnight posted:Misremembering Missions- the update is not ‘right there’. It is buried behind several posts of arguments. I confused part of this mission for the last one and realized it after I posted my suggested changes. Get it now? How have you not been laughed out of the thread yet
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Feb 26, 2018 00:06
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Xander77 posted:It demonstrated the exact opposite. The exact literal quote, directed at Uther, is "These people have all been infected! They may look fine now, but it's just a matter of time before they turn into the undead!" And Uther says "What?" and instead of explaining, Arthas jumps straight to "This entire city must be purged."
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Feb 26, 2018 00:22
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Walrus Pete- Because I have the ability to laugh at irritating others built up from long experience manipulating the emotions of others online. Thank you and a few others for playing into my hands. Muhahaha! Ok, fine, the drat game is working as intended. I still do not like being forced to play an uncomfortable role. I was not the only player who felt this way. Do I not have the right to call out Blizzard for sparking such emotions or will I be continued to be derided for doing so? I'll let you all decide. Because I am human and comfortable with my character, I continue to speak my mind and stand by my stated opinions.
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Feb 26, 2018 00:33
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achtungnight posted:Do I not have the right to call out Blizzard for sparking such emotions? Seeing how part of the point of storytelling is to invoke emotions(Good and bad), it seems like an odd thing to call someone out on.
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Feb 26, 2018 00:49
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I'd say that making the player feel uncomfortable like that is something Blizzard should be commended for rather than called out.
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Feb 26, 2018 00:55
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DoubleNegative posted:So this is interesting. I'm relaxing between FF14 dungeon runs, casually looking at twitter when I see this pop up on my feed... This is great to see. Thanks for posting and thanks to everyone who was involved in getting that up there, and of course Azzur for doing the thread in the first place. Jesus; over 7 years ago.
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Feb 26, 2018 01:06
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achtungnight posted:Walrus Pete- Because I have the ability to laugh at irritating others built up from long experience manipulating the emotions of others online. Thank you and a few others for playing into my hands. Muhahaha! this is a really childish perspective, imo granted, most video games are childish power fantasies that seek to puff up the player, and i'm not about to insist on warcraft as being anything more then that. but media is capable of invoking other responses from it's audience, and is generally better/more interesting for it
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Feb 26, 2018 01:20
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