(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Looked up the reason they censored it and it's less funny now would you like to share with the class
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Feb 28, 2018 19:07
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Yossarian-22 posted:"I don't believe that freedom of movement is an inalienable human right, when it's primarily exploited as a means of making capital more fluid" The ability of entire countries full of people to develop the conditions of life to a humane standard for all is way more important than letting educated elites chase bigger paychecks around the globe. Framing this in terms of an "international working class" is infuriating. The poorest farmers and agricultural workers in the Global South couldn't even dream of moving to another town, much less the Global North where they would be scraping by for the bare necessities while delivering First World cash to their home countries where the value of that currency has a much greater marginal utility. Thousands die every year attempting to cross into the wealthier parts of the globe because they couldn't afford to travel by plane, train, or boat. Because they couldn't wait on the years long process of visa validation and residency approval, if they could even afford to apply in the first place. Where was their right to the freedom of movement? The liberal states of the Global North don't even bother living up to their own professed ideals. If they did then global transit would be free, and there'd be no barriers to immigration. The fact of the matter is that the "freedom of movement" comes with a catch, which is that whether or not you actually have the right to move freely depends entirely on your exploitative value.
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Feb 28, 2018 20:07
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Karl Barks posted:would you like to share with the class Oh I assumed everybody here knew it already. It's because it's one of the catchphrases people are using to criticize the Party removing term limits to let Xi be president forever. They have various ways ways of lowkey saying he wants to be a dictator like the phrase "boarding a plane" because it's a pun on "ascending to the throne" and all of them are getting censored
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Feb 28, 2018 20:14
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The ability of entire countries full of people to develop the conditions of life to a humane standard for all is way more important than letting educated elites chase bigger paychecks around the globe. Framing this in terms of an "international working class" is infuriating. The poorest farmers and agricultural workers in the Global South couldn't even dream of moving to another town, much less the Global North where they would be scraping by for the bare necessities while delivering First World cash to their home countries where the value of that currency has a much greater marginal utility. Thousands die every year attempting to cross into the wealthier parts of the globe because they couldn't afford to travel by plane, train, or boat. Because they couldn't wait on the years long process of visa validation and residency approval, if they could even afford to apply in the first place. Where was their right to the freedom of movement? what about the fact that the chinese government heavily restrict the freedom of movement for poor rural people within the borders of china through the Hukou system? is that also justified in the name of socialism? Typo has issued a correction as of 23:06 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 23:02
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Typo posted:what about the fact that the chinese government heavily restrict the freedom of movement for poor rural people within the borders of china through the Hukou system? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ China's a big country so some regions are bound to be developed unevenly. You need some kind of system in place to prevent urban overpopulation from people seeking city work, especially while you're still developing and there's not enough industrial labor to go around. I'm not an expert on the Hukou but the impression I get is they've been easing up the restrictions so it's easier to migrate.
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Feb 28, 2018 23:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but in effect the Hukou system was also a way to strip social services/protection from migrant workers who go to cities, so for instance migrant workers who go to cities don't have access to subsidized public schools for their kids, isn't that incredibly exploitative?
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Feb 28, 2018 23:21
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Typo posted:but in effect the Hukou system was also a way to strip social services/protection from migrant workers who go to cities, so for instance migrant workers who go to cities don't have access to subsidized public schools for their kids, isn't that incredibly exploitative? Sure, but I'm not a fan of Dengism.
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Feb 28, 2018 23:23
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Sure, but I'm not a fan of Dengism. the hukou system has being there since 1950s though
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Feb 28, 2018 23:26
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Typo posted:the hukou system has being there since 1950s though Before the late 70s there used to be much heavier restrictions on residency, because everything was being centrally planned. There wasn't supposed to be any kind of "migrant labor" because to move to the city and work a job there meant you were already recruited and slotted for it. To be a migrant laborer under Hukou meant you were already working outside the law.
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Feb 28, 2018 23:31
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Yossarian-22 posted:"I don't believe that freedom of movement is an inalienable human right, when it's primarily exploited as a means of making capital more fluid" "Freedom of movement" is entirely theoretical for individuals based on their economic capability. It means capital can always move to the cheapest country possible at-will, while the workers can't move with them and are hosed once their country actually improves to the point where somewhere else is cheaper. The point isn't that we shouldn't have it, but rather that it doesn't work in the way its supposed to.
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Mar 1, 2018 02:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:"Freedom of movement" is entirely theoretical for individuals based on their economic capability. It means capital can always move to the cheapest country possible at-will, while the workers can't move with them and are hosed once their country actually improves to the point where somewhere else is cheaper. I agree, which is why it's essential that workers form ties across borders and juxtapose/demand their own freedom of movement as opposed to that of capital. The insecurity of workers vis-a-vis national borders allows the wage rate to be suppressed everywhere and workers to have their surplus value stolen even more viciously in national bourgeois interests everywhere Relevant pic: 
Yossarian-22 has issued a correction as of 03:27 on Mar 1, 2018 |
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Mar 1, 2018 03:23
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Yossarian-22 posted:I agree, which is why it's essential that workers form ties across borders and juxtapose/demand their own freedom of movement as opposed to that of capital. The insecurity of workers vis-a-vis national borders allows the wage rate to be suppressed everywhere and workers to have their surplus value stolen even more viciously in national bourgeois interests everywhere. Workers don't form ties across borders just because they have the right to (eventually, after several years) migrate to work in another country. International working solidarity has to be organized politically. The end state of a world where freedom of movement is actually guaranteed won't eliminate bourgeois exploitation, it'll just be a mass migration from the poorest parts of the world to the richest parts of the world in search of the most valued labor. You would level out the rate of exploitation globally, but that wouldn't eliminate it. Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 03:34 on Mar 1, 2018 |
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Mar 1, 2018 03:32
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Yossarian-22 posted:Relevant pic: 
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Mar 1, 2018 03:33
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Yossarian-22 posted:Relevant pic: Lol but not for the reason you and the artist intended
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Mar 1, 2018 03:39
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Yossarian-22 posted:I agree, which is why it's essential that workers form ties across borders and juxtapose/demand their own freedom of movement as opposed to that of capital. The insecurity of workers vis-a-vis national borders allows the wage rate to be suppressed everywhere and workers to have their surplus value stolen even more viciously in national bourgeois interests everywhere the state, money, and wages, the three things people associate capitalism with most
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Mar 1, 2018 03:40
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*Stitch voice* Socialism means no money
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Mar 1, 2018 03:45
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Mar 1, 2018 04:25
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Typo posted:but in effect the Hukou system was also a way to strip social services/protection from migrant workers who go to cities, so for instance migrant workers who go to cities don't have access to subsidized public schools for their kids, isn't that incredibly exploitative? quote:However, contrary to the expectation that peasants would respond positively and in large number when given an opportunity to change their rural hukou to urban hukou, survey after survey has found that their responses are lukewarm at best. In fact, many peasants consider rural hukou more valuable than urban hukou, and some who have changed their rural hukou to urban hukou want to reverse their decision. This paradoxical phenomenon is increasingly being observed and reported, but it remains largely absent in the literature on migration and hukou in China, and is certainly not well understood. In this article, we explore why Chinese peasants and rural migrants are not eager to obtain urban hukou despite the fact that they are encouraged to do so, the process has been made much easier, and urban benefits are superior to rural benefits. China’s Hukou Puzzle: Why Don’t Rural Migrants Want Urban Hukou?
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Mar 1, 2018 04:28
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You can square a special respect for freedom of movement from liberal states, against how ICE is dealing with undocumented labor right now. It's telling that across the first world, the reactionary wave were seeing started with a migrant panic.
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Mar 1, 2018 04:34
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This is just one of those issues on which context matters and decides basically everything. If an under developed country wants to stop losing doctors or other professionals necessary for a modern state and economy, i feel they're within their rights to do that. Society is an agreement between individuals to work together, and that sometimes means giving something up to get something else. I'm sure each individual doctor would rather live comfortably where they already are, but they can't, so they make decision rational to them. And the result of every doctor making that same rational decision leads to a collective action problem. But obviously there are limits to such an approach, and any constraint on action has to be justified with a collective payoff. If they were refugees fleeing persecution, then obviously the situation is different.
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Mar 1, 2018 04:53
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Karl Barks posted:the state, money, and wages, the three things people associate capitalism with most yeah better that we stick with the freedom/opportunity/entrepreneurship vs. 100 million dead/breadlines/gulag paradigm we're all familiar with or better yet, the meaninglessness of the phrase "ownership of the means of production" which renders everything from your local co-op to kibbutzim in israel a socialist utopia in the naive sense that proudhon conceived of it or the state ownership of the means of production paradigm, which renders scandanavia, iran, and dprk socialist... which all maintain those lovely hierarchical relations of a state, wage labor, money, and commodity exchange  capital is a global system and no nation has successfully managed to exist "outside" of what is essentially a global system. at best, a nation can achieve tenuous social democratic measures either with the backing of the west (scandanavia) or its incessant subterfuge (cuba). any talk of fighting to preserve such regimes is only justified insofar as it entails preventing violence from an aggressor, which is equally just if we're going to say that the u.s. shouldn't invade afghanistan and so forth Yossarian-22 has issued a correction as of 09:09 on Mar 1, 2018 |
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Mar 1, 2018 08:55
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neither scandinavia nor iran have state ownership of the means of production
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Mar 1, 2018 09:30
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You're supposed to start from the corner, not paint into it.
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Mar 1, 2018 09:38
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I think freedom of movement is about as theoretical as a growing middle class tbh. Yeah sure I agree with it, but its like saying its the right of every citizen to engage in politics. Like, yeah, its true on paper. But some people need the money from working on election day or w.e., and for example my DSA chapter is mostly urban professionals because they're the ones who can afford to have the free time to organize. Rights for everyone aren't actually for everyone if the use of it is restricted by available capital
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Mar 1, 2018 12:08
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someone give me a bunch of freedom so i can afford to immigrate to ireland
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Mar 1, 2018 13:34
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freckle posted:someone give me a bunch of freedom so i can afford to immigrate to ireland a tax haven eh?
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Mar 1, 2018 15:34
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Jose posted:a tax haven eh? no better place to eat the rich
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Mar 1, 2018 16:48
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R. Guyovich posted:neither scandinavia nor iran have state ownership of the means of production arguable https://peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/01/18/the-norwegian-government-owns-most-of-the-countrys-wealth/
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Mar 1, 2018 16:49
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Yossarian-22 posted:yeah better that we stick with the freedom/opportunity/entrepreneurship vs. 100 million dead/breadlines/gulag paradigm we're all familiar with i just thought that comic was silly, i more or less agree virtually no state is 100% full on communism. but I support the ones that are trying! except for the DRPK, juche is fascism  and china should cool it on the capital punishment
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Mar 1, 2018 16:56
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Karl Barks posted:i just thought that comic was silly, i more or less agree virtually no state is 100% full on communism. but I support the ones that are trying! except for the DRPK, juche is fascism i'd argue that trying for total state ownership is misguided at best, and a bad faith attempt to justify a parasitic state bureaucracy's complete stranglehold on all aspects of life at worst
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Mar 1, 2018 17:36
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Karl Barks posted:i just thought that comic was silly, i more or less agree virtually no state is 100% full on communism. but I support the ones that are trying! except for the DRPK, juche is fascism Its bad to me when they execute workers, but its good to me when they execute corrupt business people
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Mar 1, 2018 18:12
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Larry Parrish posted:Its bad to me when they execute workers, but its good to me when they execute corrupt business people So, business people?
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Mar 1, 2018 18:22
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Last I heard, Xi was really popular in China while the CPC as a whole was seen as sort of poo poo, mostly because of corruption Seeing a lot of Western media collapsing the two together when discussing the public reaction to potential changes to term limits is making me suspicious, but I'm wondering if people know more. I haven't been keeping up with China much since the CPC Congress
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Mar 2, 2018 00:50
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Mar 2, 2018 08:55
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once in awhile horseshoe theory is real
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Mar 2, 2018 18:35
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The post from the brain damaged maoist is correct.
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Mar 3, 2018 19:32
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my favorite moment in chinese censorship was when one of the newspapers there moved into a phallic building, and censors removed posts by people that said "hey that looks like a dick"
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Mar 4, 2018 04:09
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Larry Parrish posted:The post from the brain damaged maoist is correct. new thread title imo
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Mar 4, 2018 04:39
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Mar 4, 2018 18:46
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| # ? May 27, 2024 21:02 |
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owned
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Mar 4, 2018 18:59
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