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https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/7zx3br/tlj_novel_tidbits_part_1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/7zz0ta/tlj_novel_tidbits_part_2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/804h5f/tlj_novel_tidbits_part_3_of_4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/805b0t/tlj_novel_tidbits_part_4_finale/ Hoo, boy.
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Mar 1, 2018 11:59
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A lot of that reads like someone was told to smooth things over and make the fans happy. Not too surprising given the time that's passed but some of it feels super obvious.
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Mar 1, 2018 12:23
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It was announced from day 1 that the novelization was going to have stuff that wasn't in the final cut of the film; I'm pretty sure the book was complete before the film hit theaters anyway.
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Mar 1, 2018 13:01
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Gonz posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/7zx3br/tlj_novel_tidbits_part_1/ Thanks for posting. Seem to match the movie almost perfectly.
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Mar 1, 2018 14:37
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I am going to read the junior novelization because I am both cheap and lazy.
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Mar 1, 2018 16:22
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Good stuff from those novelization spoilers. It seems like it benefited from two things: Rian is a stated fan of the novelizations and wanted to provide input and that the release delay let them do some final writing/editing post-release.
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Mar 1, 2018 19:27
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Yeah I thought they expanded and strengthened what we always see on the screen.
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Mar 1, 2018 21:09
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The novelisations have always added bits and pieces; for example, I believe the first mention of Darth Bane as the founder of the Sith Lords was in the novelisation of TPM, which adapted a scene that was cut from the script. Conversely, as I recall the ANH novelisation by Alan Dean Foster (?) based on an earlier version of the script than the one Lucas eventually filmed included details like the Emperor being a weak-willed figurehead who was controlled by the military commnders who were the real power in the Empire. I think there was also something about Darth Vader not actually being directly affiliated with the Empire but was part of another group which co-operated with them, but I might be imagining that completely. 
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Mar 1, 2018 21:55
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I have read that Lucas spent some time lorebuilding and writing a kind of cliffsnotes quasi-EU that ended up on a lot of toy boxes and card backs etc. Although it could have just been stuff from his notes for the movie - I've never seen an actual thing like "here's scans from the notebook where Lucas wrote up backstory". It's the kind of stuff that people have just seemed to know over the years (like Han rescuing Chewie etc.). Some of that stuff probably ended up in the Foster book. Weirdly they are reviving Mimban in some form for Solo. The planet from the book they wrote as a backup sequel in case they couldn't buy Harrison back. Bribing Harrison Ford To Come Back For Another Star War is actually a longer running issue in the franchise than bringing balance to the Force lol
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Mar 1, 2018 22:08
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Ingmar terdman posted:I have read that Lucas spent some time lorebuilding and writing a kind of cliffsnotes quasi-EU that ended up on a lot of toy boxes and card backs etc. Lucas's apparent attachment to midi-chlorians has long been very peculiar to me. I don't really care about midi-chlorians either way (fair enough if people don't like them but it's a silly thing to get hung-up on) but I feel like Lucas does. They'd function fine as a shorthand for Anakin being strong in the Force, but then later on you get that scene in TPM where Qui-Gon went out of his way to stop the plot and explain what they are to Anakin, and I remember thinking last time I watched TPM that it felt like a very, "Pay attention! This will be important later!" scene. Then there's the story years later that the guy who wrote that official making of Star Wars book was specifically told to mention some notes Lucas had made in 1975 about midi-chlorians to prove they'd always been part of the story. I don't know, it's odd how important he apparently wanted them to be (as I recall, the old EU idea was that Anakin was created by the Force to destroy the Sith when Palpatine and Plagueis tried to manipulate midi-chlorians to create life, but I'm not sure how much of that came from anything Lucas came up with) then I don't think he came back to them in ROTS in as big a way as he might have wanted to at one point or another. quote:Weirdly they are reviving Mimban in some form for Solo. The planet from the book they wrote as a backup sequel in case they couldn't buy Harrison back. I think whichever Kasdan son is co-writing the script (it's whichever one didn't direct Jumanji 2) is into the old EU so Mimban is probably his input.
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Mar 1, 2018 22:37
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Ingmar terdman posted:I have read that Lucas spent some time lorebuilding and writing a kind of cliffsnotes quasi-EU that ended up on a lot of toy boxes and card backs etc. Although it could have just been stuff from his notes for the movie - I've never seen an actual thing like "here's scans from the notebook where Lucas wrote up backstory". It's the kind of stuff that people have just seemed to know over the years (like Han rescuing Chewie etc.). Some of that stuff probably ended up in the Foster book. Yeah, Lucas would come up with lore and backstory for toys and stuff on the fly, as well as weird names like Elan Sleezebaggano. I remember his original backstory for Han Solo had him being kidnapped as a kid by space gypsies, rescued and raised by Wookies, joins the Imperial Academy, gets thrown out for crashing a ship during a stupid bet, becomes a smuggler and saves Chewbacca from slavers. That's from memory so not necessarily accurate, I couldn't find a good summary of the original Lucas backstory before the EU.
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Mar 1, 2018 23:25
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MonsieurChoc posted:I remember his original backstory for Han Solo had him being kidnapped as a kid by space gypsies, rescued and raised by Wookies, joins the Imperial Academy, gets thrown out for crashing a ship during a stupid bet, becomes a smuggler and saves Chewbacca from slavers. That's from memory so not necessarily accurate, I couldn't find a good summary of the original Lucas backstory before the EU. He was a Creature from the Black Lagoon at one stage.
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Mar 1, 2018 23:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, Lucas would come up with lore and backstory for toys and stuff on the fly, as well as weird names like Elan Sleezebaggano. Was this actually Lucas backstory? It became the "well known" version at one point, just like Anakin becoming Vader in a volcano duel, but they seem like origin-less or EU ideas that can't be tracked back directly to Lucas via any actual source. Up until the prequels with the latter, that is.
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Mar 1, 2018 23:52
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feedmyleg posted:Was this actually Lucas backstory? It became the "well known" version at one point, just like Anakin becoming Vader in a volcano duel, but they seem like origin-less or EU ideas that can't be tracked back directly to Lucas via any actual source. Up until the prequels with the latter, that is. The Anakin / Obi-Wan volcano duel came from the novelization of Return of the Jedi, as I recall, which was personally approved by Lucas.
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Mar 2, 2018 00:57
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, Lucas would come up with lore and backstory for toys and stuff on the fly, as well as weird names like Elan Sleezebaggano. “Darth Insaneus...Darth Icky.”
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Mar 2, 2018 01:33
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I love the Darth Icky story, the devs not realizing they were being hosed with approaches My lunches with Orson-level obliviousness.
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Mar 2, 2018 01:46
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Jettisoning the old EU was pretty clearly necessary solely for clearing the previous Solo kids off the board, who are the only part of the old EU who are flatly incompatible with what they're doing right now. Frankly it's probably for the best, because as bad as some of the character positioning in the sequel trilogy has been, Rey and Kylo being the fraternal Solo twins separated at birth would have been a bit much (though with JJ lurking around I suppose it could still rear its head in Ep9) And Kylo's more of an Anakin Solo riff anyway, even if it was Jacen who fell Crion fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 07:20
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Milky Moor posted:A lot of that reads like someone was told to smooth things over and make the fans happy. Not too surprising given the time that's passed but some of it feels super obvious. A lot of it doesn't even work with the story as presented. Characters say things that are completely incompatible with they're place in the story. There's even stuff that contradicts the opening crawl.
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Mar 2, 2018 08:45
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galagazombie posted:A lot of it doesn't even work with the story as presented. Characters say things that are completely incompatible with they're place in the story. There's even stuff that contradicts the opening crawl. Such as? Not trying to be a dick, I really want to know some examples of the contradictions you refer to here.
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Mar 2, 2018 13:58
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Wheat Loaf posted:Lucas's apparent attachment to midi-chlorians has long been very peculiar to me. I don't really care about midi-chlorians either way (fair enough if people don't like them but it's a silly thing to get hung-up on) but I feel like Lucas does. They'd function fine as a shorthand for Anakin being strong in the Force, but then later on you get that scene in TPM where Qui-Gon went out of his way to stop the plot and explain what they are to Anakin, and I remember thinking last time I watched TPM that it felt like a very, "Pay attention! This will be important later!" scene. It's also odd to me how TPM establishes that Anakin was Space Jesus, but after that this fact becomes less and less important, to the point that I don't think Luke and Leia ever actually find out that they're 1/4 divine. In the current canon, we know Snoke wanted Kylo Ren for his delicious Skywalker blood and he overtly tells Kylo that Han Solo is the weaker part of him, but it's not clear if Snoke knows about the Skywalker divinity. I don't know if we'll ever hear anyone reference Vader's miracle birth ever again, even though it's really weird that no one cares about that.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:26
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Ema Nymton posted:It's also odd to me how TPM establishes that Anakin was Space Jesus, but after that this fact becomes less and less important, to the point that I don't think Luke and Leia ever actually find out that they're 1/4 divine. In the current canon, we know Snoke wanted Kylo Ren for his delicious Skywalker blood and he overtly tells Kylo that Han Solo is the weaker part of him, but it's not clear if Snoke knows about the Skywalker divinity. I don't know if we'll ever hear anyone reference Vader's miracle birth ever again, even though it's really weird that no one cares about that. I like that. That knowledge was lost forever with the destruction of the Jedi and the fall of the Empire.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:29
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Ema Nymton posted:It's also odd to me how TPM establishes that Anakin was Space Jesus, but after that this fact becomes less and less important, to the point that I don't think Luke and Leia ever actually find out that they're 1/4 divine. In the current canon, we know Snoke wanted Kylo Ren for his delicious Skywalker blood and he overtly tells Kylo that Han Solo is the weaker part of him, but it's not clear if Snoke knows about the Skywalker divinity. I don't know if we'll ever hear anyone reference Vader's miracle birth ever again, even though it's really weird that no one cares about that. Anakin's father was a space trucker that Shmi was determined to forget. His high midichlorian count is a random mutation. The mistaken belief that Anakin could be some kind of messiah causes a lot of suffering and heartbreak.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:39
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MonsieurChoc posted:I like that. That knowledge was lost forever with the destruction of the Jedi and the fall of the Empire.
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Mar 2, 2018 17:30
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Well, the thing about a messiah is that you're supposed to trust in his divine guidance or you're hosed. The Jedi don't trust Anakin. Even at the last moment when Anakin tells Mace about Palpatine being a Sith, Mace doesn't trust him and tells him to stay behind, which is the precise moment the Jedi are destroyed. Had he taken Anakin with him, it would have been the end of Palpatine's plan right there. It would have been Anakin and Mace killing the last Sith Lord.
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Mar 2, 2018 19:05
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Hodgepodge posted:Well, the thing about a messiah is that you're supposed to trust in his divine guidance or you're hosed. The Jedi don't trust Anakin. Even at the last moment when Anakin tells Mace about Palpatine being a Sith, Mace doesn't trust him and tells him to stay behind, which is the precise moment the Jedi are destroyed. Had he taken Anakin with him, it would have been the end of Palpatine's plan right there. It would have been Anakin and Mace killing the last Sith Lord. Sheev wouldn't attack them if Anakin was there. He would go to trial, win, and execute order 66 somewhere down the line.
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Mar 2, 2018 19:09
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sassassin posted:Sheev wouldn't attack them if Anakin was there. He would go to trial, win, and execute order 66 somewhere down the line. Yeah, or he would have figured out some other way to force the fight, and Anakin still wouldn't have wanted to kill Sheev, since he was promising to save Padme's life. Sheev had this one pretty well covered.
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Mar 2, 2018 19:15
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thrawn527 posted:Yeah, or he would have figured out some other way to force the fight, and Anakin still wouldn't have wanted to kill Sheev, since he was promising to save Padme's life. He might have figured things out if Anakin was there, but Anakin went to the Jedi with Palpatine's confession, which makes a trial quite straightforward as well. Provoking a fight only works if he isn't provoking a fight with an arrest detail that Anakin is part of. Anakin only falls because he walks in on a situation where Palpatine can twist what Anakin doesn't know as he pleased, and his despair at killing Mace and betraying the Jedi in the heat of the moment is what makes his fall complete- if it wasn't something he believed was utterly unforgivable, he would have just arrested Palpatine himself, in line with his ideals. What the films show is that Palpatine succeeds because Mace doesn't trust Anakin. Why come up with contrafactual scenarios to contradict what the film shows you quite clearly? That's just making an active effort to ignore the film. The other point is that the Jedi have lots of chances to trust Anakin. The moment they start is when Palpatine's plan fails. That moment was just their last chance. If Mace had taken it, their trust in Anakin would have been cemented- he would have chosen the Jedi over the Sith and proven himself. Mace even says it quite plainly- he leaves Anakin behind because he needs to see for himself before granting Anakin his trust. He lacked faith- that is the downfall of the Jedi. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 19:47
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Hodgepodge posted:He might have figured things out if Anakin was there, but Anakin went to the Jedi with Palpatine's confession, which makes a trial quite straightforward as well. Um, I think you're forgetting who the Senate is. quote:What the films show is that Palpatine succeeds because Mace doesn't trust Anakin. Why come up with contrafactual scenarios to contradict what the film shows you quite clearly? That's just making an active effort to ignore the film. Yes, that is the way Palpatine achieves his goal, but to pretend Palpatine doesn't have back up plan upon back up plan is just silly. edit: You edited in this part, so I'll edit in my response. quote:The other point is that the Jedi have lots of chances to trust Anakin. The moment they start is when Palpatine's plan fails. That moment was just their last chance. If Mace had taken it, their trust in Anakin would have been cemented- he would have chosen the Jedi over the Sith and proven himself. Mace even says it quite plainly- he leaves Anakin behind because he needs to see for himself before granting Anakin his trust. He lacked faith- that is the downfall of the Jedi. There is no way to know the bolded part is true. Palpatine was deep inside Anakin's mind at this point, manipulating him at every level. Anakin was so close to completely lost that he could have still turned him during a trial, or in a different way had Mace shown up. Anakin was deeply damaged from the start, as evidenced by everything in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith up until that point. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 19:52
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thrawn527 posted:Um, I think you're forgetting who the Senate is. The guy who runs away from Yoda and immediately starts bragging about Anakin as he cowers. The guy who would have had to fight Anakin if he were there, and is only saved from Mace by Anakin. A guy whose plan hinges on presenting the removal of the Jedi to the Senate as a fair accompli. The Senate is an organization that had been propped up by the Jedi for years by that point. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 19:57
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Hodgepodge posted:The guy who runs away from Yoda and immediately starts bragging about Anakin as he cowers. And a man who defeats Yoda by literally throwing the Senate at him. And he could have easily defeated Mace at any moment. He was putting on a show for Anakin.
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Mar 2, 2018 19:57
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It's not just the moment that Mace leaves Anakin behind that demonstrates the Jedi's lack of trust, it's just the final instance of it. They've been literally berating him for having feelings since he was a child, and never wanted to train him in the first place. Maybe if the Jedi were nicer to the poor kid, he wouldn't have jumped into the arms of the creepy old guy who compliments him all the time and boosts his ego.
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Mar 2, 2018 19:58
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They should have at least freed his mom and brought her to coruscant.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:00
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thrawn527 posted:And a man who defeats Yoda by literally throwing the Senate at him. Defeating Yoda at that point means getting away. That is only meaningful because he has Vader. The only reason Mace doesn't kill him is because Mace stops to convince Anakin that he has no choice. The film shows you a fight in which Palpatine loses to Mace, but is saved by Anakin.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:01
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euphronius posted:They should have at least freed his mom and brought her to coruscant. Yeah, that seems like a huge oversight. Fine, Jedi aren't supposed to form attachments, but his mom is already an attachment. And I can't imagine he wasn't constantly thinking about how his mom was still a slave. Freeing her and bringing her to Coruscant would have, if anything, freed his mind up from distractions more, knowing she was safe and care for. The Jedi really hosed up there.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:02
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Hodgepodge posted:Defeating Yoda at that point means getting away. That is only meaningful because he has Vader. Sheev easily defeats all the other Jedi present in a matter of seconds, then toys with Mace until the moment Anakin is about to walk through the door. Then he cowers in "fear" once Anakin walks in, saying he is defenseless. Then, once Anakin has made his choice and attacked Mace, Sheev unleashes "unlimited power", killing Mace. The only moment he was "losing" to Mace was when Anakin was watching. This is not a coincidence. The fight was theater forcing Anakin's hand.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:03
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Mecha Gojira posted:It's not just the moment that Mace leaves Anakin behind that demonstrates the Jedi's lack of trust, it's just the final instance of it. Yeah, and each moment they fail to trust him brings him closer to Palpatine- but he is still loyal to the Jedi until he has killed Mace and feels there is no going back. Palpatine's hold is tenuous until that point. The parallel is to his choice between the Emperor and Luke in RotJ. His loyalty to his masters is not an easy thing to break, and doing so is each time a traumatic break from his life until that point.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:10
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thrawn527 posted:Yeah, that seems like a huge oversight. Fine, Jedi aren't supposed to form attachments, but his mom is already an attachment. And I can't imagine he wasn't constantly thinking about how his mom was still a slave. Freeing her and bringing her to Coruscant would have, if anything, freed his mind up from distractions more, knowing she was safe and care for. What happens if his mother gets mugged while out shopping? Are the Jedi supposed to guard her 24/7? What about Anakin's other big attachment (the one that actually leads to him joining Sheev)? Slavery wasn't the thing Anakin railed against. Death was. And the Jedi could not protect everyone Anakin loved from that. Nothing could (except Sheev, possibly, who knows).
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Mar 2, 2018 20:13
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True Qui gon should have killed her on the spot.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:14
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thrawn527 posted:Sheev easily defeats all the other Jedi present in a matter of seconds, then toys with Mace until the moment Anakin is about to walk through the door. Then he cowers in "fear" once Anakin walks in, saying he is defenseless. Then, once Anakin has made his choice and attacked Mace, Sheev unleashes "unlimited power", killing Mace. The only moment he was "losing" to Mace was when Anakin was watching. This is not a coincidence. The fight was theater forcing Anakin's hand. No, Mace had disarmed Palpatine and had him backed into a corner. Palpatine's own Force Lightning is killing him- Mace isn't taken off guard without a lightsaber like Luke is. The fight is over when Anakin walks in, without him Palpatine is dead.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:14
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euphronius posted:True He should have trusted in the will of the force and taken Shmi instead of Anakin.
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Mar 2, 2018 20:15
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