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painedforever posted:I've basically just read through Azzur's WarCraft II LP, so I'm wondering when they decided that Trolls have been around basically for ever (please note that I'm being very careful not to spoil one of the races that's new to WarCraft III). Probably around vanilla WoW, when they added in the Zandalari and Gurubashi, and boom suddenly the trolls are ancient and mysterious. Part of the problem with Warcraft lore, especially when it got into WoW, is that you can tell there was never any kind of bible of Azeroth's history and inhabitants. So the writers were constantly going by the seat of their pants, writing what sounded cool and not realizing or caring how it meshed with past lore or how it could be built on for the future.
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Mar 2, 2018 01:19
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Something they've actually started trying to rectify by creating the Chronicles series of sourcebooks, where they go very in-depth into history all over the world.
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Mar 2, 2018 01:46
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Regalingualius posted:Something they've actually started trying to rectify by creating the Chronicles series of sourcebooks, where they go very in-depth into history all over the world. And have already been contradicted by new lore.
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Mar 2, 2018 02:02
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You've never been one for comic books, have you Cyth? Because these kinda retcons are so small and insignificant compared to what you see in comic books...
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Mar 2, 2018 02:08
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Chapter XII: Dissension Hello everyone, and welcome back to Warcraft III. You know, after reviewing the Northrend map, and comparing it against where we're going to end up going next week, it's possible that Arthas landed on the shore of the Grizzly Hills, a heavily forested boreal zone situated between the Howling Fjord and the Dragonblight. I say that because the next mission has us assaulting Mal'Ganis' main base, found in Drak'Tharon Keep. Anyway, today's mission is short and sweet. It's also the penultimate level in the Human campaign. So by this time next week, we'll be a quarter done with Reign of Chaos.  This zeppelin coming in to our base camp is a neutral unit. Basically on select maps, you can buy them to act as air transport for your dudes. We won't be using them ourselves until we're several levels deep into the next campaign.   : I apologize, emissary, but the prince is away on an errand. What brings you to this desolate place? : By royal edict, you men are to return to Lordaeron immediately. Lord Uther has convinced the king to recall this expedition.: We're to just pick up and leave?: That's correct. My men report that the roads from here to the shore are held by the undead. You'll need to find an alternate route back to your ships. WoWPedia claims that this is not Captain Falric, but instead some jerk named Luc Valonforth. This actually brings up an interesting discussion point. For all of Warcraft III, the Captain was just some dude that went with Arthas. Then in WoW's second expansion, he was finally named as Luc Valonforth. Then even later in that same expansion, he became two additional people... Captain Falric, the man we already know, and Captain Marwyn. I've elected to not name Marwyn thusfar because it's confusing having two characters with the same portrait who ultimately filled the same role in the narrative. Marwyn only appears once in this game, in the capstone cinematic for this campaign. You might think that by using Thassarian as the base manager, I'm rewriting history. That's not entirely correct. Thassarian also accompanied Arthas to Northrend and he does have a larger part to play in the Warcraft narrative.    : Well, milord, your father had our troops recalled at Lord Uther's request.  : Isn't that a bit much, lad? : Burned down to their frames! No one goes home unti our job here is done!: If we're going home at all, it'll be in their boats. So starts another timed mission. This one is the easiest yet. We don't have to worry about managing the base at all. All we have to do is march Arthas, Muradin, and some mortar teams around the undead controlled path to the shore. We're given an Altar of Kings in case Arthas or Muradin die, as well as a bunch of farms for mechanics reasons we'll see in a moment. This path is incredibly linear, so let's just march ahead. 25 minutes doesn't sound like very much time, but as long as we stay on the move we'll be fine. It's also worth noting that we have a very slow passive gold income on this map thanks to the base camp employing what I'm pretty sure are two peasants at the mine. : We'll need more men to fight our way through the undead!: I've come across a few mercenary camps up here. Perhaps we can hire a few of them? The important thing to remember about this mission is to keep your mortar teams far enough back to stay out of harm's way. We're going to need them about halfway through.  We're also going to need them because there's buildings all over the place.   After that fight, one of our mortar teams is moving a lot slower. It turns out that the necromancers have the ability to cast cripple, reducing the unit's damage and movement speed. It also lasts a surprisingly long time too.  : drat Uther for forcing me to do this!This orc looking building here is a mercenary camp. They infrequently pop up during the campaign. You more often see them in RPG maps and such.    If we pay the nominal charges, we can hire the services of any of these mercenaries. So let's go ahead and buy a couple.  : I kill for you. : I kill for you. : It's clobberin' time! Now we have passive healing, some ranged attackers, and a powerful melee in the ogre. So our little  The path splits here, with progress being down, and an optional (but useless) reward for staying on the upper path.  A couple skeletons can be found up here.  This increases your sight range at night. It might have its uses, but what we're doing here is not among them.  This little overlook is a perfect sniping spot for our mortar teams. We can park them up here to cause chaos, while Arthas, Muradin, the trolls, and the ogre all go below to keep attention off them.  One of the random undead we kill drops this beauty. I don't know offhand how strong the effect is, but passive regeneration is always appreciated regardless.  At the far end of this little camp we find the first ship. The hint even suggests that if we were too cheap to buy mercs, that Muradin's storm bolt can be used in a pinch. This wasn't always the case. For a long time, these ships were tagged as mechanical units, which Storm Bolt doesn't affect. So this became a rare case of a patch changing something during the campaign.  : Very good, but there are still more ships to deal with! More Nerubians along the path. These guys are a pain to deal with, because they always split into tiny spiders when they die. There's actually a monster that shows up in the expansion maps that also multiplies on death. It's just as much of a pain in the rear end.  Well isn't that curious? This ziggurat bears a strong resemblance to the ones used by the undead forces. It's not a coincidence, either.  And protecting it is a Nerubian Queen. She has a powerful aura, hits hard, and splits into more on death. She can also raise the dead like a necromancer.  So to even the odds a little I have Muradin activate his ultimate, Avatar. So now he's going to be a wrecking ball for a while.  She drops a good reward, though!   A storm bolt from Avatar Muradin sinks the next ship outright. Not too bad at all! We're 40% done with the level inside of 8 minutes.  And even better, just around the corner is a new merc camp.  The berserker hits harder than the regular axe throwers. This is going by Warcraft II logic, which means...  This guy is an Ogre Magi. It's worth grabbing two of them just for access to Bloodlust, which makes the affected unit attack a lot faster.   This little red glow around the trolls' hands means they're under the effects of bloodlust.  Up the road from the second merc camp, past some murlocs barely worth mentioning, is why we need the mortar teams. This forest is impassable, so the only way we can clear it is with high explosives. If you were an idiot and let the mortar teams die, you're not entirely out of luck. If you follow the path up and around, you'll find another merc camp that sells goblin sappers. They detonate themselves in a suicidal explosion that deals massive damage. But we don't need their services because my squad of 10 units is kind of powerful.  Directly past the impassable forest of skeletal trees is the third ship.  Just past that is the last merc camp of the level!  Even stronger ogres? Sign me up!  Even better priests? Sounds good! Plus more healing magic.  Eh. I'm good. The game strongly suggests we buy these by making the next encounter against the only airborne enemies in the level. Between Muradin, the axe throwers, the berserkers, and both flavors of priests, I believe we're good.  This hint pops up when we approach a couple dragons.  Like I said, we're good.  Around the corner from the dragons is a cutscene.   The canyon just ahead is lined with quite a few ziggurats.  And at the end is the 4th boat.  The game is incredibly kind to us, though. Right next to the start of the canyon is a goblin merchant.  We have a hero who, currently, can turn wholly invincible for a very long time (Divine Shield level 2/3) and a nigh impassable canyon filled with aggressive undead defense towers.  Honestly we don't even need divine shield. Arthas has so much defense and health that he barely feels the shots from the towers.  This is what it looks like when using the Archmage skill Mass Teleport, which is what that amulet we bought does.  : Well done! Only one ship remains... By the way, don't try to run your squishy units through the gauntlet. They don't fare well.  The final stretch of the level is something of a gauntlet. There's quite a few ghouls, many necromancers, and several buildings.  Do you see all of those corpses outside of this building? It generates them. As you might imagine, this makes base defense a little simpler for the undead. A couple necromancers can raise a quick army in case of emergency.  This collection of undead marks our final obstacle. You can tell they're serious because there's two abominations! (Never mind the fact we've been fighting them regularly since mission 3.)  It's not enough.   : Prince Arthas?  : drat beasts! : Kill them all!: What? You traitor!  : Listen to me, all of you! There is no way home for any of us, save through victory! In this land we will stand or fall together. Now, return to the base and man your posts.  NEXT TIME: Frostmourne
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Mar 2, 2018 11:41
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I love how goblins are these little merchant/tinkers, some of whom you can pay to blow themselves up.
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Mar 2, 2018 14:13
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Arthas, you utter, utter bastard! That's all I'm going to say for now. For the mo' let's see what we have for the Neutral units (i.e. Mercenaries) in this mission. I can't find different quotes for the Ice Troll Priest or the various flavours of Ogres, so I'm assuming that they don't have them, and that they share quotes. Makes sense to me, I guess, because you don't see them all that often in the game. ****** Line time! Ready lines are used by units when they're produced. What lines are used when they're initially selected. Yes lines are used when they're given a move order. Attack lines are used when they're given an attack order. Warcry is used randomly for Attack when attacking hero characters. (Thanks to Drakenel for the correction) Pissed is what you get when you keep clicking a unit and it exhausts the What lines. Special is for builder units, and for certain special units, e.g. Uther, who is an AI-controlled character. Ice Troll Trolls as basically stereotypical Jamaicans. I can't tell if that's racist or not. Ready
What
Yes
Attack
Warcry
Pissed
Ogre: The Ogres have two heads, and the heads will trade off on which one is speaking at a time. Ready
What
Yes
Attack
Warcry
Pissed
Goblin Sapper: The Goblin Sapper is made up of 3 tiny little goblins... that explode. Usually they speak together... except when they don't. Ready
What
Yes
Attack
Pissed
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Mar 2, 2018 14:41
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While Arthas is an utter bastard for his actions here, he's showing some textbook strategy from Sun Tzu, which is pretty cool. "Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face death, there is nothing they may not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth their uttermost strength. Close the exits and put your back against the wall." Otherwise, this is definitely the point where Arthas starts becoming irredeemable.
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Mar 2, 2018 16:04
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Relevant music for this section: Burn the Fleet by Thrice I liked the variety this level gives by switching up the units you control, and giving you some glimpses of how later factions work with some abilities from the orcs and [redacted]. Does this level have a WoW raid equivalent?
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Mar 2, 2018 17:03
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Burning the ships is one thing. You could almost argue that it was necessary. There's a lot of stories in which it's shown as a noble thing. Or you could put it down to Arthas acting before thinking things through. No, no, what makes him a bastard is he blames the mercenaries that he hired to help him get to the ships. Arthas has gone 'round the bend, over the edge, you can pick the appropriate idiom. Two missions ago, I think that a lot of us thought that Arthas made the right decision, even if he didn't explain himself well enough (or at all) to his allies. In this mission? There really is no good reason for him to have the mercenaries killed. There is a justification for it ("I want my men to follow me, and not question my intentions"), but the justification is evil.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:02
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I remember playing this level in college. I had a roommate who was big into playing Paladins in D&D, where maintaining the moral high ground is a necessity for keeping the Class powers. He watched me play this level and mused about all the betrayal and lies Arthas was committing and how his Paladin characters would never get away with such a thing. I told him about the Culling and we agreed it must be different for Paladins in Azeroth. It’s about the power, not the Good. In D&D, Arthas probably wouldn’t be a Paladin right now. It was nice to have Trolls, Goblin Sappers, & Ogres for this level. Got me a bit nostalgic for WC2.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:06
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By all evidence, the Light in Warcraft doesn't require a particular moral code. Instead, it relies on sheer personal conviction and strength of will that you believe you're doing the right thing. Arthas is far from the last villain in Warcraft to wield the Holy Light in evil acts, and gnome priests just consider themselves a specialized sort of mage, their prayers just magical incantations.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:12
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The part that I’ve always thought makes no sense about this part? Muradin. So we were trapped in this frozen hellhole continent expecting to be nothing but a cold corpse eaten by spiders, then the chance for escape comes. Awesome, thanks Arthas! ...Wait, what the gently caress? You want to burn the entire fleet, trapping us here again? No, I am not okay with that.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:21
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There’s at least one faction in WoW that demonstrates that you don’t even have to be Good to still be a Paladin, but talking about them would still be rather spoiler-y of this campaign and the next one.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:24
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Regalingualius posted:There’s at least one faction in WoW that demonstrates that you don’t even have to be Good to still be a Paladin, but talking about them would still be rather spoiler-y of this campaign and the next one. It's okay, that was all handwaved at the end of TBC as being God Works In Mysterious Ways and they're generic good-guy paladins now.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:26
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Cythereal posted:It's okay, that was all handwaved at the end of TBC as being God Works In Mysterious Ways and they're generic good-guy paladins now. Ohh, nah, I was thinking of the other highly controversial group of “holy warriors”.
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Mar 2, 2018 18:32
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MagusofStars posted:The part that I’ve always thought makes no sense about this part? Muradin. Muradin knew Arthas when he was a child - he taught Arthas how to fight, even (mentioned in the WC3 manual, I believe). He wants to help his friend. He questions burning the ships, but when Arthas shows he's determined to stay the course, Muradin decides to support his friend. We'll see how long that lasts, though...
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Mar 2, 2018 22:39
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Muradin also came to Northrend on his own ill-conceived quest that he doesn't want to leave unfinished, so they're two peas in a pod, really.
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Mar 2, 2018 23:07
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Muradin also came to Northrend on his own ill-conceived quest that he doesn't want to leave unfinished, so they're two peas in a pod, really. And I'm sure things will work out great for both of them!
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Mar 2, 2018 23:48
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Everyone knows dwarves have a great history with their treasure expeditions.
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Mar 2, 2018 23:53
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Robindaybird posted:Everyone knows dwarves have a great history with their treasure expeditions. Wait, is there another important dwarf treasure expedition in warcraft, or is this just a reference to the hobbit?
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Mar 2, 2018 23:58
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lobster22221 posted:Wait, is there another important dwarf treasure expedition in warcraft, or is this just a reference to the hobbit? and Wagner (along with Norse Myth)
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Mar 3, 2018 00:09
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let's just say that Dwarves are not known for planning well when it comes to going after treasure, or a lot of expeditions
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Mar 3, 2018 00:17
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Well, this is a thing that later lore states but is accepted as being historical: Bronzebeard Dwarves are well known for having this society called "The League of Explorers", of which Bann Bronzebeard, Muradin's little brother, is the leader. They've discovered a lot of treasures and historical knowledge. Their survival rates are also well under 50%, because safety concerns aren't dwarvish things.
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Mar 3, 2018 00:21
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Siegkrow posted:safety concerns aren't dwarvish things. If a few people have to die in order to make explosions, they had a life well lived.
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Mar 3, 2018 00:27
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yet it's the Gnomes that nuke their own capital, you'd think that would be more of a Dwarf thing considering their interest in things that go boom
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Mar 3, 2018 00:29
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The dwarves' penchant for self destruction more comes from the fact that they're really interested in Titan relics, and where there's Titan stuff there's... things that should not be disturbed unless you're a seriously battle-hardened adventurer, preferably with four to twenty-four equally capable friends.
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Mar 3, 2018 00:32
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lobster22221 posted:If a few people have to die in order to make explosions, they had a life well lived. Aces High posted:yet it's the Gnomes that nuke their own capital, you'd think that would be more of a Dwarf thing considering their interest in things that go boom No, that's goblins. There is a point in a WoW expansion where they use magic to talk about your ancestors. If you play a Gobbo, the quest giver stops, coughs in their hand and mentions how MOST of your ancestors died in explosions. Self inflicted. Dwarves are juuuust tough enough that they think being cautious is a waste of time. They are also foolhardy, brave, and most of the time are too drunk to walk straight. Siegkrow fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 00:34
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I was more curious who was hiring mercenaries before the humans showed up so that they are even around looking for work in the frozen north in the middle of nowhere? Do the Nerubians hire Mercs to fight the Dreadlords and the Undead?
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Mar 3, 2018 01:07
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Xenocides posted:I was more curious who was hiring mercenaries before the humans showed up so that they are even around looking for work in the frozen north in the middle of nowhere? Do the Nerubians hire Mercs to fight the Dreadlords and the Undead? I always wondered why mercs were willing to fight for the undead. Then again, I can't remember if that is in the undead campaign
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Mar 3, 2018 01:13
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Xenocides posted:I was more curious who was hiring mercenaries before the humans showed up so that they are even around looking for work in the frozen north in the middle of nowhere? Do the Nerubians hire Mercs to fight the Dreadlords and the Undead? Are you familiar with Moose Lodges? Basically a club where guys hang out and drink and play poker or whatever. I imagine the Northrend merc camps are the Azerothian equivalent, and Arthas just hired some trolls who wanted to play cards with their buds.
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Mar 3, 2018 01:18
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Taking in account they are mostly ice trolls? Most likely Drakkari trolls. Northernd isn't an empty continent, the Drakkari civilization thrived and fought against the scourge until the players got there in WoW. And taking in account how many towns there are when you get there, there must have been some colonization attempts over the years.
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Mar 3, 2018 01:23
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I don't think Northrend was supposed to be completely uninhabitable, even after the undead showed up. The Northrend expansion in WoW had the already established towns of Farshire and Valgarde, along with hunter communities in the Grizzly Hills. Probably not a population capable of needing or sustaining mercenaries and I can't imagine why Drakkari would volunteer for such a thing, or why Ogres would even be in Northrend. But its a good idea in Warcraft lore to not sweat the small stuff.
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Mar 3, 2018 01:33
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Reminder that the very first dwarves seen in the Warcraft franchise are suicide bombers equivalent to the sappers.
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Mar 3, 2018 01:45
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DoubleNegative posted:Are you familiar with Moose Lodges? Basically a club where guys hang out and drink and play poker or whatever. I imagine the Northrend merc camps are the Azerothian equivalent, and Arthas just hired some trolls who wanted to play cards with their buds. Thanks. This is now my head canon. Arthas and Muradin handed them some drinking money to punch stuff and throw axes and they cheerfully killed spiders and dead things, thrilled at the upcoming month long poker/booze fest that awaited them. They are all ready to go have fun when a bunch of humans run up and cut them all down. Makes it more tragic. Arthas, you BASTARD!
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Mar 3, 2018 01:53
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Is there any actual preWoW history of trolls working with non-alliance humans other than this mission?
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Mar 3, 2018 02:10
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I know one of the towns you can find in WoW is Arthas' camp. Hell, if I'm not wrong, the point about it being built in top of the old undead base is a thing, because the lower levels got infested by the undead.
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Mar 3, 2018 02:37
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Siegkrow posted:I know one of the towns you can find in WoW is Arthas' camp. Hell, if I'm not wrong, the point about it being built in top of the old undead base is a thing, because the lower levels got infested by the undead. That's Arthas' base from the final human mission. The one here is the Forgotten Shore in southeast Dragonblight, haunted by ghosts.
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Mar 3, 2018 02:45
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lobster22221 posted:Is there any actual preWoW history of trolls working with non-alliance humans other than this mission? Don't believe so. Humans are pretty late to the scene in terms of Warcraft races and after the fall of their empires and the Sundering, trolls were isolationist at best, hostile at worst. I think the only recorded major interaction between humans and troll pre-WoW was the Troll Wars.
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Mar 3, 2018 03:16
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1stGear posted:Don't believe so. Humans are pretty late to the scene in terms of Warcraft races and after the fall of their empires and the Sundering, trolls were isolationist at best, hostile at worst. I think the only recorded major interaction between humans and troll pre-WoW was the Troll Wars. Only major interaction post-WoW, too.  Humans and trolls have been at war with each other in Warcraft effectively forever.
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Mar 3, 2018 03:25
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