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The posts about primary voting not mattering at local and state levels is absolute horseshit. It's conspiratorial horseshit. The post about it being impossible to change DNC rules by electing more socialists is horseshit. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 21:14
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Potato Salad posted:The posts about primary voting not mattering at local and state levels is absolute horseshit. It's conspiratorial horseshit. The amount of faith you have in the DNC is staggering, given their track record. Isn't it much more likely that even if we somehow elected a million socialists to the DNC that no rules would change? In fact, it's highly probable they would preemptively change the rules to prevent such an outcome from occurring. We see this time and time again when they poo poo over leftist primary challengers and put their thumbs on the scale to back lovely centrists. You have an unwavering faith in the ability of these major institutions to respond positively and I have no idea where you developed this faith. I'm specifically calling it faith because it's very similar to a religious belief, in that you have no actual evidence that proves your faith is correct. E: VVVV That's not even an argument, that's just contradiction. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 21:15
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WampaLord posted:Isn't it much more likely that even if we somehow elected a million socialists to the DNC that no rules would change? Nnnnnnnnoooope. This is "Soros is a Zionist Antifa Illuminati" levels of misunderstanding of the DNC. I was at the Ellison v Perez vote. You weren't. These are normal people in the DNC. This is a reasonable goal that is in reach.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:18
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fishmech posted:Wow, sounds like the left should have united in the first round instead of doing the typical squabbling which allowed Macron and Le Pen be the two choices in the second round. I guess that would have required a bunch of people to have voted for a "lesser evil" instead of their preferred candidate though, boo hoo hoo. too bad the french version of the dem party pulled the "our right wing candidate lost, we endorse an even more right wing third party candidate instead of our own nominee" trick. really sucked for hamon when his own party stabbed him in the back and threw the primary to macron like that guess lesser evilism doesn't apply to centrists like it's expected to apply to leftists
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Mar 3, 2018 21:21
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Potato Salad posted:I was at the Ellison v Perez vote. You weren't. loving lmao.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:22
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VitalSigns posted:Maybe centrists shouldn't have voted for one of the most evil first-round candidates: Macron In the first round, Macron took 24.01% of the vote, Le Pen 21.30% and Fillon 20%. If just Mélenchon's and Hamon's voters had voted together (presumably for Melenchon, as he was 19.58% of the vote by himself), they would have pulled 25.94% of the vote, easily landing that as the top rank choice in the first round. This would likely have resulted in a left vs Macron second round (or possibly a left vs Le Pen or left vs Fillon second round, assuming as some Macron supporters may have fled to other parties over the news of the left being more unified). You could even have lost quite a few of those votes and it would still be Macron and a leftist in the top two slots.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:24
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You sit in this proverbial armchair, waving your hands around talking about invisible forces and billionaires controlling the political weather. The reality is far more mundane than this -- status quo Democrats listen to moneyed interests far more than they listen to any kind of economic or social progressive input. None of these people have mind control devices. The fluoridation in your water does not control your society. The are detestable, highly greedy, comfortable fuckos who are as likely to ratfuck an up-down rules vote as we are to suspending the 2018 elections.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:25
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WampaLord posted:loving lmao. If you want to discount Ellison like Viral suggested we abandon Bernie, we're hosed and your energy spent fighting for progress is better spent in another country. We cannot fix this loving wage slavery society without earnest, popular stepping stones. You'll get crushed every time before making yet another Bad Dems thread that toes the line on the morality of functionally giving up. If your low-content "lamo" comment is about whether Ellison winning would change anything about, gently caress, I don't know, the funding and financing roles of the chair of the DNC, you yield any right to complain about centrists like Ossoff torching consultant money better spent on ground games that work in the favor of progress.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:31
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fishmech posted:In the first round, Macron took 24.01% of the vote, Le Pen 21.30% and Fillon 20%. Too bad centrists in the PS split the vote by endorsing Macron
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Mar 3, 2018 21:35
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Potato Salad posted:If you want to discount Ellison like Viral suggested we abandon Bernie, we're hosed and your energy spent fighting for progress is better spent in another country. We cannot fix this loving wage slavery society without earnest, popular stepping stones. You'll get crushed every time before making yet another Bad Dems thread that toes the line on the morality of functionally giving up. He was lmao'ing because it was a ridiculous comment to make.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:38
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VitalSigns posted:Too bad centrists in the PS split the vote by endorsing Macron That's nice dear. In reality a bunch of them didn't vote for Macron. In fact, enough them didn't vote for Macron that if they had voted for Melenchon instead, Melenchon would be in the second round. Surely you do agree at least that both Hamon and Melenchon are significantly more left than Macron?
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Mar 3, 2018 21:39
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Potato Salad posted:I was at the Ellison v Perez vote. You weren't. Was is reaching these hallowed heights that freed you from the shackles of having to obey the rules of logic, or did that happen earlier?
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Mar 3, 2018 21:41
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Oh Snapple! posted:He was lmao'ing because it was a ridiculous comment to make. It isn't rediculous. He's got a perspective that an outsider to activism tends to have, at least at first. You learn, with experience, that the real world is more mundane and more pliant than wailing hopelessness narrative would have you believe. The energy last year for feeling the loving Bern was high, and many Perez voters did so out of being cowed and scared despite their recognition for a need for a walk-the-walk progressive agenda. E - haven't paid a dog tax (or attached files are fucky) so here it is 
Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 21:41
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fishmech posted:That's nice dear. In reality a bunch of them didn't vote for Macron. In fact, enough them didn't vote for Macron that if they had voted for Melenchon instead, Melenchon would be in the second round. you realize the centrists self-destructed the PS after their pick, valls, lost to hamon right? you realize that it's idiotic to expect a party in turmoil to immediately unify with a new party right? like, maybe if the PS hadn't been ripped into pieces by its leadership after the primary, a push to unify with melenchon could've occurred, but they didn't have enough time to organize poo poo like that post-implosion in the middle of france's much shorter election cycle also, melenchon and hamon are working together a lot these days, so the unification is in fact happening. Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 21:45
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Potato Salad posted:You sit in this proverbial armchair, waving your hands around talking about invisible forces and billionaires controlling the political weather. The reality is far more mundane than this -- status quo Democrats listen to moneyed interests far more than they listen to any kind of economic or social progressive input. None of these people have mind control devices. The fluoridation in your water does not control your society. The are detestable, highly greedy, comfortable fuckos who are as likely to ratfuck an up-down rules vote as we are to suspending the 2018 elections. Well I am not in the USA, but I have to say. This is the most stupid take you could possibly make. "You all sit there doing nothing whilst I go out and help" may be personally edifying, but the fact that a variety of people appear to be doing what you did and are finding fault with the institution as it currently exists is apparently making you call everyone who doesn't both act AND think like you "not doing enough". The operative question is, why should people try and reform a party that is only going to do stuff like but Perez on the ticket solely so that progressives did not have an instant win. Does that sound like the sort of action that will encourage people to engage more, or is it that people will just see the party as a more impoverished bunch of ratfucking dicks? It is not ridiculous to talk about /point at all of the billionaires who have the democrats on call and then say "why is this worth reform, why not just start again?" You seem to be arguing more to make yourself feel better about getting involved and justify yourself when people, quite mildly, call you out on being really really bad at convincing people. Potato Salad posted:If you want to discount Ellison like Viral suggested we abandon Bernie, we're hosed and your energy spent fighting for progress is better spent in another country. We cannot fix this loving wage slavery society without earnest, popular stepping stones. You'll get crushed every time before making yet another Bad Dems thread that toes the line on the morality of functionally giving up. 1) Your confusing Vitalsigns with someone else. Self unaware I think. 2) Would you demand the same from everyone, everywhere? Leaving and going to another country I mean, because if you are wanting to be pragmatic, you are going about this the wrong way. 3) You are talking to people Who do vote in the primaries you fool. If you are so keen on not being "always online twice" try convincing people outside in the real world. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 21:46
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Josef bugman posted:1) Your confusing Vitalsigns with someone else. Self unaware I think. 2) Would you demand the same from everyone, everywhere? Because if you are wanting to be pragmatic, you are going about this the wrong way. 3) You are talking to people Who do vote int he primaries you insufferable berk. If you are so keen on not being "always online twice" try convincing people outside in the real world. For the part of your post that I didn't quote, tearing down the DNC is starting again. A third party will take further than a decade to build, and FYI that's being built right now in the DSA. We're running candidates as Dems for a reason. Maybe ask yourself why that is, instead of theorizing on a "gently caress it 3rd party only" that no serious movement is actually treading. Now, on the quoted part. 1) VitalSigns posted:Potato Salad, taking the popular "murdering foreign children is good, I mean are Arabs and Pashtuns actually people" position It was indeed Viral. 2) Pragmatism is for the real world. You're talking with someone who's (3) supported socialism with sore feet since Bernie's incremental takeover of the Burlington's mayoral office, and at that time I still considered myself Republican. I'm well aware of the largely naysayer and vote-in-primaries-but-peddle-hopelessness audience in this thread is. I'm not here to change minds, I'm here to plant seeds as well as prepare for lip-service leftism resistance at doorsteps.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:05
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Condiv posted:you realize the centrists self-destructed the PS after their pick, valls, lost to hamon right? you realize that it's idiotic to expect a party in turmoil to immediately unify with a new party right? like, maybe if the PS hadn't been ripped into pieces by its leadership after the primary, a push to unify with melenchon could've occurred, but they didn't have enough time to organize poo poo like that post-implosion in the middle of france's much shorter election cycle Yes I realize it's the French Left's fault they refused to pick a French Left candidate to agree on, thus guaranteeing there were no French Left candidates in the second round. That's why it rings so hollow when they mope in about how boo hoo hoo i only had Macron and Le Pen to choose from - its because they hosed up unifying, again. Again, you wouldn't even need the whole 6%+ of Hamon voters to go Melenchon to get him into second round ahead of Le Pen et al, you'd need less than 1/3 of hamon's votes added on to Melenchon to tick up over Le Pen.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:08
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Maybe it'd be easier to unify if liberals didn't stab PS in the back when their guy didn't win the primary
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Mar 3, 2018 22:10
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VitalSigns posted:Maybe it'd be easier to unify if liberals didn't stab PS in the back when their guy didn't win the primary Ah yes, "stabbed in the back" forced a bunch of people to not vote Melenchon because ??? We already see that most of the Left vote coalesced in Melenchon, enough to nearly be in the second round anyway. What magical neoliberal forcefield kept another 2% of the vote from going for Melenchon instead of Hamon? fishmech fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 22:17
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So, I've not wanted to acknowledge Fishmech, but... I'm afraid of what happened in France will happen here with respect to the crop of leftists who seemed to be out for their pound of flesh more than actually taking a channel to power. That's why I'm focused on pushing back against hopelessness narratives and conspiracy theories about the DNC literally discarding a popular Keith v Tom had Keith had just a few more votes or less-scared sympathizers. Josef, I get your "these posters vote in primaries" frustration, but understand (a) this is a thread on lesser evil voting and (b) that amplifying the notion that the DNC can't be hijacked is going to splash into diminished participation overall. I'm going to cite the failure of the"turn on, tune in, drop out" counterculture "movement" that yielded majority to Silent Majority totalitarianism that's dragged progress backwards since the seventies. Please bear in mind that the US is a literal trolley problem.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:18
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Potato Salad posted:For the part of your post that I didn't quote, tearing down the DNC is starting again. A third party will take further than a decade to build, and FYI that's being built right now in the DSA. We're running candidates as Dems for a reason. Maybe ask yourself why that is, instead of theorizing on a "gently caress it 3rd party only" that no serious movement is actually treading. And yet the DNC is still in the hands of the people who hosed it. Why is your method better if it does not give even the appearance of change? I would agree with you, a third party would take a very long time to build up and make work. However, that means it behoves the democrats to set out a moral and practical reason why people should not attempt to do so. If you just say "well it won't work/ it'll be hard" then I can respond with "well it might be, but perhaps it needs doing anyway". Also, to say that "no serious movement is trending" is partially because there are still people who believe in the system, but that can and will decrease if the democrats have yet another time in governance during which they continue to try and gut both themselves and their base. 1) Fair enough, but at the same time I have seen Vital say that they voted Bernie. That is lesser of two evils to them, its just that not everyone has the same moral calculus and you need to make a case for why they should follow yours. 2) Why do you think people aren't allowed to be unhappy or despairing. Why can't people gesture at something and go "shits hosed" even as they try and fix it. "urgh, why can't you be more positive" is just demented. Let people do the work and complain whilst they do it. Or try and persuade others why they should bother being engaged. Don't just go "I am more positive about the future, therefore I am better than you at politics".
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Mar 3, 2018 22:19
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Immigrants rights groups are as likely or more to protest Pelosi or Schumer. To use them to defend the dnc is ridiculous.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:27
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Potato Salad posted:Josef, I get your "these posters vote in primaries" frustration, but understand (a) this is a thread on lesser evil voting and (b) that amplifying the notion that the DNC can't be hijacked is going to splash into diminished participation overall. I'm going to cite the failure of the"turn on, tune in, drop out" counterculture "movement" that yielded majority to Silent Majority totalitarianism that's dragged progress backwards since the seventies. Or it could be that you can blame the existing power structure more than blaming any individuals that are part of it. Perhaps this is where the disagreement is. You appear to be, essentially, blaming people for going "gently caress this". Maybe people are just trying to live and suddenly just because they haven't paid attention to something they thought wasn't important your now saying that it's "Your fault for not listening". Yeah, maybe it is, but it helps nothing. Let people have despair if they are doing what you need them to. Don't force people to smile when they have to make choices they personally don't like but feel like they need to do, it is terrifyingly creepy to me to want people to be happy in doing this sort of thing.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:28
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Josef bugman posted:0) And yet the DNC is still in the hands of the people who hosed it. Why is your method better if it does not give even the appearance of change? I would agree with you, a third party would take a very long time to build up and make work. However, that means it behoves the democrats to set out a moral and practical reason why people should not attempt to do so. If you just say "well it won't work/ it'll be hard" then I can respond with "well it might be, but perhaps it needs doing anyway". Also, to say that "no serious movement is trending" is partially because there are still people who believe in the system, but that can and will decrease if the democrats have yet another time in governance during which they continue to try and gut both themselves and their base. 0) I'm going to take a cheap, but I argue important, step of asking again for your take on why Social Dems, DSA, and communist candidates are going to the polls as Dem candidates. 1) I'm reasonable sure VS was Berning too. The "actually, Potato is irredeemable because Bernie is a brownkiller" was a post made out of bad faith, intended more as a weapon than something to counter a point. A point he seemed to already understand. 2) If this was only bellyaching, sure. However, this goes beyond bellyaching. I contributed to research last year that is now published on the repackaging of right wing talking points from earnest leftist outlets. I'm convinced that we're in an information war right now, and if the only fallout of signal amplifying pessimistic twists of reality was bellyaching, I wouldn't care.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:29
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joepinetree posted:Immigrants rights groups are as likely or more to protest Pelosi or Schumer. To use them to defend the dnc is ridiculous. Schumer, Pelosi, and establishment Dems are a problem? You don't say?
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Mar 3, 2018 22:30
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No I voted for Hillary in the general. And it didn't work, turns out voters aren't inspired by "well of course I can sell you out to Goldman-Sachs, what are you gonna do? Vote Trump? Stay home? Ha, we've got America by the balls!" so maybe it's time to look at a different strategy if we want to win.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:33
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Josef bugman posted:Or it could be that you can blame the existing power structure more than blaming any individuals that are part of it. Perhaps this is where the disagreement is. You appear to be, essentially, blaming people for going "gently caress this". Maybe people are just trying to live and suddenly just because they haven't paid attention to something they thought wasn't important your now saying that it's "Your fault for not listening". Happy nothing, I'm in loving Georgia and the only actual victory we had was beating back Norwood by supporting a piece of poo poo from the current mayoral office. I'd have not lifted a finger against Norwood after Vincent Fort lost the jungle, expect Norwood had to then go and whip out the old dogwhistles and hand them out to local law enforcement to peddle. Happy nothing, in the deep south this war is pain.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:34
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VitalSigns posted:look at a different strategy if we want to win. Can I introduce you to a DSA chapter, maybe? I'll again draw a line here: ask yourself why traditionally impossibly-left candidates like (gasp!) Socialists (faints in 1950s living room) are running as Dems right now, and have even won seats.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:35
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Potato Salad posted:Can I introduce you to a DSA chapter, maybe? Potato Salad posted:I'll again draw a line here: ask yourself why traditionally impossibly-left candidates are running as Dems right now, and have even won seats. They're winning because they're running on actually making the lives of everyone in the Democratic coalition better, rather than telling themselves it's okay to be worthless and corrupt and to chase after racist suburbanites because everyone who is hurt by Republicans winning owes Team Blue their votes?
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Mar 3, 2018 22:39
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fishmech posted:Yes I realize it's the French Left's fault they refused to pick a French Left candidate to agree on, thus guaranteeing there were no French Left candidates in the second round. That's why it rings so hollow when they mope in about how boo hoo hoo i only had Macron and Le Pen to choose from - its because they hosed up unifying, again. and again, the machinery to get those 6% of hamon voters to go to melenchon didn't exist anymore cause the centrists destroyed it. what part of the PS was rudderless do you not understand fishmech? how do you expect them to instantly unify the PS with melenchon's third party after an unanticipated betrayal by the center of the party? the center quickly solidified around macron because they obviously had planned to betray the PS if they lost to hamon. and so the former leadership of PS was not in disarray in the middle of the general, unlike the new left leadership which clearly did not expect to be knifed in the back because the petulant center did not get its way. the worst thing you can fault the left for in the french election is having too much faith in weaselly centrists. Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 22:40
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I need to ask, are all of you here just trying to justify your inaction or third-party votes? Because if so, then this topic is a waste of everyone's time. I'm not hearing any good arguments against the ideas in the OP.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:41
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VitalSigns posted:They're winning because they're running on actually making the lives of everyone in the Democratic coalition better, rather than telling themselves it's okay to be worthless and corrupt and to chase after racist suburbanites because everyone who is hurt by Republicans winning owes Team Blue their votes?  I'm glad you've come around.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:41
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fishmech posted:Wow, sounds like the left should have united in the first round instead of doing the typical squabbling which allowed Macron and Le Pen be the two choices in the second round. I guess that would have required a bunch of people to have voted for a "lesser evil" instead of their preferred candidate though, boo hoo hoo. This is a pretty ridiculous and uninformed take on what happened in France. The left rallied behind an actual leftist, then the party that the leftist won leadership in quietly tanked his chances on all levels. They took their ball and went home.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:44
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Condiv posted:and again, the machinery to get those 6% of hamon voters to go to melenchon didn't exist anymore cause the centrists destroyed it. what part of the PS was rudderless do you not understand fishmech? how do you expect them to instantly unify the PS with melenchon's third party after an unanticipated betrayal by the center of the party? The machinery to get people to realize they should just vote for Melenchon instead of sticking with Hamon and the collapsing PS is called "a brain". Though I guess I'd have to agree a significant portion of the French Left lacked one of those. Remember, you don't even need all of the Hamon vote to get Melenchon in the second round. You need less than a third. And it had been widely reported in the polls and news that Hamon was continuing to lose favor with Melenchon being the primary beneficiary. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize the best option for the left in the first round was Melenchon by that point. Neurolimal posted:This is a pretty ridiculous and uninformed take on what happened in France. The left rallied behind an actual leftist, then the party that the leftist won leadership in quietly tanked his chances on all levels. Why do you think Melenchon isn't a real leftist?
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Mar 3, 2018 22:44
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SSNeoman posted:I need to ask, are all of you here just trying to justify your inaction or third-party votes? Because if so, then this topic is a waste of everyone's time. I'm not hearing any good arguments against the ideas in the OP. what would i need to justify ssneoman? we're here to discuss whether the lesser of two evils strategy is worthwhile at all.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:45
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fishmech posted:The machinery to get people to realize they should just vote for Melenchon instead of sticking with Hamon and the collapsing PS is called "a brain". Though I guess I'd have to agree a significant portion of the French Left lacked one of those. and that's why most of the left jumped to melenchon fishmech. but you can't honestly expect every single person to jump ship without convincing. maybe you don't have a functioning brain if you can't understand even the most basic aspects of human behavior
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Mar 3, 2018 22:48
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Blaming everyone on "the French Left" for the 6% of the electorate who remained loyal to the PS after PS was destroyed when liberals decided they'd rather wreck the party than let someone too far left win is a bit ridiculous fishmech. It takes time to convince every single last person in the country to do something.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:48
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fishmech posted:Why do you think Melenchon isn't a real leftist? I think he's an idiot. I also dont think the guy who wrote-in Lincoln Chafee should be critiquing swathes of leftists in any country on unity and practical voting.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:50
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Potato Salad posted:0) I'm going to take a cheap, but I argue important, step of asking again for your take on why Social Dems, DSA, and communist candidates are going to the polls as Dem candidates. 0) Because it is the only way to change things locally, but nationally the vast amount of problems come from the way that "the party" sits on people it doesn't like in order to make things better for itself and it's backers. Also, I am glad of that, but if (as other people are mentioning) people keep getting ratfucked in primaries and then still asked to vote for people that don't hold their views? I think they are morally okay to go "no". Obviously it is up to the individual, but I don't begrudge people that. 1) I suspect it is more a method of critiquing being happy with table scraps as it were. Why be happy with Bernie, he may have done better, but you guys would still have a lot of the same problems. The reforming vs the revolutionary problem is a powerful one and if you believe in the first you need to argue it well. 2) Prove it. I mean, seriously you don't see how pointing at bad-dems and going "gently caress this person" may actually improve things? Would you vote for a dem even if they were basically blue republicans? Because that is how some people feel about some candidates and they have every right to. Potato Salad posted:Happy nothing, I'm in loving Georgia and the only actual victory we had was beating back Norwood by supporting a piece of poo poo from the current mayoral office. I'd have not lifted a finger against Norwood after Vincent Fort lost the jungle, expect Norwood had to then go and whip out the old dogwhistles and hand them out to local law enforcement to peddle. Then why are you so cross about other people being less hopeful if they are doing it? I don't understand why this is so important to you.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:51
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Potato Salad posted:
Yeah, Lesser Evilism is poison that's allowed the Democratic Party to rot to the point that it lost to the most hated most appalling candidate maybe ever, and now people are recognizing that fact and running on actually trying to win votes rather than min-maxing how evil they can be and still squeak by with 50.1% of the vote
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Mar 3, 2018 22:52
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