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svenkatesh posted:Is this a serious question? The answer is yes. What's the point of having democracy if the elected government's first step is going to be constitutional reforms that lead to absolute power (ala Egypt, after Morsi was elected), which inevitably is followed by persecuting minorities? Are you for real? You’re suggesting that reign of terror that Al sisi has unleashed on the egyptian people, the thousands shot in the streets, snetenced to death in kangaroo courts, the open and widespread use of torture and disappearance (murder) of anyone who criticises the regime, is preferable to Morsi’s flailing attempts to wring power away from these people?
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Mar 4, 2018 23:18
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svenkatesh posted:Is this a serious question? The answer is yes. What's the point of having democracy if the elected government's first step is going to be constitutional reforms that lead to absolute power (ala Egypt, after Morsi was elected), which inevitably is followed by persecuting minorities? And I get called a neocon lol.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:20
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Yeah, you do. That’s just actual fascism tho
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Mar 4, 2018 23:22
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Equal rights are important, which is why a totalitarian fascist police state that runs literal death camps > a government of majoritarian rule that might not have equality for religious minorities.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:25
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lollontee posted:Are you for real? You’re suggesting that reign of terror that Al sisi has unleashed on the egyptian people, the thousands shot in the streets, snetenced to death in kangaroo courts, the open and widespread use of torture and disappearance (murder) of anyone who criticises the regime, is preferable to Morsi’s flailing attempts to wring power away from these people? I'm not going to engage in counterfactuals because neither of us knows how Morsi's rule would've played out. If I had to throw wild guesses out (which I really don't want to do) he would've persecuted the Copts and installed himself as dictator for life after his democratic term ended. At that point, he would've dealt with protesters the same way every other Egyptian authoritarian has (that is, disappearances, torture, massacres). I'm not sure why you characterize Morsi's constitutional fuckery to be a 'flailing attempt.' It makes the Muslim Brotherhood sound incompetent. If we accept your characterization (which, to be clear, I don't), would it be a good idea to have an incompetent government leading a pivotal Arab nation? Especially one that borders Israel? One that has a huge problem with terrorism in the Sinai?
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Mar 4, 2018 23:25
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Call it what you want, it's the same arguments bandied about to justify support for Israel against Hamas, and the Saudi royal family against the wahhabist clerical establishment. Sisi is a US ally. They backed him and refused to call it a coup. Anyone supportive of that despite the resulting humanitarian disaster is marching in lock step with the American foreign policy establishment far more than I am.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:28
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svenkatesh posted:I'm not going to engage in counterfactuals Jesus loving christ, so you’re incredibly retarded in addition to being a fascist. So I suppose i really do need to say this: no, the things that morsi did not do, are not an acceptable excuse to shoot thousands of people and establishing a reign of terror you stupid fascist gently caress. Get the gently caress out
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Mar 4, 2018 23:31
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We must impose mass-murdering fascist police states on the savage Arab, lest they govern their own societies in an illiberal manner.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:31
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svenkatesh posted:If we accept your characterization (which, to be clear, I don't), would it be a good idea to have an incompetent government leading a pivotal Arab nation? Especially one that borders Israel? One that has a huge problem with terrorism in the Sinai? quote:There’s no denying that violence surged following the coup. According to the Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy, the month of the coup, July 2013, saw a massive uptick in violence, from 13 attacks the month before to 95 attacks. The number of attacks dipped in subsequent months — to 69 in August and 56 in September — but remained significantly higher than before the coup. The pre- and post-coup discrepancy becomes even more obvious when we zoom out further: From July 2013 to May 2015, there were a total of 1,223 attacks over 23 months, an average of 53.2 attacks per month. In the 23 months prior to June 2013, there were a mere 78 attacks, an average of 3.4 attacks per month. http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/06/sisi-is-the-best-gift-the-islamic-state-ever-got/ Dictatorship Cures Terrorism
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Mar 4, 2018 23:34
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Radio Prune posted:Equal rights are important, which is why a totalitarian fascist police state that runs literal death camps > a government of majoritarian rule that might not have equality for religious minorities. Good job white-washing what religious/ethnostates do to minorities. Volkerball posted:Call it what you want, it's the same arguments bandied about to justify support for Israel against Hamas, and the Saudi royal family against the wahhabist clerical establishment. Sisi is a US ally. They backed him and refused to call it a coup. Anyone supportive of that despite the resulting humanitarian disaster is marching in lock step with the American foreign policy establishment far more than I am. Saudis and wealthy Arabs are the reason that Wahabbism continues to spread. I'm not going to expand on this because this email address things much better than I can. Anyway, I'm not sure I get the point. Do we need to be against the 'American foreign policy establishment,' as a matter of principle? That just seems obstructionist.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:34
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Also, I'm not a fascist. Democracy works when a society's ideals and culture embrace liberalism (in the classical sense) and freedom. Unfortunately, for much of the third world, that is not the case.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:36
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Fascist and racist.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:41
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svenkatesh posted:Good job white-washing what religious/ethnostates do to minorities. Which is why I (an intellectual) support an Arab Fascist dictatorship propped up by a foreign Islamic theocracy and tens of thousands of foreign sectarian Jihadists.
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Mar 4, 2018 23:41
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100 years ago, Enver Pasha made Rajo his final headquarters as the ottoman empire crumbled from an assualt on all sides. Today, Ceddin Deddin and the Mehter again sound below the scarlet banner. https://twitter.com/Derinkuvvet/status/970351833888772097?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fsyriancivilwar%2F
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Mar 4, 2018 23:43
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Radio Prune posted:Which is why I (an intellectual) support an Arab Fascist dictatorship propped up by a foreign Islamic theocracy and tens of thousands of foreign sectarian Jihadists. I thought you were on the side that opposes Assad. Why are you trash talking them now?
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Mar 4, 2018 23:44
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svenkatesh posted:Is this a serious question? The answer is yes. What's the point of having democracy if the elected government's first step is going to be constitutional reforms that lead to absolute power (ala Egypt, after Morsi was elected), which inevitably is followed by persecuting minorities? i want to remind people that a bunch of people sarcastically dismissed me when i talked about there being people saying this exact kind of thing vindication is sweet
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Mar 5, 2018 02:20
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svenkatesh posted:Good job white-washing what religious/ethnostates do to minorities. what are your thought vis a vis israel?
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Mar 5, 2018 02:22
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Does anyone have an english language news site that gives real info about the afrin province?
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Mar 5, 2018 03:20
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:what are your thought vis a vis israel? 2 state theory is stupid. It's been catastrophic for the Indian subcontinent and Sudan/South Sudan (amongst others) and the fact that we keep pursuing it for Israel/Palestine is ridiculous. Lebanon isn't perfect, but they handle their demographic distribution well compared to Israel/Palestine. Volkerball posted:Fascist and racist. You can't possibly have made that comment in good-faith. It's like accusing me of being racist for saying that American hygiene is bad because American culture says wiping your rear end with a dry piece of TP is 'clean.' The fact of the matter is that whether it's the Gulf, Africa, or Central Asia, society has historically been structured differently from the west, so forcing full democracy on them and expecting it to work out well is naive. svenkatesh fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 04:21
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HorrificExistence posted:100 years ago, Enver Pasha made Rajo his final headquarters as the ottoman empire crumbled from an assualt on all sides. I gotta say I laughed when that guys tough talk was immediately followed by the lamest and dingiest anthem instrumentation ever. Also, It's cool that people here are ready to decide that democracy is bad because it will have a very rocky and bad start until the social contract is solidified which is a long and arduous process. Going by your standards the united states shouldve been deleted and the british shouldve never gotten a parliament because they treated large segments of their citizens like poo poo for hundreds of years. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 04:32
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Al-Saqr posted:Also, It's cool that people here are ready to decide that democracy is bad because it will have a very rocky and bad start until the social contract is solidified which is a long and arduous process. Going by your standards the united states shouldve been deleted and the british shouldve never gotten a parliament because they treated large segments of their citizens like poo poo for hundreds of years. Agreed -- the European, and later American, genocide of the natives is not cool. Too bad I wasn't alive then, and SomethingAwful didn't exist back then either. Re: the British. It took 2 centuries between the time that the English Parliament was formed and the passage of the Magna Carta. The Magna Carta was demanded by the people. The only thing the citizenry in Syria and Egypt demand is an Islamist government that would persecute religious and ethnic minorities.
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Mar 5, 2018 04:46
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Isn't it good that we have alternative viewpoints here in the echo chamber? There's so much of value to discuss here in this guys opions that all muslims are terrorists and need a stromg liberal hand to guide them towards civilization. Yeah, that's the ticket
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Mar 5, 2018 04:54
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svenkatesh posted:Is this a serious question? The answer is yes. What's the point of having democracy if the elected government's first step is going to be constitutional reforms that lead to absolute power (ala Egypt, after Morsi was elected), which inevitably is followed by persecuting minorities? Erdogan has been a lot better for Turkey than Assad has been for Syria
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Mar 5, 2018 05:13
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OctaMurk posted:Erdogan has been a lot better for Turkey than Assad has been for Syria Does one of them HAVE to be better? It's not like Erdogan would be all peace and flowers if Turkey were to descend into open civil war.
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Mar 5, 2018 05:18
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lollontee posted:Isn't it good that we have alternative viewpoints here in the echo chamber? There's so much of value to discuss here in this guys opions that all muslims are terrorists and need a stromg liberal hand to guide them towards civilization. Yeah, that's the ticket Or at least a strong national socialist hand!
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Mar 5, 2018 05:22
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svenkatesh posted:Also, I'm not a fascist. Democracy works when a society's ideals and culture embrace liberalism (in the classical sense) and freedom. You've made a lot of arguable points, but this statement is just ignorant. Freedom is a prime virtue in many Arab nations, in a way that's very analogous to the popular conception in the United States. I don't think you know anything about what Arab culture is like. svenkatesh posted:I'm not going to engage in counterfactuals because neither of us knows how Morsi's rule would've played out. If I had to throw wild guesses out (which I really don't want to do) he would've persecuted the Copts and installed himself as dictator for life after his democratic term ended. At that point, he would've dealt with protesters the same way every other Egyptian authoritarian has (that is, disappearances, torture, massacres). So much for not engaging in counterfactuals lol. Why is that we shouldn't engage in in counterfactuals? Because of course we can never know how things could have been. Morsi's term could have ended in many ways, with many potential outcomes. Honestly I find it kinda hard to imagine Morsi declaring himself president for life when Cairo's chief of police was encouraging mobs to burn down Muslim Brotherhood offices weeks before the coup and literally every organ of the state was determined to take him down. Yeah seems kinda hard to pull off. However there's one path history did take, and you have chosen to defend. It's the one we know did end with thousands of dead in the streets and thousands more brutalized in dank prisons, while security has deteriorated for all minorities. A grim path which will inevitably produce new spasms of violence again in the future, as the state has been stripped of any other avenues for change. That is the path you are defending, all while handwaving away the chance that anything else might have been.
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Mar 5, 2018 05:46
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svenkatesh posted:Agreed -- the European, and later American, genocide of the natives is not cool. Too bad I wasn't alive then, and SomethingAwful didn't exist back then either. Dude, your posts are completely incoherent and self-contradicting and I think you should probably just stop posting for a while and actually think about some of the things you've been saying. For starters, maybe ask yourself why you consider yourself to be an authority on the political ideals and aspirations of millions of people you've never met and how that might relate to everyone else itt calling you a fascist.
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Mar 5, 2018 05:52
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His posts are perfectly coherent: he loves Assad. No bones about it.
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Mar 5, 2018 05:53
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svenkatesh posted:The fact of the matter is that whether it's the Gulf, Africa, or Central Asia, society has historically been structured differently from the west, so forcing full democracy on them and expecting it to work out well is naive. Because as we all know, "the West" marched easily and quickly into democracy, with very little violence and no real authoritarian bumps along the way. "The West" also had a long previous history of natural proto-democracy, in the extremely democratic and liberal  Feudalism system.
Grape fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 06:01
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thatfatkid posted:Does one of them HAVE to be better? It's not like Erdogan would be all peace and flowers if Turkey were to descend into open civil war. Turkey already descended into open war in the southeast, and the Turkish military crushed most of the PKK's combat forces without using chemical weapons or specifically targeting civilians. Yes, Erdogan has severely rolled back civil liberties in Turkey, but to put him on the same level as Assad would be asinine. You can argue what Erdogan would or wouldn't do, maybe, I guess? But we know for a fact what Assad has done, and it's a hell of a lot worse than anything Erdogan ever did.
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Mar 5, 2018 06:35
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Quick Siderail... Given that posters in D&D tend to avoid GBS you might not be aware that Lowtax is in a bit of trouble medically. Most people here would agree that threads like this are a great source of largely unbiased information and wouldn't exist on a forum like reddit and by extension wouldn't exist without Lowtax. Please check out this thread and if you've ever felt like buying an upgrade, changing your username or buying a cert for someone, now's a time it would be appreciated by dear leader. You can also click on the Donations link at the top of most any page. That is all... as you were. [/siderail] (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 5, 2018 07:16
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Good: People who agree with me and who organized around those principals I believe in Bad: People who disagree with me and who organize around those principals I dislike. They deserve death and grinding poverty! Uh no I'm absolutely not a fascist, what makes you ask such a stupid question?
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Mar 5, 2018 07:58
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Good: People who agree with me and who organized around those principals I believe in Does it count if you're trying to disenfranchise fascists though? Like, obviously liberal values break down when you have a large mass of people that don't want to follow them. You either break some liberal principles in order to preserve others, or you let fascists destroy them all.
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Mar 5, 2018 08:45
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Nazis don’t count, no. I’m fine with abusing their rights.
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Mar 5, 2018 09:15
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No guys you see when the Egyptian torturers are hanging political dissidents upside down and ripping out their fingernails, they're doing so in a non-denominational manner. It's SECULAR torture. I'm sure Egyptians will be so relieved to hear that the guys electrocuting their testicles are doing so in the name of progress and liberty.
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Mar 5, 2018 10:23
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svenkatesh posted:You can't possibly have made that comment in good-faith. It's like accusing me of being racist for saying that American hygiene is bad because American culture says wiping your rear end with a dry piece of TP is 'clean.' Can you name 5 Syrian Sunni Arabs without googling? I'm betting no. That's why. You are uninformed and are using prejudiced generalizations to fill in the gaps. Why don't you go read what Syrians were protesting about during the Arab Spring before you handwave them away as savages who don't believe in freedom or human rights.
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Mar 5, 2018 10:47
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https://twitter.com/leloveluck/status/970580372588294145?s=19
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Mar 5, 2018 10:58
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Sergg posted:No guys you see when the Egyptian torturers are hanging political dissidents upside down and ripping out their fingernails, they're doing so in a non-denominational manner. It's SECULAR torture. I'm sure Egyptians will be so relieved to hear that the guys electrocuting their testicles are doing so in the name of progress and liberty. They're so secular that they're outlawing atheism. Definitely better than what an Islamic theocracy would do!
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Mar 5, 2018 11:16
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The idea that the socialism would have had any place in a rebel-controlled Syria is belied by the fact that they act as Ottoman auxiliaries against the only socialist force in the country.
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Mar 5, 2018 12:40
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Good thread. https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/970410735162535937?s=19
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Mar 5, 2018 13:14
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