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really wish i had been recruited to a party that prints out internet posts instead of one that does labor organizing
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Mar 5, 2018 12:22
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:not to be rude but how do you get 2200 years when we live in the year of our lord 2018 smdh you didn't read romance of the three kingdoms
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Mar 5, 2018 12:27
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:not to be rude but how do you get 2200 years when we live in the year of our lord 2018 I don't think that's how it works check ur calendar
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Mar 5, 2018 13:27
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apropos to nothing posted:really wish i had been recruited to a party that prints out internet posts instead of one that does labor organizing any kind of labor organizing that doesn't involve printing posts seems ineffective
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Mar 5, 2018 13:30
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*throws Peterson vs Zizek fight posters away*
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Mar 5, 2018 14:48
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zizek broke up yugoslavia? good. bunch of revisinionists
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Mar 5, 2018 15:17
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I had some vague questions about "wrecker" type behavior before and I think it might make sense to give a vague update. Some of the lessons that we are learning are: the importance of having a process to resolve disputes between members, including bringing "charges" against a member you feel has violated the core principles of an organization (to adjudicate it one way or the other and let folks move on, to issue discipline, etc) have crucial conversations in person, or at least by phone - not over email or god forbid social media there should be a clear sense of roles and responsibilities organizations should have rules of conduct and the chair is responsible for enforcing them. everyone else is responsible for supporting the chair in enforcing those rules (ie when people are being disruptive) there is no room for silence when a meeting is unravelling and the chair is being disrespected it's important to distinguish between things that are unintentionally racist, sexist, etc (those need to be called out), and behavior that is merely obnoxious or annoying - failing to distinguish between the two can trivialize criticisms alleging racism or sexism
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Mar 5, 2018 18:12
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So, I've never read "Settlers", but I am reading "The Wages of Whiteness" right now, and it seems relevant to this conversation. This is the first work I've read that qualifies as a Marxist labor history, and it also started the field of "whiteness studies" when, as my professor put it, whiteness studies was still good. I'd have to read "Settlers" to get an idea of what the book is trying to say, but. "The Wages of Whiteness", as far as I understand it right now, says that the white working class developed as a form of capitalist discipline, allowing working class white people the social and political "wage" that is white privilege today, in exchange for tolerance of economic disenfranchisement of the whole working class. The point, I think, is that in the United States, any class struggle is inseparable from racial struggle, while many Marxists attempt to stress that race issues are secondary to class issues. Has anyone else read this book? Come to a different conclusion? I offer this post as an attempt to contribute to the conversation, lurker though I may normally be.
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Mar 5, 2018 18:53
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apropos to nothing posted:really wish i had been recruited to a party that prints out internet posts instead of one that does labor organizing 
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Mar 5, 2018 18:55
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:that would be leftypol He's right
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Mar 5, 2018 18:58
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R. Guyovich posted:zizek himself read that lol, delivering posts through direct action owns printing out millions of the "who is john galt" speech to plaster over nazi posters as we speak
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Mar 5, 2018 19:07
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i'm still lolling at "printing out rhizzone posts"
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Mar 5, 2018 19:10
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Karl Barks posted:i'm still lolling at "printing out rhizzone posts" There are worse places to print posts out from. Like gbs
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Mar 5, 2018 19:31
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do NOT jack off posted:So, I've never read "Settlers", but I am reading "The Wages of Whiteness" right now, and it seems relevant to this conversation. This is the first work I've read that qualifies as a Marxist labor history, and it also started the field of "whiteness studies" when, as my professor put it, whiteness studies was still good. I'd have to read "Settlers" to get an idea of what the book is trying to say, but. ive read part of it and much like settlers i discard it entirely because racial hierarchy is a tool of capital, not the other way around.
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Mar 5, 2018 19:34
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Along with Fanon, I'd really recommend Racecraft by Karen and Barbara Fields as an antidote to these kind of views. Probably the best analysis of race in American society published in a long time, and thoroughly anti-essentialist. Also on Sakai, this article has been getting rediscovered and it's quite good. On Nazi interest in green ideology and some prominent flaws in the bourgeois ecological mindset. https://revolutionaryecology.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/j-sakai-the-green-nazi-an-investigation-into-fascist-ideology/
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Mar 5, 2018 20:01
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you can't just discard racial theory like Settlers even if it's bad (i haven't read it, i don't know if it's bad but the criticisms in thread paint a familiar picture assuming they accurately represent the work) because ultimately even if class consciousness and emancipation is the single most important factor in pursuing revolutionary action and justice, there's a whole lot of potential allies who've personally dealt with racism to the point that it's a defining aspect of their ideology, and understandably so theory, even when it's correct, still needs to compromise when faced with pragmatic concerns if you actually want to get poo poo done
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Mar 5, 2018 20:40
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Larry Parrish posted:ive read part of it and much like settlers i discard it entirely because racial hierarchy is a tool of capital, not the other way around. that racial hierarchy is a tool of capital is a core component of the thesis of settlers
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Mar 5, 2018 21:06
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In terms of practical organizing, though, Sakai's Settlers is sometimes used in ways similar to the afro-pessimism of Coates. It's an excuse usually used by middle-class radlibs to basically stall any organizing and engage in performative self-aggrandizement. There's good points to be made from Settlers, and afro-pessimism is actually quite relatable, but I also recommend Racecraft and reading Fanon (I also recommend Wretched of the Earth), Noel Ignatiev, Ted Allen, Du Bois etc. It's ultimately incoherent and self-defeating to essentialize and treat individuals and groups as static entities. I also like to build a worldview out of a coherent framework with predictive power and the possibility of solutions. I've also learned that it doesn't even really matter what someone actually wrote. What actually matters is what people read about what people wrote about. Then, in the absence of a well-defined, coherent argument, just fill in the gaps with what makes you feel/look good. (there's that pessimism)
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Mar 5, 2018 21:07
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Wheeee posted:you can't just discard racial theory like Settlers even if it's bad (i haven't read it, i don't know if it's bad but the criticisms in thread paint a familiar picture assuming they accurately represent the work) because ultimately even if class consciousness and emancipation is the single most important factor in pursuing revolutionary action and justice, there's a whole lot of potential allies who've personally dealt with racism to the point that it's a defining aspect of their ideology, and understandably so its been a part of my life too. i dont think its worthwhile fighting the results of the system instead of the system itself. we will literally never solve racism or sexism or discrimination in general until we first eradicate the atomization and alienation from others bred by capitalism from our earliest moments
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Mar 5, 2018 21:08
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Thug Lessons posted:Along with Fanon, I'd really recommend Racecraft by Karen and Barbara Fields as an antidote to these kind of views. Probably the best analysis of race in American society published in a long time, and thoroughly anti-essentialist. didn't know he had written anything else, thanks for sharing
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Mar 5, 2018 22:02
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Larry Parrish posted:its been a part of my life too. i dont think its worthwhile fighting the results of the system instead of the system itself. we will literally never solve racism or sexism or discrimination in general until we first eradicate the atomization and alienation from others bred by capitalism from our earliest moments this is all good and true and it doesn't matter to a lot of people who either don't get it or have been so personally affected by racism that they emotionally can't just set their fight for racial equality beside or behind the fight for economic justice you have to seriously engage on those points even if it feels like a waste of time because we're all irrational animals and ain't nobody's gonna sign up to fight your fight (even if it's also their fight and they don't realize it) unless you a show a willingness to fight for theirs as well
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Mar 6, 2018 00:30
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Wheeee posted:this is all good and true and it doesn't matter to a lot of people who either don't get it or have been so personally affected by racism that they emotionally can't just set their fight for racial equality beside or behind the fight for economic justice Then it's not an issue you can hold people responsible for caring about either. If we want people who aren't personally affected by racism to become a part of our movement, we do have to offer them something besides the promise that people they've no reason to care about will get a slightly bigger slice of the pie, the one rapidly diminishing for everyone. Humans care primarily about the people around them, only secondarily about others, and holding that fact against them isn't going get us a broad popular front to challenge the people loving us all in the arse. I think we need a technological part for the solution to work. If our ability to form real social communities of the kind the Unions were at the start of the century, is now destroyed by the reality of changes wrought by capitalism on our societies for the past century, atomization and alienation on a level Marx couldn't even dream of, we're not going to heal that damage without technological adaption. Part of this adaptation has been as mundane and dumb as the some bullshit on twitter and soundcloud podcasts and all that crap, but it's not going to be enough. We're looking forward to a century of ever accelerating breakdown of old forms of social organization as before, and chapo trap house isn't going to cut it as a remedy. By the destruction of the physical workplaces where labour organization of the past century used to occur we are thus ever more cut off from each other by accelerating capitalism.
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Mar 6, 2018 01:16
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Yeah, Yossarian's posts are pretty bad. main monitor turn on its u
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Mar 6, 2018 01:29
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to lonontee's point about alienation, it's still important to consider the fact that trucking, dockworking, shipping, transportation, and other sectors which are still super critical to the functioning of our economy still exist in large number. as to their tendencies toward automation, it would behoove us to remember marx's labor theory of value: all surplus value ultimately derives from human labor. as long as capitalists need the working class to make a profit, and as long as key economic sectors rely at least substantially enough on human labor that workers can grind the economy to a halt, it's unlikely that we'll reach the post-apocalyptic hellhole of complete human redundancy and impossibility of class warfare any time soon. yes, we'll be increasingly redundant at possibly an unprecedented rate over the coming years, but overthinking the possible terminus of that trend--which may or may not come--can only retard working class struggle. to the extent that such a trend has accelerated, it can be a rallying point. ned ludd was a cool guy who didn't "hate progress" but rather the deskilling of labor. we need to follow his example and make being a luddite cool again. better yet, make capitalist machines of the capitalist an outlet for xenophobic hatred instead of immigrants, and universalize the working class struggle. the whole bit about fully automated meme poo poo can come later "post-industrial economy" my rear end. we can't succumb to the postmodern condition ffs, especially when we're on borrowed time here Yossarian-22 fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 01:48
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i accidentally triple posted, so in lieu of west virginia i'm gonna recommend matewan b/c its a hecking great film
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Mar 6, 2018 02:10
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lollontee posted:Then it's not an issue you can hold people responsible for caring about either. If we want people who aren't personally affected by racism to become a part of our movement, we do have to offer them something besides the promise that people they've no reason to care about will get a slightly bigger slice of the pie, the one rapidly diminishing for everyone. Humans care primarily about the people around them, only secondarily about others, and holding that fact against them isn't going get us a broad popular front to challenge the people loving us all in the arse. yes until the modern Left actually moves away from idealistic Liberal framing and gets loving real with itself about this it will continue to flounder
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Mar 6, 2018 03:14
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Wheeee posted:this is all good and true and it doesn't matter to a lot of people who either don't get it or have been so personally affected by racism that they emotionally can't just set their fight for racial equality beside or behind the fight for economic justice What im saying is basically every form of organizing seems to be pointless and maybe we should just start burying cases of 5.56mm in back yards
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Mar 6, 2018 05:06
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Larry Parrish posted:What im saying is basically every form of organizing seems to be pointless and maybe we should just start burying cases of 5.56mm in back yards 5.56mm is counter-revolutionary, use 7.62mm instead
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Mar 6, 2018 05:55
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AnEdgelord posted:5.56mm is counter-revolutionary, use 7.62mm instead 5.45×39mm
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Mar 6, 2018 06:16
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AnEdgelord posted:5.56mm is counter-revolutionary, use 7.62mm instead Oh, good point. Those shady Chinese SKS variants probably have the muzzle velocity to punch through body armor anyway
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Mar 6, 2018 06:43
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I had some vague questions about "wrecker" type behavior before and I think it might make sense to give a vague update. Centralist scum. This is what happens when loving Trots seize power.
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Mar 8, 2018 07:20
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centralism is good
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Mar 8, 2018 17:48
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people who get really really really mad about centralism often can't organize a pizza party without coming to blows over it. a kneejerk commitment to absolute horizontalism ignores and thus entrenches invisible power dynamics. as literally anyone who has worked with other people irl before can point out
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Mar 8, 2018 18:01
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Love these constant accusations that the left doesn't take racism seriously as though we haven't been talking about it to the exclusion of all else for decades now. Sorry, there's no "right racial politics" that is going to reach out and draw the black working class into socialist politics. If you don't believe me go start your own turbo-woke org, (as many have done), and see how many people are really interested in eating out of that trashcan.
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Mar 8, 2018 18:36
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Captain Queernabs posted:people who get really really really mad about centralism often can't organize a pizza party without coming to blows over it. a kneejerk commitment to absolute horizontalism ignores and thus entrenches invisible power dynamics. as literally anyone who has worked with other people irl before can point out this. I also think it comes from a place of people wanting to join movements but who are unwilling to learn or change their minds about things. they basically want to be part of a big tent party or org where they are free to continue doing or thinking whatever they want, regardless of how effective or meaningful any of what theyre doing is. its cause I think a lot of people on the left use their ideology as an identity to latch on to rather than as a means towards achieving social change and so if theyre not allowed to think and do whatever they want but might have to actually change themselves some, then it negates a big part of why they are trying to get involved
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Mar 8, 2018 19:27
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Thug Lessons posted:Love these constant accusations that the left doesn't take racism seriously as though we haven't been talking about it to the exclusion of all else for decades now. Sorry, there's no "right racial politics" that is going to reach out and draw the black working class into socialist politics. If you don't believe me go start your own turbo-woke org, (as many have done), and see how many people are really interested in eating out of that trashcan.
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Mar 8, 2018 19:32
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Thug Lessons posted:Love these constant accusations that the left doesn't take racism seriously as though we haven't been talking about it to the exclusion of all else for decades now. Sorry, there's no "right racial politics" that is going to reach out and draw the black working class into socialist politics. If you don't believe me go start your own turbo-woke org, (as many have done), and see how many people are really interested in eating out of that trashcan. So did someone not like your sweet Huey Long memes, or what
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Mar 8, 2018 19:35
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Do people make Huey Long memes outside the Kaiserreich community
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Mar 8, 2018 21:38
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Waiting on gradenko to clarify.
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Mar 8, 2018 21:51
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So is Jason Unruhe destroyed Sargon in a debate right now or something. I'm now watching but I'm a horrible nerd
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Mar 8, 2018 22:31
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