War in the Pacific Day by Day - Imperial Edition

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V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

They've found the Lexington.

quote:

We've located the USS Lexington after she sank 76 yrs ago. #RVPetrel found the WWII aircraft carrier & planes more than 3000m (~2mi) below Coral Sea near Australia. We remember her brave crew who helped secure 1st strategic US win in the Pacific Theater vlcn.fyi/Vcee30iLuOo

# ? Mar 6, 2018 00:35

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:37

Generation Internet: Jan 18, 2009; Where angels and generals fear to tread.

V for Vegas posted:

They've found the Lexington.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 00:54

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Pretty good condition really.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 01:10

3 DONG HORSE: May 22, 2008; I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

Looks as good as one of the fresh planes Grey's AI opponent delivered to Cthulhu

# ? Mar 6, 2018 01:14

Proust Malone: Apr 4, 2008

The Felix the cat logo is cool as hell.

Also four kills

# ? Mar 6, 2018 01:17

Jesenjin: Nov 12, 2011

Considering where it is, this is close to mint condition.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 01:28

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Against All Tyrants; Ultra Carp

Jesenjin posted:

Considering where it is, this is close to mint condition.

There's a TBD in the video that's probably in better condition than any other Devestator on the planet earth.

This is an incredible find.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 01:54

Woodchip: Mar 28, 2010

amazingly wrong thread.

That's a great find. Wonder what the ship itself looks like.

Woodchip fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 6, 2018

# ? Mar 6, 2018 01:57

sparkmaster: Apr 1, 2010

Amazing how the paint on the kill flags are still so vibrant. It's like they were painted yesterday.

Also, looks like the pilot managed to get out :unsmith:

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:11

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

sparkmaster posted:

Amazing how the paint on the kill flags are still so vibrant. It's like they were painted yesterday.

Also, looks like the pilot managed to get out

Ship was scuttled so I hope so, I assume they fell off deck right? Or am I completely wrong.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:17

Lakedaimon: Jan 11, 2007

The markings still look so good that I wouldnt be surprised if a survivor could identify who flew that specific plane. Shame they didnt have images like this 30 or 40 years ago for more of the veterans to see.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:17

hailthefish: Oct 24, 2010

algebra testes posted:

Ship was scuttled so I hope so, I assume they fell off deck right? Or am I completely wrong.

Presumably fell or pushed off the flight deck, yeah. It wouldn't look nearly that nice if it had been ditched into the ocean from flight, I don't think.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:22

BUG JUG: Feb 17, 2005

Lakedaimon posted:

The markings still look so good that I wouldnt be surprised if a survivor could identify who flew that specific plane. Shame they didnt have images like this 30 or 40 years ago for more of the veterans to see.

easy enough to figure out, someone load up Coral Sea in WITP and see who has 4 kills in VF-3.

edit: thought Lex was VF-2 but that would make too much sense, it's VF-3.

BUG JUG fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Mar 6, 2018

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:26

habeasdorkus: Nov 3, 2013; Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

That's stunning. Given that they're 2 miles down, what are the odds of recovering anything? Or since it was scuttled after battle is it considered a burial site and thus going to be left entirely alone?

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:32

habeasdorkus: Nov 3, 2013; Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

BUG JUG posted:

easy enough to figure out, someone load up Coral Sea in WITP and see who has 4 kills in VF-2.

Honestly, given grog games that could actually work.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:33

BUG JUG: Feb 17, 2005

here they all are:

The pilots of the U.S. Navy Fighting Squadron 3 (VF-3) in front of a Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat fighter, 5 March 1942.
Standing (l-r): Newton H. Mason, Howard F. Clark, Edward R. Sellstrom, Willard E. Eder, Howard L. Johnson, John H. Lackey, Leon W. Haynes, Onia B. Stanley, Jr., Dale W. Peterson, Marion W. Dufilh, Rolla S. Lemmon.

Sitting (l-r): Robert J. Morgan, Albert O. Vorse, Jr., Donald A. Lovelace, John S. "Jimmy" Thach, Noel A.M. Gayler, Edward H. "Butch" O'Hare, Richard M. Rowell.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:40

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Against All Tyrants; Ultra Carp

No way they recover anything. It's possible to recover stuff from that deep (one group actually pulled up a big section of the Titanic's hull a while back, and of course there's Project Azorian), but legally the Lexington is still the property of the US Navy and is considered a war grave.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:42

Bold Robot: Jan 6, 2009; Be brave.

sparkmaster posted:

Amazing how the paint on the kill flags are still so vibrant. It's like they were painted yesterday.

Also, looks like the pilot managed to get out

Even if not, a respectable k:d.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:43

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Lakedaimon posted:

The markings still look so good that I wouldnt be surprised if a survivor could identify who flew that specific plane.

As I understand it, navy pilots didn't have their own plane, they flew whichever was up in the rotation (anything else would require too much deck shuffling). So those are probably the combined kills attributed to that plane rather than any one pilot.

Someone could still probably identify and dig up combat mission specifics for that airframe, if the log books weren't also presumably in the same location.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 02:49

lizurcainnon: May 5, 2008

F-5 would nominally be Onia Burt Stanley's, however it was 'sold' to VF-42 on the Yorktown on March 14th. However, it didn't make the transfer, as it lost power shortly after takeoff and pilot Walt Haas ditched it a mile out from the Lexington.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 03:13

Triggerhappypilot: Nov 8, 2009; SVMS-01 UNION FLAG GREATEST MOBILE SUIT

ENACT = CHEAP EUROTRASH COPY

I'm really hyped about the discovery for several reasons, but one of them is that it's finally settled the age-old modeler's question of "what was the cockpit color of the F4F-3."

It's green.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 03:45

Lakedaimon: Jan 11, 2007

goatface posted:

As I understand it, navy pilots didn't have their own plane, they flew whichever was up in the rotation (anything else would require too much deck shuffling). So those are probably the combined kills attributed to that plane rather than any one pilot.

Someone could still probably identify and dig up combat mission specifics for that airframe, if the log books weren't also presumably in the same location.

If that plane was lost in March, why was it found near the wreck (from May)? Maybe im reading something wrong

# ? Mar 6, 2018 03:48

BUG JUG: Feb 17, 2005

Lakedaimon posted:

If that plane was lost in March, why was it found near the wreck (from May)? Maybe im reading something wrong

well, actually, that tells us two things: the first is that the conjecture that planes were granted kills as opposed to pilots is likely incorrect. perhaps other people flew F-5 than its normally assigned pilot, but that pilot kept his kills on his plane (or else this new F-5 would likely have fewer kills). secondly it tells us that while the original F-5 was 'sold' to the Yorktown and ditched, that the replacement plane that came in got the same markings as the original F-5, thus adding weight to my argument that it was probably a specific pilot's plane.

anyone happen to know how many kills Stanley had at the start of Coral Sea? (I am assuming that ground crew did not have time to add additional kills to the plane during the battle)

# ? Mar 6, 2018 04:21

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Against All Tyrants; Ultra Carp

Kills aren't and have never been assigned to planes, they're assigned to pilots. Pilots are assigned planes, which is why they get to name them and write their names on the side-however, just because a pilot is assigned a plane doesn't mean he's going to be the one who always flies it, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 05:02

lizurcainnon: May 5, 2008

Stanley had only flown his nominally assigned plane twice before. Also, US Navy squadrons 'sold' planes, and pilots, to other squadrons to fill them out pretty often early on in the war. After the Saratoga was torpedoed earlier in the year, VF-2 on Lexington was sold planes and pilots from VF-3, so they may still have kept the Felix the Cat while other markings were repainted. VF-2's plane F-5 was nominally assigned to Scoop Vorse.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 05:31

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

We start by losing a submarine. Who was stupid enough to make a surface attack.

These Spitfires are murdering us!

I think we're losing the air war here.

We do kill a Liberator though.

My lazy rear end carriers didn't send up a single sortie! So many targets unsunk! We also took very high air losses.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 06:06

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

lizurcainnon posted:

Stanley had only flown his nominally assigned plane twice before. Also, US Navy squadrons 'sold' planes, and pilots, to other squadrons to fill them out pretty often early on in the war. After the Saratoga was torpedoed earlier in the year, VF-2 on Lexington was sold planes and pilots from VF-3, so they may still have kept the Felix the Cat while other markings were repainted. VF-2's plane F-5 was nominally assigned to Scoop Vorse.

Where are you getting this information?

# ? Mar 6, 2018 09:03

V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

PittTheElder posted:

Where are you getting this information?

I'm guessing its from The First Team, Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway

quote:

The aircraft nominally assigned each pilot on the basis of the squadron flight organization is shown, but a pilot rarely flew the assigned airplane, instead manning whatever fighter the flight leader and squadron duty officer assigned after learning from Air Plot the side number and deck position of the planes scheduled for the upcoming launch. Thus during the whole cruise Burt Stanley flew his nominally assigned aircraft (F-5, BuNo. 4009) only twice. 7 On 19 February (and also the next day), there were not sufficient aircraft for all of the pilots, as only sixteen of VF-3�s eighteen Grummans were flyable.

It has a moving account of the end of the Lexington.

quote:

After the Lexington had recovered the last of her strike group, her aviators congregated on deck, hoping that damage control and repair would progress sufficiently for them to resume flight operations. The plane handlers had shifted all of the aircraft aft, and optimistically spotted the eight F4F fighters for takeoff. No one was more eager to go than VF-42�s orphan McCuskey, whose faithful F-2 was spotted number one. He along with some VF-2 pilots hoped for the word to man planes.

At 1442, however, a second major explosion wracked the massive flattop. Its blast lifted the forward elevator a foot or more above the flight deck and sent smoke and steam gushing from the ship. An intense fire erupted inside the already smoke-filled hangar deck, setting one aircraft ablaze as the flames spread aft. Three minutes after the explosion, Sherman signaled the Yorktown : � Lexington has serious explosion,� followed at 1452 by: �This ship needs help.� 1 Some on board fully agreed with their captain. Topside, McCuskey was amazed to see three sailors run up to his Wildcat and snake out the small liferaft stowed just behind the cockpit. Sherman hoisted the breakdown flag. Soon afterward all power failed in the forward half of the ship. The Lexington was in danger of succumbing to the flames growing in her bow. All her aviators could do was wait on the flight deck and try to be of assistance to the crew.

It soon became obvious that the Lexington required assistance in order to save lives. At 1505, Fletcher sent the destroyers Phelps, Morris , and Anderson to stand by the stricken carrier. At the same time he made ready to reassume tactical control from Fitch. To regroup and prepare for a possible second enemy strike, the air department thought it advisable to rotate the CAP. To add to the uncertainties, the Yorktown �s radar had been cutting out, and she alerted the heavy cruiser Chester to maintain a continuous radar watch. At 1512, the Yorktown turned into the wind to despatch a relief CAP of four VF-42 F4Fs (Fenton�s section �Wildcat Black� and Leonard�s �Wildcat White�) and ten SBDs from both Bombing Five and Scouting Five as anti�torpedo-plane patrol. About fifteen minutes later, she recovered the old CAP (one F4F from VF-42, six from VF-2) and anti�torpedo-plane patrol�eight VS-2 and two VB-2 dive bombers. Checking the bureau numbers of the VF-2 F4Fs, the Yorktown �s air department probably had a laugh. F4F BuNo. 1865 was one of the old VF-42 fighters dealt off on 14 March to VF-3 as �overaged.� It had fought at Coral Sea and returned home. Aloft, the Yorktown immediately put Fenton to work checking out the carrier�s YE homing transmitter which appeared to be malfunctioning. Fenton and his wingman flew about 15 miles out to check the strength of the signal.

The explosion that finally settled the question of the Lexington �s fate occurred at 1525. It blew out plating near the firerooms and damaged the boiler uptakes. Water pressure in the hangar deck fire curtains also failed, releasing a great surge of flame. It became necessary to evacuate the forward machinery spaces, cutting power in more areas, thus severing the only link between the bridge and steering control. Sherman then attempted to steer his giant carrier by her engines only. With sickening speed the inferno swept aft. Damage control managed to flood ammunition and bomb magazines, but all they could do with the torpedo warheads was play hoses on them to keep them cool. At 1538, the ship reported the fire as out of control. Eventually the blaze severed all connections with Main Control, ending all attempts to steer the ship. The Lexington careened wildly through the formation as escort vessel hustled out of her way. By 1600, the flattop slowed and began circling. Sherman ordered the men to leave the lower spaces and come up on the flight deck. Her powerplant secured, the Lexington let off steam and came to a stop. Then she drifted helplessly, broadside to the gentle swells of the Coral Sea.

Concerned over the very real possibility of a second Japanese strike, Fletcher had to reckon with the fact that the Lexington no longer could stay up with the rest of the task force. At 1601, he separated Task Force 17 into two groups. Operating with the Lexington would be Kinkaid�s Task Group 17.2, two heavy cruisers and three destroyers. His mission was to stand by the crippled flattop, rescue her crew, and sink her if need be, or escort her southward if she could be saved. As the Yorktown group moved off to the south, her radar evidently picked up a contact. At 1700, the Yorktown scrambled seven F4F Wildcats from both Fighting Two and Fighting Forty-two. As they clawed skyward, she warned the task force: �Prepare to repel air attack.� The Chester offered to vector fighters, but Pete Pederson declined, noting that his radar was now �fairly reliable.� 2 The alarm proved false, but that did little to reduce tension in Task Force 17.

Meanwhile, the destroyer Morris moved up alongside the Lexington after she hove to, and passed hoses up to the flight deck in a vain effort to fight fires. With rescue ships on hand, Sherman directed that the wounded be evacuated, and at 1652, ordered all squadron and air department personnel to embark on board the Morris . Under the circumstances, most of the aviators did not get the word to leave until Sherman soon after ordered all hands to abandon ship. That unhappy event took place at 1707. By that time, the Lexington �s list to port had increased to 7 degrees, and her fires roared unabated. She was doomed, and Sherman had no assurance that the flames would not set off torpedo warheads in the mezzanine deck over the after part of the hangar deck. Explosions there would threaten the 2,500-odd sailors crowded on deck and also the safety of the surrounding rescue ships.

The Lexington �s crew went over the side in an orderly manner, either hand-after-hand down lines or (for the adventurous) by diving fifty feet into the water. Screening ships sent whaleboats and launches to rescue the men in the water. For the most part, aviation personnel abandoned ship over her port and starboard quarters. Many took with them rubber rafts salvaged from the aircraft on deck.

All the fighter pilots safely reached the escort vessels, but Fighting Two lost one enlisted man either killed in the blast or missing in the water: Virgil L. Weeks, PhM2c, USN.

Evacuation of the crew took the better part of an hour, and they departed just in time. Around 1800, an enormous blast exploded amidships, followed in short order by another, even bigger detonation farther aft. Fire had worked its way aft among the planes parked on deck, setting most ablaze. Now this explosion blew the aft elevator apart and tossed several aircraft into the air. The stern was a mass of flames. In spots the Lexington soon glowed cherry red, as the fire relentlessly consumed the vitals of the ship. Sherman and his department heads bravely remained on board to conduct a final inspection. From the main body, Fletcher despatched the destroyers Phelps and the CAP pilots:

"Fires, explosions large and small, debris blowing over the side made her look like hell afloat. It was a sad sight. "

Called back to the Yorktown for recovery, the ten SBDs and eleven F4Fs found it �plenty dark� by 1818 when the last of them landed on board. Fletcher at 1826 signaled to Kinkaid conducting the rescue that the rest of Task Force 17 would hold a course of 225 degrees at 14 knots (less zigzagging) until 2000, then head for a rendezvous point. There Kinkaid would be able to rejoin after sinking the Lexington with torpedoes. Sherman waited until 1830 on board the inferno his vessel had become. He was certain he left no living crew on board. A whaleboat from the Hammann with Ramsey on board recovered the Lexington �s captain from the water. In the night sky, the Lexington burned brightly, a beacon of flame and towering black smoke visible for many miles. After carefully checking the waters for survivors, the rescue ships cleared off, having brought 2,770 men (92 percent of her complement) to safety. At 1841, the Phelps received orders to sink the Lexington , and between 1915 and 1952, she sent five torpedoes into the flaming mass so persistently still afloat. Finally just after 1952, the Lex rolled over to port and slipped beneath the waves. As she disappeared from view, a tremendous underwater explosion rent the sea. The concussion reverberated as far as 20 miles, where it was felt among the ships of the main body. The Phelps , near the catastrophe, was so shaken, her skipper thought she had been torpedoed.

Kinkaid�s task group rejoined Task Force 17 at 2037, and Fletcher set a southwesterly course. On everyone�s mind that gloomy evening was the loss of the Lexington , one quarter of the total American carrier strength in the Pacific. Not knowing of the carrier�s loss, Admiral Nimitz back at Pearl had drafted a congratulatory message praising Task Force 17�s �glorious accomplishments,� which were the �admiration of the entire Pacific Fleet.� 6 To the weary participants in the Battle of the Coral Sea, the words would sound a little hollow because the gallant old Lex was not there to share in them.

V for Vegas fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Mar 6, 2018

# ? Mar 6, 2018 11:19

McNally: Sep 13, 2007; Ask me about Proposition 305

Do you like muskets?

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Kills aren't and have never been assigned to planes, they're assigned to pilots. Pilots are assigned planes, which is why they get to name them and write their names on the side-however, just because a pilot is assigned a plane doesn't mean he's going to be the one who always flies it, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

Once air to air kills started becoming less common kills have, in fact, been assigned to individual planes. There are USAF F-15s wearing kill markings from the Gulf War and Bosnia even though their pilots have long since moved on to other things.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 19:55

Kodos666: Dec 17, 2013

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Kills aren't and have never been assigned to planes, they're assigned to pilots. Pilots are assigned planes, which is why they get to name them and write their names on the side-however, just because a pilot is assigned a plane doesn't mean he's going to be the one who always flies it, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

at least this one collected kills over multiple pilots:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netz_107

# ? Mar 6, 2018 20:20

Lord Koth: Jan 8, 2012

This was just from a brief check of Wikipedia so take it with a measure of salt, but the Wildcat found is supposedly the one flown by Albert O. Vorse Jr. in the battle. Someone who wants to go looking into pilot and squadron records can probably confirm this if they want.

# ? Mar 6, 2018 21:24

lizurcainnon: May 5, 2008

PittTheElder posted:

Where are you getting this information?

V for Vegas is right, the book The First Team is where I was getting the data. I'd just finished reading it a couple weeks ago, and remembered it had details on who was (nominally) flying which plane in a squadron.

Somewhere in there it also has an example of how pilots got assigned to fly which craft on a particular sortie, with the director (probably remembering that position name wrong) yelling out the pilot's name and a the plane number of one of the warmed-up aircraft on the deck.

# ? Mar 7, 2018 02:10

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

If I recall my Shattered Sword correctly, the flexibility of American doctrine was useful in the sense that it allowed them to replenish depleted carrier air groups simply by shifting assignments around, rather than having to wait for a whole squadron to be rebuilt.

Such an approach would have netted the Japanese an extra carrier at Midway if they did it, since as I recall one of the pair of Shokaku/Zuikaku was damaged at Coral Sea and was undergoing repairs, while the other had a depleted air group. If they had consolidated the squadrons, the undamaged carrier could have joined the Midway task force with a full complement.

# ? Mar 7, 2018 05:01

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

Another day, another wave of landings.

Looking for subs, finding torpedoes.

A dull day, but one I needed after the heavy losses of the last couple of weeks.

# ? Mar 7, 2018 05:48

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

Naruto sucks anyway.

# ? Mar 8, 2018 04:03

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

Those carriers better do something!

The guns at least hit something.

Dammit!

The Spit's pay us a visit again.

As do the Lightnings.

Their subs are being very annoying at the moment.

My Poor, poor planes!

# ? Mar 8, 2018 05:30

Deep Dish Fuckfest: Sep 6, 2006; Advanced
Computer Touching; Toilet Rascal

Yeah what's up with the planes lately? For a while it seemed like it was... well, it wasn't Operation Charnel Cloud is all I'm saying.

# ? Mar 8, 2018 05:39

CannonFodder: Jan 26, 2001; Passion’s Wrench

The Zeroes on the KB were providing extra CAP while sitting in Rabaul, but while the carriers are out ~~burning fuel~~ hunting, the CAP is gone and the Spitfires are eating up the Oscars.

# ? Mar 8, 2018 07:14

Coucho Marx: Mar 2, 2009; kick back and relax

gradenko_2000 posted:

If I recall my Shattered Sword correctly, the flexibility of American doctrine was useful in the sense that it allowed them to replenish depleted carrier air groups simply by shifting assignments around, rather than having to wait for a whole squadron to be rebuilt.

Such an approach would have netted the Japanese an extra carrier at Midway if they did it, since as I recall one of the pair of Shokaku/Zuikaku was damaged at Coral Sea and was undergoing repairs, while the other had a depleted air group. If they had consolidated the squadrons, the undamaged carrier could have joined the Midway task force with a full complement.

Yeah, it was Zuikaku that lost its air group. They were sister ships, too, so it wasn't like Shokaku's airmen would have to retrain on a new carrier or anything. I think Shattered Sword also points out that air crews were shuffled around later in the war, and it worked just fine then, so really they could have gotten away with it at the time.

But that would require outside-the-box, non-doctrinal thinking, which (for Imperial Japanese naval leadership) was essentially tantamount to treason.

# ? Mar 8, 2018 10:29