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Gazpacho posted:bash is documented, php is not php is documented https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
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Mar 7, 2018 18:43
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just use perl like god intended
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Mar 7, 2018 19:05
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bash is, literally, unironically, and heart-felt as a past abuser, the worst language weirdly in current use
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Mar 7, 2018 19:30
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:bash is, literally, unironically, and heart-felt as a past abuser, the worst language weirdly in current use counterpoint: I know a graybeard who still writes csh
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Mar 7, 2018 19:35
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carry on then posted:it's always hilarious when nerds who haven't even looked at java since 2002 try to lay sick burns on it
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Mar 7, 2018 19:49
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:yes. there's a bunch of debuggers for bash
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Mar 7, 2018 19:51
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it's almost as hilarious as nerds trying to tell me that in fact post-98 C++ is actually really good now (the spec is now 4000 pages of additional poo poo piled on top of the original poo poo, but compilation is still single-pass and the stdlib still doesn't know what the gently caress the internet is)
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Mar 7, 2018 19:51
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Sapozhnik posted:the stdlib still doesn't know what the gently caress the internet is a good thing, imo
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Mar 7, 2018 19:58
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Gazpacho posted:if you're not willing to deal with SNOBOL’s syntax in order to get a task done then maybe it's not worth doing in any language?
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Mar 7, 2018 19:58
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Suspicious Dish posted:a good thing, imo yeah, if they’d added IP networking to the C++ stdlib they’d have insisted on anything representing an address reducing to 32 bits at compile time “for performance”
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Mar 7, 2018 20:00
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remember when the C++ guys tried to add a terrible 2D graphics API to C++, and it was a dumb idea, so they tried again, and then third time's the cha-- oh, nope. it's still going holy crap also, this is just a wrapper library for cairo. in the stdlib. for some reason. it took them four tries i'd love to see what they'd do with networking
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Mar 7, 2018 20:10
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Suspicious Dish posted:remember when the C++ guys tried to add a terrible 2D graphics API to C++, and it was a dumb idea, so they tried again, and then third time's the cha-- oh, nope. it's still going holy crap I’m static const rgba_color& burly_wood() noexcept; I should chat with whoever we have on the committee (if we even do nowadays) about this, see if there’s any inside laughs to be had
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Mar 7, 2018 20:25
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i'm the "Strategy: Ship in two years" from the 2013 paper
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Mar 7, 2018 20:29
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shell is great for writing ad hoc pipelines, and then suddenly you've solved the problem so you want to save your solution for future use, so you copy it into a file and try to make it generic and add parameters and now you're hosed forever
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Mar 7, 2018 20:30
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Gazpacho posted:if you're not willing to deal with bash's syntax in order to get a task done then maybe you're a cool person with refined tastes.
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Mar 7, 2018 20:35
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Suspicious Dish posted:i'd love to see what they'd do with networking havent followed for a while, wasnt it just gonna be boost::asio wrapped up
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Mar 7, 2018 20:45
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http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/n4588.pdf gently caress
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Mar 7, 2018 20:47
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eschaton posted:yeah, if they’d added IP networking to the C++ stdlib they’d have insisted on anything representing an address reducing to 32 bits at compile time “for performance” today's your lucky day class address; class address_v4; class address_v6; class address_iterator_v4; class address_iterator_v6; class address_range_v4; class address_range_v6; class network_v4; class network_v6; template<class InternetProtocol> class basic_endpoint; template<class InternetProtocol> class basic_resolver_entry; template<class InternetProtocol> class basic_resolver_results; template<class InternetProtocol> class basic_resolver; class tcp; class udp;
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Mar 7, 2018 20:48
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Suspicious Dish posted:remember when the C++ guys tried to add a terrible 2D graphics API to C++, and it was a dumb idea, so they tried again, and then third time's the cha-- oh, nope. it's still going holy crap 2d graphics is so inherently platform dependent, why is the stl trying to tackle that? are they seriously that fickle
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Mar 7, 2018 21:21
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Suspicious Dish posted:remember when the C++ guys tried to add a terrible 2D graphics API to C++, and it was a dumb idea, so they tried again, and then third time's the cha-- oh, nope. it's still going holy crap 1 page => 33 pages => 36 pages => 198 pages. This is soon a fully grown C++ extension, and then it can join the pack.
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Mar 7, 2018 22:25
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Plorkyeran posted:there's a bunch of debuggers for bash none of them come with the language, and none of them work trust me i have ample reason to know this
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Mar 7, 2018 22:45
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:bash is, literally, unironically, and heart-felt as a past abuser, the worst language weirdly in current use jcl might be worse not sure if that counts as "common" though
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Mar 7, 2018 22:45
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You have to multiply the absolute badness of the language by its prevalence.
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Mar 7, 2018 22:51
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Doom Mathematic posted:You have to multiply the absolute badness of the language by its prevalence. bash is definitely more common than jcl, but jcl is common for some value of the word, and it might be more bad. hard to say. when we are talking about poo poo like bash and jcl we are scraping bottom. like there's an absolute zero for how bad a language can be without being intentionally bad
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Mar 7, 2018 23:04
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Brain Candy posted:hmm yeah that is a prudent choice
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Mar 7, 2018 23:05
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mirc script is objectively the worst language that I tried doing things on
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Mar 7, 2018 23:07
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it's difficult rank bash as a bad language, because bash is good
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Mar 7, 2018 23:07
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Suspicious Dish posted:i'd love to see what they'd do with networking boost::asio Hopefully properly redesigned  Gazpacho posted:it's difficult rank bash as a bad language, because bash is good 
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Mar 7, 2018 23:24
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:jcl might be worse is it even really a language? feels more like markup to me i mean there's even xjcl which is just an xml schema for specifying java batch jobs
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Mar 7, 2018 23:39
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bash has some really, honestly great ideas in it. like someone said above, it's fantastic for writing pipelines. unfortunately, everything else
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Mar 8, 2018 00:14
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the best part about the insane 2d graphics proposal is that to ensure that it does not suffer the fate of previous large projects like concepts, they've decided that the sunk cost fallacy is actually a good thing and decreed that it must be obeyed. well we've spent 4 years on this and no one submitted a better proposal so now it's too late for you to argue that this is a terrible idea is not the most compelling argument for dumping a huge useless turd into the standard library
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Mar 8, 2018 00:48
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oh my god do they really have no graphics people at all on that committee. some guy from NVIDIA chimes in to say "maybe in 1996 this would be ok but today? lol no" the guy going "maybe this 2d api can be implementable by OS-level APIs" "please point out where things are underspecified" clearly has never even looked at any other OS-level API in existence also i didn't realize it had provisions to open up a window and display poo poo but not actually be able to retrieve input events. that's an amazing level of stupid
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Mar 8, 2018 01:06
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Plorkyeran posted:there's a bunch of debuggers for bash echo is not a debugger
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Mar 8, 2018 01:09
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also wtf there's a fifth revision? http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p0267r7.pdf
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Mar 8, 2018 01:10
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everyone with any relevant domain knowledge noped out about 3 years ago
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Mar 8, 2018 01:12
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:like there's an absolute zero for how bad a language can be without being intentionally bad you've clearly never used any of the several languages i've created
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Mar 8, 2018 01:14
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:bash is, literally, unironically, and heart-felt as a past abuser, the worst language weirdly in current use i quit the job sometime shortly after that and i don't think it was entirely coincidental
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Mar 8, 2018 02:02
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:hard to say. when we are talking about poo poo like bash and jcl we are scraping bottom. like there's an absolute zero for how bad a language can be without being intentionally bad With programming languages and code in general I think it's more like how we measure gravitational potential. The absolutely perfect code, written in the absolutely perfect language, is completely neutral, a zero, and unattainable. Everything else (i.e., everything) is just varying degrees of negativity. And yeah, there's no bottom.
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Mar 8, 2018 02:26
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:bash is, literally, unironically, and heart-felt as a past abuser, the worst language weirdly in current use have u tried power shell?
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Mar 8, 2018 02:50
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Suspicious Dish posted:oh my god do they really have no graphics people at all on that committee. some guy from NVIDIA chimes in to say "maybe in 1996 this would be ok but today? lol no" On the bright side, all this anti-2d api talk has finally gotten some core committee members to realize "oh, maybe a committee appointed de-facto package manager would be useful" and I'm vindicated from discussions at CppCon. If the 2D API makes it in, it'll be the new export template.
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Mar 8, 2018 02:54
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