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Lightning Knight posted:So tell us, galaxy brain, what the good faith reading of this statement is. Please, god no, not another oocc tangent. Now for something potentially catastrophic about the 'blue wave' https://twitter.com/cordeliers/status/971371191033319425
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Mar 7, 2018 21:10
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Lightning Knight posted:So tell us, galaxy brain, what the good faith reading of this statement is. "our claim to this place is our religion says so, not everyone follows that religion though"
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Mar 7, 2018 21:12
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Office Pig posted:Please, god no, not another oocc tangent. I'm sorry, what is oocc? Also I'm kind of surprised it took this long for all the military people to filter in, it was inevitable that a group of disenchanted Iraq War vets would make their way into Congress one way or another. The intelligence agency people are more alarming than people who were just generic soldiers imo. ^ I have bad news: this is a dumb take for him to espouse lol.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:12
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:"our claim to this place is our religion says so, not everyone follows that religion though" "God said we get to have an apartheid state so the Palestinians should get over being genocided"
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Mar 7, 2018 21:13
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Between Schumer’s statement and some of the hubbub surrounding the Women’s March and Farrakhan, not really an excellent few weeks for Jewish-Muslim relations.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:16
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm sorry, what is oocc? To be clear it's really a matter of all those hawks and security apparatus types getting endorsed by the party, the ones on anti-abortion and pro-fracking platforms who have zero business entering even the center-right field the establishment desires. When you have spooks and shitbag officers running for congress under the banner of one party's pseudo-opposition in a society that is increasingly paranoid about infiltrators within and without, you have the potential for something extremely nasty.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Seriously though, twitter bullshit is way more consequential than it should be, both because it helped our current Dear Leader get elected, and because every time he tweets something out it has far ranging consequences even if those consequences are not always immediate or direct. Hell it's harmful just to the extent that it distracts from more substantive stories. You've hit the nail on the head. Twitter isn't real, but a whole lot of people have been duped into believing it is. I choose not to support their delusion. It shouldn't matter, so I'm going to pretend it doesn't until it doesn't.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:20
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Raskolnikov38 posted:"God said we get to have an apartheid state" I mean that is literally what happened. "I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon’s hand and give you ten tribes. 32 But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe. 33 I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molek the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in obedience to me, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my decrees and laws as David, Solomon’s father, did.34 “‘But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon’s hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who obeyed my commands and decrees. 35 I will take the kingdom from his son’s hands and give you ten tribes. 36 I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name." But he is saying it's not that simple and not everyone follows that bible.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:21
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:But he is saying it's not that simple and not everyone follows that bible. He's framing it implicitly as a clash of civilization, and excising all of the sociopolitical and economic aspects of the story in the process. The story of Israel is the story of colonization and subjugation of non-white peoples as much as it is the story of a clash of religious beliefs.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:22
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its kind of interesting to me that no one yells at the UK for creating this goddamn mess in the first place
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Mar 7, 2018 21:23
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Lightning Knight posted:He's framing it implicitly as a clash of civilization, and excising all of the sociopolitical and economic aspects of the story in the process. The story of Israel is the story of colonization and subjugation of non-white peoples as much as it is the story of a clash of religious beliefs. Hmm yes, it's almost like you could say that the bible story is very simple and very clear and absolute but not everyone follows that religion and that is why there can be fighting about it.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:24
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Hmm yes, it's almost like you could say that the bible story is very simple and very clear and absolute but not everyone follows that religion and that is why there can be fighting about it. Hmm yes, it's almost like it's dishonest to even center the Bible when discussing the I/P conflict when it's not actually the core of the conflict.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:25
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Lightning Knight posted:Hmm yes, it's almost like it's dishonest to even center the Bible when discussing the I/P conflict when it's not actually the core of the conflict. Literally the statement is saying the torah can't be the end of the discussion because some people don't follow it.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:28
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Literally the statement is saying the torah can't be the end of the discussion because some people don't follow it. I have bad news.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:31
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Hmm yes, it's almost like you could say that the bible story is very simple and very clear and absolute but not everyone follows that religion and that is why there can be fighting about it. The implication then, is if Palestinians began believing in that Bible story, they'd happily sign over their land and line up in front of the ovens?
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Mar 7, 2018 21:32
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crossposting from Trump thread, courtesy of Crow Jane. https://www.cnet.com/news/pepe-the-frog-creator-sues-alex-jones-infowars/ The creator of Pepe is still trying to prevent his work from being used by shitheads. Poor guy. 
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Mar 7, 2018 21:35
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https://twitter.com/elankaroll/status/970745966956548098 Zero Democrats are going to address Israel's purge of Sudanese and Eritreans.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:39
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Raskolnikov38 posted:its kind of interesting to me that no one yells at the UK for creating this goddamn mess in the first place tbf, if you look at all the horrible poo poo that British imperialism has caused this doesn't even get into the top ten. Honestly it's pretty incredible what they've gotten away with.
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Mar 7, 2018 21:44
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VitalSigns posted:The implication then, is if Palestinians began believing in that Bible story, they'd happily sign over their land and line up in front of the ovens? It's almost like claims made on religious biases exist in a world where not everyone is the same religion and that is why it's not as simple as pointing to a clear answer in a religious text.
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Mar 7, 2018 22:01
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NaanViolence posted:You've hit the nail on the head. Twitter isn't real, but a whole lot of people have been duped into believing it is. I choose not to support their delusion. It shouldn't matter, so I'm going to pretend it doesn't until it doesn't. The claim that the ideas people communicate have importance solely based on the medium of communication is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this forum.
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Mar 7, 2018 22:23
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NaanViolence posted:You've hit the nail on the head. Twitter isn't real, but a whole lot of people have been duped into believing it is. I choose not to support their delusion. It shouldn't matter, so I'm going to pretend it doesn't until it doesn't. Lmfao
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Mar 7, 2018 22:25
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oocc is literally trying to gaslight people into thinking they didn't hear Schumer say what he said. The video is literally embedded in the last page. Even if Schumer wasn't condescendingly chiding the Palestinians for not believing in the Torah, there still remains his blatant, ahistoric lie that the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Jewish state
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Mar 7, 2018 23:18
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Chomskyan posted:oocc is literally trying to gaslight people into thinking they didn't hear Schumer say what he said. The video is literally embedded in the last page. Even if Schumer wasn't condescendingly chiding the Palestinians for not believing in the Torah, there still remains his blatant, ahistoric lie that the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Jewish state . The jews have been trying to extermibate the canaanites for millennia
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Mar 8, 2018 00:50
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Lightning Knight posted:Here's an article about the aftermath of the WV strike and how labor organizers are setting their sights on November. i'm sorry i can't get over the fact that this "progressive" talking about a "blue wave" voted for Trump. and his reason wasn't "i was a loving idiot a year ago but I learned what was wrong with my vote and am now a staunch progressive" but was "well how was I to know that he was a liar and a dummy? not my fault, he sounded so relatable and sincere on the trail"
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Mar 8, 2018 00:54
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Literally the statement is saying the torah can't be the end of the discussion because some people don't follow it.
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Mar 8, 2018 00:57
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Kilroy posted:This is an awfully charitable interpretation of the statement. if it were not Chuck Schumer saying it i might be willing to believe it, but Chuck Schumer over the course of his political career has made it so incredibly clear where he stands in this discussion that it's hard to be that charitable. He would never explicitly praise Israeli genocide of Palestinians but he would not be particularly saddened if all the Palestinians just disappeared one day and the argument was over and Israel was an explicitly Jewish state.
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Mar 8, 2018 01:02
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DC Murderverse posted:if it were not Chuck Schumer saying it i might be willing to believe it, but Chuck Schumer over the course of his political career has made it so incredibly clear where he stands in this discussion that it's hard to be that charitable. He would never explicitly praise Israeli genocide of Palestinians but he would not be particularly saddened if all the Palestinians just disappeared one day and the argument was over and Israel was an explicitly Jewish state. In the same speech he also expressly praised the decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem so yeah it’s pretty clear what he meant
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Mar 8, 2018 01:08
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Mornacale posted:The claim that the ideas people communicate have importance solely based on the medium of communication is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this forum. on the plus side, this forum doesn't exist
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Mar 8, 2018 01:08
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DC Murderverse posted:if it were not Chuck Schumer saying it i might be willing to believe it, but Chuck Schumer over the course of his political career has made it so incredibly clear where he stands in this discussion that it's hard to be that charitable. He would never explicitly praise Israeli genocide of Palestinians but he would not be particularly saddened if all the Palestinians just disappeared one day and the argument was over and Israel was an explicitly Jewish state. this is where i am, and why I haven't fishmeched about the particular sentence everybody's up in arms about taken in isolation it's totally fine and even in context it's not quite as bad as some folks are claiming but taken in combination with Schumer's past positions and, you know, the rest of the speech, it's more "Israel is good and the Palestinians should accept their status as an effectively subject nation"
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Mar 8, 2018 01:10
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, Bush started his dumb war in Iraq as much over his daddy complex and weird religious bullshit as he did for mundane poo poo like oil and economic gain. Trump starting a war in Korea because he's gotta prove his dick is the biggest wouldn't be significantly far off the mark tbh. Is there actually any concrete basis for this? Because I've seen a bunch of people say this, and I have trouble believing that Bush's own individual desires really played a prominent role in the choice to invade, as opposed to the broader desires of the Republican Party and its donors and other related special interests. edit: I just get the general sense that it might be one of those things people blindly assume is true and repeat to one another. I don't exactly doubt that one or both of those things might have served as part of Bush's motivation, but I do doubt that they played a significant role in actually making the war happen.
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Mar 8, 2018 01:37
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DC Murderverse posted:i'm sorry i can't get over the fact that this "progressive" talking about a "blue wave" voted for Trump. and his reason wasn't "i was a loving idiot a year ago but I learned what was wrong with my vote and am now a staunch progressive" but was "well how was I to know that he was a liar and a dummy? not my fault, he sounded so relatable and sincere on the trail" I’m willing to accept people who admit they were wrong if they mean it. I would want to ask him a bunch of questions about what he thinks of immigrants, Black Lives Matter, women’s rights - I want to ask him if he feels that progressivism is for everyone, not just his neighbors. But I don’t think he’s a bad person, rather than someone who simply made a very stupid decision and now regrets it appropriately. Maybe that’s a dealbreaker to you. I think that’s fair. But I’d at least be willing to chat with him. https://twitter.com/meaganmday/status/971459888424480768?s=21
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Mar 8, 2018 01:40
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Ytlaya posted:Is there actually any concrete basis for this? Because I've seen a bunch of people say this, and I have trouble believing that Bush's own individual desires really played a prominent role in the choice to invade, as opposed to the broader desires of the Republican Party and its donors and other related special interests. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa Here is one example of his crazy religious poo poo. There was another well known account of I want to say a European leader talking to Bush and Bush going on about how Iraq was part of the coming of the rapture and other crazy poo poo. I don’t currently have a source on the daddy issues part but I thought it was common knowledge that part of his vendetta against Saddam was because of the assassination attempt against Bush Sr. Maybe I’m misremembering. I’m not saying that Bush was the sole driving force behind Iraq happening, but him being a bad person set on war for stupid reasons was part of how we got into Iraq.
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Mar 8, 2018 01:46
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^^^ Yeah, I know he (and other members of his cabinet) had religious motivation, but I'm not sure how much of a factor in actually causing the invasion that actually was. Regarding the Bush 1 stuff, my perception having been of politically-aware age during the Bush years is that it was something people just said because it seemed like a good insult (makes Bush seem immature, etc, since portraying Bush as super dumb was a big thing*), and I don't think I've ever seen any sort of evidence supporting it actually factored into Bush's decision. It's entirely possible I just missed the evidence in question, though, which is why I was asking. * This actually always bugged me. Bush might not be exceptionally smart or anything, but the guy got a 1200 on his SAT, which is still considerably above average. He wasn't a dumb guy, or at least not the caricature liberals made of him, and I feel like portraying him as such actually lead to misjudging the nature of him and the Republican Party in general. Trump seems to be Actually Pretty Stupid, but I think that Bush was always of relatively average intelligence for a politician. DC Murderverse posted:i'm sorry i can't get over the fact that this "progressive" talking about a "blue wave" voted for Trump. and his reason wasn't "i was a loving idiot a year ago but I learned what was wrong with my vote and am now a staunch progressive" but was "well how was I to know that he was a liar and a dummy? not my fault, he sounded so relatable and sincere on the trail" My feeling is that it should absolutely count against him, but that I would still consider the concrete harmful ideology/policy of a competing candidate (or the absence of important helpful policy/ideology) more important. I don't think it makes sense to consider it an absolute disqualifier but not to consider something like, say, a candidate being opposed to $15/hr minimum wage (or whatever) one. If anything, the former is more representative of just general naivety or poor judgement, while the latter represents a more concrete ideological disagreement, and if I absolutely had to choose I'd go with the former over the latter. To be clear, I would consider it consistent and understandable if someone thought his actions disqualified him and also thought Democrats with bad ideology/policy were unacceptable. My issue is only with people selectively deciding stuff like this is beyond the pale while tolerating all sorts of other terrible poo poo. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 01:50
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http://www.policyconference.org/article/transcripts/2018/schumer.aspquote:Now, seriously, tonight I want to address the cause that brings us together, the cause of Israel, her security, her prosperity and her prospects for peace. These issues are all related, but let me begin by addressing the issue of peace. Many wonder: “Why don't we have peace in the Middle East?” even though a majority of Israelis want peace and believe like I do and most of you do, that there should be two states, a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. He literally says the blame is one sided. He's speaking to a PAC for a foreign nation, that gives him massive funding, about how a holy book says they have a right to the land so they took it, and yet only the other side is to blame because apparently taking land because a holy book says so leaves you blameless, and America ("we" apparently) need to stand by them against the Palestinians, who deserve all the blame. gently caress off with defending this poo poo. This guy is George W. Bush but for Israel instead of the American Christian right. quote:“You know, my name .... comes from the word shomer, guardian, watcher. My ancestors were guardians of the ghetto wall in Chortkov. And I believe Hashem [Orthodox for God] actually gave me that name. One of my roles, very important in the United States senate, is to be a shomer — to be a or the shomer Yisrael. And I will continue to be that with every bone in my body ...” https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/schumer-im-on-a-mission-f_b_560091.html FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 02:15
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t currently have a source on the daddy issues part but I thought it was common knowledge that part of his vendetta against Saddam was because of the assassination attempt against Bush Sr. Maybe I’m misremembering. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90764&page=1 quote:Some Americans have wondered whether the president's determination to take on Saddam is a personal obsession — one born in the aftermath of the Gulf War his father launched, when Saddam was left in power. Lightning Knight posted:I’m not saying that Bush was the sole driving force behind Iraq happening, but him being a bad person set on war for stupid reasons was part of how we got into Iraq. the pnac had been pushing clinton for an invasion since 97-98 and luckily for them most of them found jobs in the bush administration
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Mar 8, 2018 02:53
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there was also the phone call to chirac that left the french wondering why bush was saying gog and maggog had set up shop in Iraq
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Mar 8, 2018 03:01
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Raskolnikov38 posted:there was also the phone call to chirac that left the french wondering why bush was saying gog and maggog had set up shop in Iraq That’s what I was thinking of! Also thank you, Muppets. 
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Mar 8, 2018 03:04
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On the topic of AIPAC: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/07/kamala-harris-israel-aipac/ Nothing like a public position and a private position.
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Mar 8, 2018 03:09
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So how many Democrats are going to keep doing this dumb poo poo, and at what point can I just write in a vote for Likud and call it a day?
Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 03:50
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Chomskyan posted:oocc is literally trying to gaslight people into thinking they didn't hear Schumer say what he said. The video is literally embedded in the last page. Even if Schumer wasn't condescendingly chiding the Palestinians for not believing in the Torah, there still remains his blatant, ahistoric lie that the Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a Jewish state Do you really think Chuck Schumer gives a poo poo about religion? It's a lot more complicated than what you said about willingness to accept given that Hamas does not support a state, Fatah has refused to accept formally Israel as a Jewish state as a precondition to negotiations (which I'm not saying is necessarily a good idea), and the concept of a "right of return" is contrary to the idea of partitioning into two separate, ethnic-majority states.
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