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WampaLord posted:Ah yes, noted Florida Democratic Governor Rick Scott, who signed this bill. What a fuckup. Bad job, Dems, picking Rick Scott to run for governor. I'm so pissed I'm listening to Bob Dylan.
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Mar 9, 2018 22:31
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WampaLord posted:Ah yes, noted Florida Democratic Governor Rick Scott, who signed this bill. What a fuckup. Bad job, Dems, picking Rick Scott to run for governor. Tbf Dems also picked a Republican to run for governor. Of course Crist came out opposing arming teachers, so even here the problem is of course Republicans.
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Mar 9, 2018 22:47
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Sorry you like more guns in schools I guess?? Go gently caress yourself
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Mar 9, 2018 22:52
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What you need to know about Florida Democrats is that they're mostly New Jersey Republicans. I guess I can't be that mad though since nobody I voted for voted for this. Because my Rep and Senator are, respectively, a Republican and a vacant seat due to sexmonstering. We need a crying Florida emote.
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Mar 9, 2018 22:56
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Atleast we are all able to agree arming teachers is a terrible idea
patonthebach fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 23:27
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patonthebach posted:Atleast we are all able to agree arming teachers is a terrible idea A terrible idea that is largely championed by second amendment white knights Because when your position is "the second amendment is sacrosanct, we can't give an inch" then your only remaining option is "maybe we can reduce shootings by giving guns to more people???"
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Mar 10, 2018 02:26
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patonthebach posted:What is your specific legislation you think would stop mass shooters? First, your question is too narrowly framed. I think we should try and reduce all gun related death and injury. Second, why do you care what I, random forums wanker, think specific legislation should be?
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Mar 10, 2018 05:11
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r.y.f.s.o. posted:First, your question is too narrowly framed. I think we should try and reduce all gun related death and injury. twodot fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 05:17
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Liquid Communism posted:Just step over to gunchat in D&D for your example of why. Any position that isn't mindless support of a full ban and confiscation makes you a baby killing mental defective in the eyes of a certain part of the population. Knowing enough anout gun law to speak to what is already on the books makes your purity suspect. Hey Liquid Communism if you've got a problem with this thread don't be a coward and post about it in TFR.
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Mar 10, 2018 05:20
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captainblastum posted:Hey Liquid Communism if you've got a problem with this thread don't be a coward and post about it in TFR. He might feel safer if we let TFR posters carry their arms when they visit.
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Mar 10, 2018 05:30
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patonthebach posted:Yes yes and yes. Happy to hear that? So like this is a lovely stance you have but I get it. And I guess there might be a lot of lovely people with that same stance. Hence why we have laws. We make destructive behavior illegal to protect society from reckless assholes. Can you give a single rational argument for why we shouldn't bar people like you from owning guns?
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Mar 10, 2018 06:20
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I have created a blender and sold it to people all across the country. The blender has had 1000 reported issues; 994 of those were just a one-time error message that goes away, the other 6 results in the near-instant death of the user (the blender gains sentience, transforms into a tiny man, and chops up the user in less than a second before destroying itself). I think that doing something about the transforming death-robot bug is the most important thing but twodot sent me a message complaining that 0.6% is too low of an incident rate to matter and that we should really focus on the error message
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Mar 10, 2018 06:22
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captainblastum posted:Hey Liquid Communism if you've got a problem with this thread don't be a coward and post about it in TFR. Liquid Communism posted:Other countries get by fine without the populace clamoring for it in large part because they have the US' absurd defense budget spending to act a a proxy for their own self-defense, so can afford to spend their money on social programs that reduce violent crime. Were the US to pull out of NATO, western Europe would get very different spending priorities in about ten minutes flat. lmao lmaoooooooo
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Mar 10, 2018 06:25
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Is this heldump now and can I start making fun of people who posted in the star trek thread? Edit: What if they posted about phasers?
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Mar 10, 2018 09:03
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Is this heldump now and can I start making fun of people who posted in the star trek thread? If you need to ask, you're really asking for a probation, methinks. 
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Mar 10, 2018 09:05
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twodot posted:I thought our entire conversation was that I was arguing we should focus on all gun related death and injury (and even more generally all preventable death and injury), and you were arguing that focusing on mass shootings was good for unstated reasons. Did that change? No mate - I've explained to you a bunch of occasions that I'm trying to get you to see that the value judgment of "mass shootings are worth fixing" involves more factors than "percentage of total preventable deaths" but the part of your brain which handles empathy is instead apparently, in fact, a big, bloody pivot table.
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Mar 10, 2018 14:44
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twodot posted:They're very different things with different causes so if we wanted to reduce them we'd use different strategies. Empirically, school shootings causes a lot less harm than automobile deaths, so it would be foolish to prioritize school shootings over automobile deaths. (edit: Unless, of course, you were reasonably confident that preventing automobile deaths were significantly harder than school shootings) We currently need cars, we don't currently need guns. twodot posted:Maybe you could just describe the non-fact thing you plan to use to persuade people on policy decisions, and I can decide what my objection looks like. I'm not sure it's gonna work with you. Do calculators experience cognitive dissonance? twodot posted:Strange question. Do guns cause more harm than they prevent? Seems like the answer has to be yes? I can't imagine the mere existence of guns is preventing harm anywhere close to the amount of harm they create through use. I guess maybe if you thought the police were a force for good, you could make that argument, but it seems thin. Cool, so let's ban guns then. We don't need them. It's worth doing something about it. twodot posted:A buh? You said total deaths weren't a measure of total harm. I replied that statistically total deaths is a great proxy for total harm, since we can reasonably assume secondary effects average out over large groups. Now you're giving me tautologies like "people can consider non-quantifiable factors when making decisions" like, yeah, obviously, what's that have to do with anything? Actually, in your case, not obviously.
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Mar 10, 2018 15:27
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MixMastaTJ posted:Can you give a single rational argument for why we shouldn't bar people like you from owning guns? I'm not sure what you mean by you people but ok. Ccw holders are about five times less likely to commit a violent crime then the general population. About four times less likely to commit a dui. Ccw holders aren't the ones shooting people. Illegal gun holders, irresponsible gun owners and gun owners with domestic violence and mental health issues commit the majority of these crimes. Let's do more to keep guns out of their hands. Let's have longer sentences for people who use a firearms in a crime. Let's get tougher on mental health funding for people who need it. Let's have comprehensive background checks that screen out people with active dangerous mental health issues , and domestic violence. Let's make storage laws much tougher. I believe this will save immensely more lives than a ban on ar15s or the improbable chance that America citizens would ever accept disarmament.
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Mar 10, 2018 15:41
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r.y.f.s.o. posted:We currently need cars, we don't currently need guns. quote:I'm not sure it's gonna work with you. Do calculators experience cognitive dissonance? You see the problem I have? quote:Cool, so let's ban guns then. We don't need them. It's worth doing something about it. quote:Actually, in your case, not obviously. twodot fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 16:00
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MixMastaTJ posted:Can you give a single rational argument for why we shouldn't bar people like you from owning guns? "We" do, because he's Canadian and he's arguing entirely based on what he imagines the USA is like, and having never actually dealt with the consequences of their lax gun regulations.
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Mar 10, 2018 16:12
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QuarkJets posted:I have created a blender and sold it to people all across the country. The blender has had 1000 reported issues; 994 of those were just a one-time error message that goes away, the other 6 results in the near-instant death of the user (the blender gains sentience, transforms into a tiny man, and chops up the user in less than a second before destroying itself).
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Mar 10, 2018 16:15
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Stop arguing with people who are debating in bad faith. It always goes like this: "So you want to do X? Well, that doesn't solve literally every problem! You should do Y instead!" "Okay, let's do X and Y!" "Whoa! You want to do X AND Y??? Too much regulation!!! How about we do half of each one?" "Well, okay, I suppose it's better than nothing." * time passes * "Half-X and Half-Y are useless! Therefore, we should clearly never consider X or Y ever again."
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Mar 10, 2018 16:19
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PT6A posted:"We" do, because he's Canadian and he's arguing entirely based on what he imagines the USA is like, and having never actually dealt with the consequences of their lax gun regulations. I feel we have a unique perspective as we live in a country that has basically all of the proposed gun controls that pundits are hoping for in the USA and we still have mass shooters. That's why I am proposing a more multi faceted approach to the issue. The metastudy that is being repeatedly discussed in this thread I believe didn't find a link between our gun control and the homicide rate either. But if only people live in America can comment in this thread I'll be happy to bow out after you.
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Mar 10, 2018 16:27
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patonthebach posted:we still have mass shooters  I feel like if the US had only the same number of mass shooters (or just gun deaths in general) as Canada, even per capita, most people would consider that a significant loving improvement.
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Mar 10, 2018 16:33
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patonthebach posted:I'm not sure what you mean by you people but ok. A good argument for licensing requirements to buy a firearm, which would be much better than what we do now
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Mar 10, 2018 16:33
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captainblastum posted:Hey Liquid Communism if you've got a problem with this thread don't be a coward and post about it in TFR. Honestly there's not much point, that post just reveals what we already know: anti-gun-control beliefs are basically religious in nature. You can show them all the empirical evidence in the world that gun control works, it won't matter because they want to believe that criminals are magic and will summon guns from the Astral Plane and we all need as many guns as possible to defend against Summoner Criminals!
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Mar 10, 2018 16:35
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patonthebach posted:I feel we have a unique perspective as we live in a country that has basically all of the proposed gun controls that pundits are hoping for in the USA and we still have mass shooters. That's why I am proposing a more multi faceted approach to the issue. Well Canada has less shootings than the US so how about we implement all those Canadian gun laws into the US and also work on banning guns long term?
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Mar 10, 2018 17:32
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twodot posted:Lol, in your analogy all gun deaths that aren't the result of mass shootings are literally equivalent to a blender having "a one-time error message that goes away". That's your actual argument? Gun "incidents" include any kind of discharge at all, iirc, and half of those are events where no one was injured. So when you start talking about the frequency of mass shootings being too small of a percentage of all gun incidents then what you're saying is that you care more about inconsequential incidents than mass shootings, simply because the inconsequential incidents are more frequent
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Mar 10, 2018 17:49
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QuarkJets posted:Gun "incidents" include any kind of discharge at all, iirc, and half of those are events where no one was injured. So when you start talking about the frequency of mass shootings being too small of a percentage of all gun incidents then what you're saying is that you care more about inconsequential incidents than mass shootings, simply because the inconsequential incidents are more frequent twodot fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 17:53
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Boris Galerkin posted:Well Canada has less shootings than the US so how about we implement all those Canadian gun laws into the US and also work on banning guns long term? Yes to the first part. We agree on that. Disarmament of Americans isn't going to happen in this generation. Here's what I said before about what I think would help and actually has some chance of being implemented. Illegal gun holders, irresponsible gun owners and gun owners with domestic violence and mental health issues commit the majority of these crimes. Let's do more to keep guns out of their hands. Let's have longer sentences for people who use a firearms in a crime. Let's get tougher on mental health funding for people who need it. Let's have comprehensive background checks that screen out people with active dangerous mental health issues , and domestic violence. Let's make storage laws much tougher.
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Mar 10, 2018 18:44
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PT6A posted:"We" do, because he's Canadian and he's arguing entirely based on what he imagines the USA is like, and having never actually dealt with the consequences of their lax gun regulations. loving  patonthebach posted:Disarmament of Americans isn't going to happen in this generation. Wonder how many Australians were saying this a couple decades ago.
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Mar 10, 2018 18:48
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All that also ban semiautos, they are worthless for anything you actually need a gun for (except fighting wars or shooting up a school, obviously)
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Mar 10, 2018 18:48
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WampaLord posted:loving Australia didn't ban guns outright
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Mar 10, 2018 18:55
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patonthebach posted:Australia didn't ban guns outright I'd be perfectly happy starting out with copying Australia's laws and seeing how well they work here, we can move up to full ban if the shootings are still too high. I AM COMING FOR YOUR GUNS, BITCH
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Mar 10, 2018 18:57
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patonthebach posted:
Tell me which part of this you disagree with
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Mar 10, 2018 19:02
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patonthebach posted:Tell me which part of this you disagree with None it's a good start. Also add semiautos to the NFA, that's already constitutional.
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Mar 10, 2018 19:03
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patonthebach posted:Do you think there are certain people who would be objectively safer if they carried a concealed pistol? Certain undersized or under strength people? People that are witnesses to a serious crime? Visible minorities? Etc Having a gun literally always raises the odds of a fatality. Shut the gently caress up with this "wow you just don't want poc or gay people to be able to defend themselves" horseshit
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Mar 10, 2018 21:52
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Having a gun literally always raises the odds of a fatality. Shut the gently caress up with this "wow you just don't want poc or gay people to be able to defend themselves" horseshit also it’s been posted a million times that owning a gun increases the likelihood of suicide or homicide significantly more than a justified self defence shoot
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Mar 10, 2018 22:01
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Having a gun literally always raises the odds of a fatality. Shut the gently caress up with this "wow you just don't want poc or gay people to be able to defend themselves" horseshit Yeah, that's LeJackal's schtick.
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Mar 10, 2018 22:01
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twodot posted:Hey I wanted to compare gun deaths to mass shooting deaths (0.3% in 2017), but r.y.f.s.o. claimed my numbers were wrong and posted incident numbers. By the way I don't think incidents can include any kind of discharge at all, because they claimed 346 mass shooting incidents for 2017 which seems definitely wrong for discharges. Deaths and injuries are subsets of incidents so obviously there were a lot of incidents (regardless of what that means) that did not lead to death or injury
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Mar 10, 2018 22:04
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