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VitalSigns posted:People in the Trump thread getting real sad when sweatshops are attacked: let this thread be a safe space for pro-slavery apologism Not supporting Trump's tariffs doesn't equal supporting sweat shops.
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Mar 9, 2018 20:41
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ReverendMech posted:Not supporting Trump's tariffs doesn't equal supporting sweat shops. No, but agreeing with the Heritage Foundation that sweatshops are good for the global poor sure does!
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Mar 9, 2018 20:43
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VitalSigns posted:No, but agreeing with the Heritage Foundation that sweatshops are good for the global poor sure does! If someone did this in the Trump thread I must of missed it. Could you quote the post?
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Mar 9, 2018 20:45
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ReverendMech posted:If someone did this in the Trump thread I must of missed it. Could you quote the post? This kind of stuff theflyingorc posted:Also, make VERY SURE to ignore how globalization has helped to elevate the global poor (while enriching the HELL out of the rich, granted)
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Mar 9, 2018 21:02
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VitalSigns posted:This kind of stuff ReverendMech fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Mar 9, 2018 |
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Mar 9, 2018 21:07
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Florida Governor Rick Scott signed a bill with some gun restrictions and holy gently caress people are losing their poo poo.
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Mar 9, 2018 21:15
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The annoying thing about "exploitation of poor people in developing nations helps them" arguments is that in many cases they're technically true, but that completely ignores the fact that it's still grossly immoral because wealthy US/Western corporations are taking the vast majority of the value they produce. And even this is a pretty generous evaluation, since it isn't even clear that globalization is always helpful, particularly in the longer run. edit: It's also extremely rich how these arguments almost always come from some fucker with a job making at least double the US median wage or something.
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Mar 9, 2018 23:28
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It's technically true in the sense that working children to death in coal mines was ""better"" for them than starving to death in a world that could provide for them but didn't want to.
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Mar 9, 2018 23:39
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VitalSigns posted:No, but agreeing with the Heritage Foundation that sweatshops are good for the global poor sure does! VitalSigns posted:It's technically true in the sense that working children to death in coal mines was ""better"" for them than starving to death in a world that could provide for them but didn't want to. So what's your point, then? Because in the span of two posts you both condemned the sentiment and acknowledged its fundamental truth. Also, have you seen it both sides of that coin first-hand? Boon fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 01:06
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Boon posted:So what's your point, then? Because in the span of two posts you both condemned the sentiment and acknowledged its fundamental truth. it's almost like it's being boiled down to a yes/no question on purpose because if you introduce any moral complexity into it it becomes clear that it's a horribly lovely thing to support
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Mar 10, 2018 01:09
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Ytlaya posted:The annoying thing about "exploitation of poor people in developing nations helps them" arguments is that in many cases they're technically true, but that completely ignores the fact that it's still grossly immoral because wealthy US/Western corporations are taking the vast majority of the value they produce. And even this is a pretty generous evaluation, since it isn't even clear that globalization is always helpful, particularly in the longer run. its not helpful in the least. people working in sweatshop economies are weighed down in debts. these are 3rd-world workers barely able to afford to live and fearing for their livelihood and safety with loansharks breathing down their necks. how can such a situation exist if these people are being helped by the sweatshops? how is there so much rampant unemployment in these countries if globalization is the boon it's claimed to be? the answer is that globalization and sweatshops enforce these conditions in order to have a cheap source of labor. the US frequently opens "free" trade with small host countries, floods their economy with dirt cheap, subsidized US agriculture. this makes farming not an option for these people anymore. they are then driven into cities in hope of some way to survive, and what do you know, a US company has a sweatshop that might hire them. and it pays so little that a ton of the people employed by them are still homeless! by taking these countries and forcing their industries to compete with US industries on an uneven basis (the third world countries don't get to subsidize their industries or place tariffs on US imports, while the US certainly can do that for their own), the US and its companies are able to wipe out the economies of these countries and parasitically benefit from the labor of their poor.
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Mar 10, 2018 01:12
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large adult son posted:it's almost like it's being boiled down to a yes/no question on purpose because if you introduce any moral complexity into it it becomes clear that it's a horribly lovely thing to support Yeah, agreed. However, if I've learned anything in my travels it's that morality is subjective and toeing the line of "I'm a white man from a developed western culture and let me tell you what is good for you and your country" is pretty hazardous at best. From 10,000 feet I can say that sweat shops are abhorrent and can argue myself blue that companies should be heavily punished for pursuing human abuses like that. From being next to the family who depend on it for their livelihood, it's hard for me to say that they shouldn't willingly partake or that the companies who have invested in those economies aren't performing some level of a good. The point is, that as per the usual, VitalSigns has reduced a very nuanced debate to a black and white "I'm right, you're wrong" Boon fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 01:13
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Boon posted:Yeah, agreed. However, if I've learned anything in my travels it's that morality is subjective and toeing the line of "I'm a white man from a developed western culture and let me tell you what is good for you and your country" is pretty hazardous at best. no-one's saying the families trying to survive shouldn't do what they can to survive boon. we're saying that US companies are evil for putting these people in this situation in the first place (and yes, the desperate condition these people live in is entirely intentional).
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Mar 10, 2018 01:17
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These arguments that sweatshops are better than what came before generally ignore that these sweatshops frequently come with the establishment of local arrangements to prevent any sort of organizing or alternative to the sweatshops. If you set up a sweatshop and then people choose to work in them because it's better than the alternatives in terms of employment, we could sincerely argue that they are an improvement. So sure, if we ignore the military apparatus and thugs that accompany most sweatshops, we can certainly argue that it is a better alternative.
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Mar 10, 2018 01:18
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Condiv posted:no-one's saying the families trying to survive shouldn't do what they can to survive boon. we're saying that US companies are evil for putting these people in this situation in the first place (and yes, the desperate condition these people live in is entirely intentional). But won't you think of the shareholders? Paying less abhorrent wages would shave a fraction of a cent off of the EPS and I can think of no greater crime than harming an investor's Net Worth High Score.
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Mar 10, 2018 01:20
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Boon posted:Yeah, agreed. However, if I've learned anything in my travels
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Mar 10, 2018 01:44
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Boon posted:Yeah, agreed. However, if I've learned anything in my travels it's that morality is subjective and toeing the line of "I'm a white man from a developed western culture and let me tell you what is good for you and your country" is pretty hazardous at best. No, simply no. This is the same thing people do when they say that the increase of minimum wage may result in some job loss which makes it bad. The job of governments (or at least leftist governments) is to find a way to inject morality into such business dealings (at least right now when capitalism rules the world). This has nothing to do with culture and subjective morality, exploitation is wrong wherever it happens and it has nothing to do with your white/nonwhite view. Saying that sweatshops are wrong isn't some kind of cultural attack or whatever you want to call it.
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Mar 10, 2018 01:44
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Boon posted:So what's your point, then? Because in the span of two posts you both condemned the sentiment and acknowledged its fundamental truth. It's a false dilemma, we don't have to work children to death in the coal mines, what is wrong with you And yes I have, exploitation is wrong, Boon. Tax the wealthy, Marshall Plan the global south. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 01:52
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Also, China is looking at becoming an uninhabitable polluted wasteland, to the point where it can no longer produce enough food to feed itself and is dependent on imports!
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Mar 10, 2018 01:56
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Inescapable Duck posted:Also, China is looking at becoming an uninhabitable polluted wasteland, to the point where it can no longer produce enough food to feed itself and is dependent on imports! Just like they made the relatively quick switch from being a largely agrarian society to being an industrial powerhouse, China has set its sights on becoming the world leader on green technology. If they change at the rate they did previously, in ten or twenty years, they'll be the world leader on renewable technologies and will no longer be polluting at the rate they are now. A large amount of the solar panels and technology used globally now come from China, I believe. This is why Trumps levies on Solar imports are to be kept in mind, as alot of the booming solar installation set-ups in the US use said technology.
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Mar 10, 2018 02:41
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Boon posted:Yeah, agreed. However, if I've learned anything in my travels it's that morality is subjective and toeing the line of "I'm a white man from a developed western culture and let me tell you what is good for you and your country" is pretty hazardous at best. lol at saying "willingly partake" as if its an actual choice. Economic coercion isn't a choice, it's essentially slavery. Also they aren't investing anything in those communities. They are extracting as much value as possible from them before it's no longer feasible, at which point they abandon them immediately.
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Mar 10, 2018 03:56
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Boon posted:Yeah, agreed. However, if I've learned anything in my travels it's that morality is subjective and toeing the line of "I'm a white man from a developed western culture and let me tell you what is good for you and your country" is pretty hazardous at best. Nah, you're the one oversimplifying it. You're taking a situation that is morally grey only in the sense of being "super dark grey that is almost black" and just calling it "grey." What I mean is that it's a situation with some moral complexity, but even after considering the pros and cons it is transparently obvious that corporations from developed nations are acting in a grossly immoral manner. Taking advantage of people in a bad situation and exploiting them for disproportionate value is wrong, and it's especially wrong when it involves also exploiting the resources of their country. The fact that the Western/developed nations in question were in a much better relative position that allowed them to offer so little in exchange for so much doesn't make it remotely acceptable. Consider the following analogy: There are 5 people, and 1 person is given $1,000,000 while the other 4 are given nothing. The person with $1,000,000 then gives the others the minimum they need to live in exchange for them doing labor that earns him 5x as much as what he's paying them. The person with $1M is not doing anything good in this situation. He is merely choosing an immoral action that is marginally less immoral than the alternative immoral action of doing nothing. Literally no one is saying that poor people in developing nations shouldn't work in sweatshops if it's better than their alternatives. That's why it's exploitation; because they don't have any alternatives (which is often specifically due to the actions of the Western corporations/nations in question). large adult son posted:No, simply no. This is the same thing people do when they say that the increase of minimum wage may result in some job loss which makes it bad. The job of governments (or at least leftist governments) is to find a way to inject morality into such business dealings (at least right now when capitalism rules the world). Basically what this guy says. The fact that a situation has pros and cons does not inherently make it morally complex/uncertain. There are many situations (like this or the example "large adult son" gave) where it's still obvious that the action in question is morally wrong. Kilroy posted:Let me stop you right there, Boon. You haven't. I'm pretty sure that Americans/Westerners "going on travels" somehow manages to make them even more ignorant most of the time. Probably because it gives them baseless confidence in their subjective opinions about the world. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Mar 10, 2018 |
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Mar 10, 2018 05:05
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Remember less than a decade ago when the US government did everything in its power to stop Haitian workers who it described as working for "slave wages" from getting a slight pay increase?quote:Wikileaks Reveals Obama Administration's Role in Stifling Haitian Minimum Wage They also supported a violent coup against the popular local leader, conspired to keep him out of the country and grumbled about the dangers of "populist and anti-market economy political forces". Most of the poverty reduction brought about by globalization happened in countries such as China that were strong enough to internationalize under their own terms. Countries like Haiti are either too weak to do that or the local elite has decided they'd rather serve as middlemen facilitating the plunder of their country on behalf of foreign interests.
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Mar 10, 2018 05:28
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Curious to hear what cabal of republican/blue dog senators forced Obama to fight against livable wages in Haiti.
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Mar 10, 2018 11:08
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Boon is apparently so owned by the sweatshop argument he had to bitch about it to the Trump thread:Boon posted:There is a crew of posters that flit from thread to thread slowly killing the threads. They're like strip miners. Once they kill a thread, they get tired of agreeing with each other and try to find a self-righteous argument elsewhere. Hey Boon, maybe if you didn't make godawful arguments showing your complete lack of morals, you wouldn't be as bothered by people being right when they argue against you.
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Mar 10, 2018 18:54
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Neurolimal posted:Curious to hear what cabal of republican/blue dog senators forced Obama to fight against livable wages in Haiti. Obama just wanted to make sure those Hatians had jobs, he had to defeat the evil labor organizers who were about to run off the put-upon Job Creators
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Mar 10, 2018 19:02
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WampaLord posted:Boon is apparently so owned by the sweatshop argument he had to bitch about it to the Trump thread: The part where he says "On the occasions where that doesn't work for them they will fall back to a 'safe' thread and post about how bad the thread they left is" is funny to the point where it's hard to believe he even typed out those words without realizing the irony.
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Mar 10, 2018 19:33
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The actual worst part of this forum are all the dishonest ghouls who have to turn every argument into some meta bullshit because admitting their actual opinions may make them feel bad about themselves.
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Mar 10, 2018 19:37
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Ya'll should invest in a (((Dishonest Ghouls))) gang tag so we can keep track of you
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Mar 10, 2018 20:16
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"If only I was a moderator, I'd set things right." - Boon, like twice every week.
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Mar 10, 2018 23:01
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That's a pretty funny post considering the Trump thread.
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Mar 10, 2018 23:14
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It's appropriate. This is the thunderdome thread afterall. Two men enter, one man leaves.
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Mar 11, 2018 00:25
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Ya'll should invest in a (((Dishonest Ghouls))) gang tag so we can keep track of you Can we be Dean Domino?
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Mar 11, 2018 01:58
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Oh it's the thread with no purpose, don't mind me. https://twitter.com/ReutersPolitics/status/973631033232056321 I'll just post this here as a permanent scar for however long we have.
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Mar 15, 2018 00:54
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gently caress your blue wave you imbecilic apes it means nothing if we're dead before it happens.
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Mar 15, 2018 00:57
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Office Pig posted:gently caress your blue wave you imbecilic apes it means nothing if we're dead before it happens. Wait, Pompeo and Haspel is where you draw the line? This is the thing you're gonna be pissed at? Also you get poo poo candidates when more left people stop showing up to primaries. Don't take this as an excuse not to come out for primaries.
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Mar 15, 2018 05:18
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Well, a literal actual torturer and the guy who supports reopening secret prisons are pretty good places to draw the line
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Mar 15, 2018 06:05
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joepinetree posted:Well, a literal actual torturer and the guy who supports reopening secret prisons are pretty good places to draw the line Well, no, it's that a man who has repeatedly petitioned Trump to attack North Korea is very likely going to displace someone who was, if nothing else, not interested in kicking off WWIII alongside John Bolton. Impossible as it seems the literal torturer feels like a footnote.
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Mar 15, 2018 06:25
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Also you get poo poo candidates when more left people stop showing up to primaries. Don't take this as an excuse not to come out for primaries.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:43
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Rent-A-Cop posted:gently caress legitimizing a rigged vote. Stay home and load magazines for the revolution.
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Mar 15, 2018 17:02
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