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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well yes, but what I'm saying is it doesn't matter that it's retroactive. It is completely secondary to the effect it has on play. You should keep 360s, much like last-hitting, because they are in fact good for the game. I don't know, I just find them discouraging and unenjoyable. I can do them, sure. I can also put Dodge on my character sheet to take the Prestige Class I want. That might even be a deliberate part of the balance of that Prestige Class. But it's unpleasant and it'd be pretty hard to convince me there isn't a better way.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:33
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Having high ceilings means you need to balance on the assumption that players will push the game to its ceiling. Otherwise, pushing the game to the ceiling will break the game, and while having a worse experience because you're bad at a game is unfortunate, having a worse experience because you're better at a game is a disaster. (In fact, I would go a step further and say that this is the only sensible definition of balance, but that's another topic and one that matters less here than it does in competitive gaming.) A training wheels class is a bad idea regardless of whether it's an "archetype" or not because almost inevitably there will be something unique or notable about the simple class that isn't present in its more advanced version, and as soon as you've done that you've created a situation where playing the thing you like badly hurts your ability to play well; the whole point of balance is to avoid this as much as possible. A better approach would probably be to have canned builds that the player can then deviate from when they feel up to it, along with robust tutorials and explicitly drawing players' attention to principles and decisions that will affect the power and feel of their character. e: also, a RAW process for respecs, please, even if it's just "character creation is fast and PC mortality is high" Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 03:35
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I don't know, I just find them discouraging and unenjoyable. I can do them, sure. I can also put Dodge on my character sheet to take the Prestige Class I want. That might even be a deliberate part of the balance of that Prestige Class. But it's unpleasant and it'd be pretty hard to convince me there isn't a better way. This is like saying rocket jumping in FPS games should just be a button you press.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:36
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Countblanc posted:This is like saying rocket jumping in FPS games should just be a button you press. I unironically believe this.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:37
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bewilderment posted:I unironically believe this. You should kill yourself IMO (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 11, 2018 03:38
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Countblanc posted:This is like saying rocket jumping in FPS games should just be a button you press. In a competitive game proving you're better at the game than the other guy is the whole point, plus you can learn to git gud at rocket jumping at almost any point you choose. This breaks down somewhat when you're playing a game that's co-op vs. environment, and you're committing to your choices for months at a time.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:39
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In a competitive game proving you're better at the game than the other guy is the whole point, plus you can learn to git gud at rocket jumping at almost any point you choose. This breaks down somewhat when you're playing a game that's co-op vs. environment, and you're committing to your choices for months at a time. Well yes, I was responding specifically to the execution requirement in fighting games. And this is coming from someone who isn't good at them - it's cool to me that there are things people have to practice at and execute reliably under pressure, just like someone would appreciate the same in any other dexterity-requiring activity. Obviously this is very different from system mastery in a purely turn-based cooperative experience like ttrpgs.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:41
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bewilderment posted:Imagine DnD5e's design goals (other than "appeal to grogs") but actually mostly functional, including rules that properly support gridless measurementless combat. That's 13th Age. It's also worth pointing out that by the time Next was in promotional playtest, all of their stated design goals had already been accomplished by 13A. The only reason it isn't widely accepted as the best D&D is that it doesn't have "Dungeons & Dragons" printed on the cover.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:44
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Isn't the entire selling point of 13th Age is that it's D&D without a grid? That's not "the best D&D" that's "a perfectly nice game that lacks one of the few both defining and positive traits of every version of D&D."
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Mar 11, 2018 03:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Isn't the entire selling point of 13th Age is that it's D&D without a grid? That's not "the best D&D" that's "a perfectly nice game that lacks one of the few both defining and positive traits of every version of D&D." You too
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Mar 11, 2018 03:46
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Countblanc posted:This is like saying rocket jumping in FPS games should just be a button you press. Rocket jump? That sounds dangerous.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:47
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Banana Man posted:What is lfqw? Also what is shadow of the demon lord and 13th age like compared to say dnd 5e? Like others have said, Shadow of the Demon Lord is a darker fantasy rpg. The designer, Rob Schwalb, wrote for both D&D 3e and Warhammer Fantasy stuff, and you can see a lot of elements blended into the game. 13th Age was a sort of simplified 4e D&D-alike from a couple of the 4e devs. Of the two, I'd say that SotDL does a better job on class design across the board, with a pretty simplified tiered progression (you can also just grab another class in the same or lower tier, if you want) and building up an experienced character in a way that feels satisfying without being too bloated. 13th Age's general class balance isn't terrible, but the fighting classes in the core book do struggle to be interesting compared to the casters, oftentimes. 13th Age's introduction of the escalation die during combat is great, though, and its icons are a cool idea that could use some more benefits to really make exciting. The escalation die is just a die you turn to a higher number as combat goes on, giving everone a +X to the roll, where X is the number on the die face. Often you get abilities that can't be used until the escalation die has hit a certain number, too. The icons are like major NPCs/factions in the game that might intervene in the story if certain results are rolled on the icon dice, but all of that is left uncomfortably vauge.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:48
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Which is why people probably get upset when you suggest upturning that apple cart. Just like the fighting game fans who lost their poo poo when I suggest that, say, a sequel to a popular fighting franchise might want to try discarding demanding mechanics like stances or 360 degree inputs. The community becomes so invested in things like buffering 360 degree inputs that they don't care that the 360 degree input was only put in because it mirrored the original move appearance-wise, and not because it was a particularly deliberate attempt to devise a functional mechanic for the ages. the gently caress popular fighting game franchise has both stances and 360s
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Mar 11, 2018 03:49
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Alaois posted:the gently caress popular fighting game franchise has both stances and 360s I haven't played Tekken in a while but I recall Hwaorang has both stances and also insane inputs. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Isn't the entire selling point of 13th Age is that it's D&D without a grid? That's not "the best D&D" that's "a perfectly nice game that lacks one of the few both defining and positive traits of every version of D&D." A massive amount of 4e hate is that it required a grid, which is why DnD5e doesn't have the minis-on-a-grid pics that the last two editions had. Nuns with Guns posted:13th Age was a sort of simplified 4e D&D-alike from a couple of the 4e devs. Johnathan Tweet was a lead on 3e, and I wouldn't call it a simplified 4e at all. It shares some bits of design but unless we call "decent power formatting" a type of game design now, it's not really the same thing. Like, a huge part of 4e is tactical positioning and flanking and so forth, something literally impossible in 13th Age. bewilderment fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 03:50
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I think it's also the case that when you pick a "low skill, low ceiling" character in DOTA 2, you're only playing that character for anywhere between 20 to 60 minutes. As you get better with the game, you can easily transition to a "better" character*. This is different in TTRPGs where there's this ugly and unpleasant trend of only playing the same character over weeks or even months, such that even after you're more comfortable with the game's mechanics, you're still playing a Fighter. The idea of a "beginner class" would be a lot more palatable if every game had a clause that allowed you to remake your entire character with zero restrictions after half-a-dozen hours of play or something. ________ * setting aside the fact that a lot of DOTA 2 characters are good enough to be played at the highest competitive levels, and that there's an order of magnitude more characters than there are classes.
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Mar 11, 2018 03:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Isn't the entire selling point of 13th Age is that it's D&D without a grid? That's not "the best D&D" that's "a perfectly nice game that lacks one of the few both defining and positive traits of every version of D&D." Insofar as every Captain Insano that ever pooh-poohed 4e did so because they bitched and whined about how they were now forced to use a grid as opposed to being able to play 3.5 for years without it (loving God knows how), for 13th Age to not require a grid is still Mission goddamn Accomplished
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Mar 11, 2018 03:53
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bewilderment posted:A massive amount of 4e hate is that it required a grid, which is why DnD5e doesn't have the minis-on-a-grid pics that the last two editions had. All versions of D&D require a grid.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:02
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I think we can all agree that 13th Age is the best narrativish D&D since BECMI.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:03
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BECMI is the game that encouraged you to designate one player as the official party mapper and to have a defined marching order
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Mar 11, 2018 04:04
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bewilderment posted:Johnathan Tweet was a lead on 3e, and I wouldn't call it a simplified 4e at all. It shares some bits of design but unless we call "decent power formatting" a type of game design now, it's not really the same thing. I'd call it simplified in that they abstracted the combat, removed skill challenges, cut down the level progression from 30 to 10, removed the skill list and replaced it with backgrounds, drastically cut down on the number of powers, removed the paragon paths and epic destinies in favor of tier talents, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. A lot of the changes in general seem to be a direct response to the assorted, and sometimes contradictory, complaints people had specifically against 4e, too. Fair point though, I misremembered what stuff Jonathan Tweet worked on.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:05
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13th Age is the only d20 game to have make feats work.Tuxedo Catfish posted:BECMI is the game that encouraged you to designate one player as the official party mapper and to have a defined marching order Having one player as mapper and another as quartermaster is absolutely a good idea and helps make the game move far smoother.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:08
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ProfessorCirno posted:Having one player as mapper and another as quartermaster is absolutely a good idea and helps make the game move far smoother. Oh, I'm not being critical, BECMI's my second-favorite version of D&D. I'm just a little confused by the implication that it doesn't make space and positioning pretty important. Maybe I misunderstood what Paolo was getting at.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:09
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I meant in terms of not putting as much emphasis on tactical combat and charop.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:18
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Thanks for the answers!
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Mar 11, 2018 04:19
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Isn't the entire selling point of 13th Age is that it's D&D without a grid? That's not "the best D&D" that's "a perfectly nice game that lacks one of the few both defining and positive traits of every version of D&D." I think this is the dumbest, most ahistorical thing I have ever seen anybody say about D&D.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:20
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gradenko_2000 posted:play 3.5 for years without it (loving God knows how) Because by the time you're done figuring out the Fighter's position the Wizard has ended the combat anyway.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:22
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13th Age has appallingly bad class design which commits just about every mistake mentioned in the course of the "beginner classes" discussion. Shame, since the core system is reasonably solid and the game has some neat ideas like the backgrounds and icons. The only bad thing I have to say about Shadow of the Demon Lord is that I'm too old for 90s maggotty poop humour, and the game assumes a lower in-fiction level of character power than I like. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 04:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:13th Age is the only d20 game to have make feats work. Spycraft 2.0/Fantasycraft would like a word.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:28
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Lemon-Lime posted:
Luckily you can excise most maggotpoop. By default the power level is a little low but you can make things more 'heroic' if you cut out the fear rules and also boost player health by like 10. You can also use alternate healing rules from Forbidden Rules.
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Mar 11, 2018 04:38
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NinjaDebugger posted:I think this is the dumbest, most ahistorical thing I have ever seen anybody say about D&D. Why, because people ignored the rules in order to play without a grid?
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Mar 11, 2018 04:42
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Why, because people ignored the rules in order to play without a grid? Because D&D and AD&D, especially, only ever mentioned grids in relation to wilderness travel, where they recommended using hex grids. Hell, AD&D used inches as its primary unit for using gridless wargame terrain, with inches being defined differently for indoors and outdoors. 2e didn't get actual gridded combat rules, as far as I know, until the Player's Option: Combat & Tactics book, which a lot of people didn't use, and is precisely why there was a huge loving revolt over 3e's mandate of an actual grid for combat. Wizards at the time were particularly incensed, because it meant they couldn't depend on the DM being nice about targeting anymore.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:02
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NinjaDebugger posted:Because D&D and AD&D, especially, only ever mentioned grids in relation to wilderness travel, where they recommended using hex grids. Hell, AD&D used inches as its primary unit for using gridless wargame terrain, with inches being defined differently for indoors and outdoors. 2e didn't get actual gridded combat rules, as far as I know, until the Player's Option: Combat & Tactics book, which a lot of people didn't use, and is precisely why there was a huge loving revolt over 3e's mandate of an actual grid for combat. Wizards at the time were particularly incensed, because it meant they couldn't depend on the DM being nice about targeting anymore.  Too true, no grid to be seen.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:08
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NinjaDebugger posted:Because D&D and AD&D, especially, only ever mentioned grids in relation to wilderness travel, where they recommended using hex grids. Hell, AD&D used inches as its primary unit for using gridless wargame terrain, with inches being defined differently for indoors and outdoors. 2e didn't get actual gridded combat rules, as far as I know, until the Player's Option: Combat & Tactics book, which a lot of people didn't use, and is precisely why there was a huge loving revolt over 3e's mandate of an actual grid for combat. Wizards at the time were particularly incensed, because it meant they couldn't depend on the DM being nice about targeting anymore. If you're distinguishing between grid-based and numerical distance-based tactical combat, then yeah, sorry, my bad. I'm used to using "gridded" as synonymous with tactical combat since I'm usually distinguishing between D&D and PBTA or something. That said, if I understand correctly, 13th Age uses theater of the mind combat, which is neither of those things, and more removed from either of them than they are from each other.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:10
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you're distinguishing between grid-based and numerical distance-based tactical combat, then yeah, sorry, my bad. I'm used to using "gridded" as synonymous with tactical combat since I'm usually distinguishing between D&D and PBTA or something. They are very different. Before 3e, the only reason anybody used battlemats was that it was easier and caused fewer arguments than people carrying around measuring tapes. 3e's mandatory gridded combat was a huge departure, including codifying line of sight and line of effect rules in order to cut down on annoying arguments. 13th Age uses engagement zones, which is basically the same thing fate uses, as I recall, and is a step away from the mother-may-I theater of the mind that was prevalent during 2e. The arc is essentially: Chainmail (full wargame) -> D&D/AD&D (wargame with option of not actually using terrain) -> AD&D 2e (no terrain/minis required with option of using them) -> 3e/4e (minis on a grid) -> 5e (back to AD&D/2e ish) NinjaDebugger fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 05:13
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 That's not page 15 of the B in BECMI, is it?  Wonder what's on page 33...  Oh, literally just a graph.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:14
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slap me and kiss me posted:
Those are used for mapping, not combat, you salmon. In combat, characters weren't actually bound by the grids, nor was it ever implied they were.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:17
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  Given in inches indeed.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:18
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Each of those squares is about 4 squares on a 3.0/3.5/4.0 map, and you aren't assumed to be standing one person to a square. Hell, you can have an entire fight happen in one square, since one of the standard encounters is 'one monster in a ten by ten room.' It's not a tactical battle map, it's a way to show scale on a dungeon map.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:19
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There were a couple of D&D -based board games, as I recall, that did the "Here is an actual gridded board you move around", Hero Quest style, though.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:24
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So it's played on a grid in the dungeon, movement is measured in 10' squares, spells are measured in 10' increments, but it's not based on a grid?NinjaDebugger posted:There were a couple of D&D -based board games, as I recall, that did the "Here is an actual gridded board you move around", Hero Quest style, though. Yes, like six posts up there's a photo of one. (it is in fact basic D&D)
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Mar 11, 2018 05:25
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