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slap me and kiss me posted:So it's played on a grid in the dungeon, movement is measured in 10' squares, spells are measured in 10' increments, but it's not based on a grid? They're using it idiomatically to mean "tactical combat", not literally to mean "involves a grid".
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Mar 11, 2018 05:29
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slap me and kiss me posted:So it's played on a grid in the dungeon, movement is measured in 10' squares, spells are measured in 10' increments, but it's not based on a grid? Seems more likely that's just a pre-made map, rather than being grid-bound tactical combat, given that if it's grid bound, you can fit all of 2 characters and a monster in a bunch of those rooms. (Not that that stopped hero quest sometimes.)
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Mar 11, 2018 05:30
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Did 3.0 even "mandate" you use a grid? Didn't it just give up the fiction that the rules weren't absolutely built around gridded/mapped combat?
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Mar 11, 2018 05:31
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NinjaDebugger posted:Seems more likely that's just a pre-made map, rather than being grid-bound tactical combat, given that if it's grid bound, you can fit all of 2 characters and a monster in a bunch of those rooms. (Not that that stopped hero quest sometimes.) quote:Because D&D and AD&D, especially, only ever mentioned grids in relation to wilderness travel, where they recommended using hex grids. That's my starting point, but you do you.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:31
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slap me and kiss me posted:That's my starting point, but you do you. Two posts before your first one on the topic, though: Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you're distinguishing between grid-based and numerical distance-based tactical combat, then yeah, sorry, my bad. I'm used to using "gridded" as synonymous with tactical combat since I'm usually distinguishing between D&D and PBTA or something.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:33
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The best tactical combat RPG is still Spellbound Kingdoms where the tactical options have nothing to do with moving on a map.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:37
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Mar 11, 2018 05:40
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AD&D combat was not assumed to use a grid. It assumed you used minis and a ruler, but even then, it wasn't that important. That's because pre-3e D&D was a dungeon crawler through and through (though this also gets more true the farther back you go; by 2e, it was trying to shed that a lot). Combat was to at least some degree a failure state. Combat didn't use a grid because combat was meant to be short. HP was way lower almost completely across the board, and saves worked in reverse - they started weak and ended strong, whereas now they do the opposite. That's because your wizards weren't using save spells at higher levels, they were glorified artillery - if they even used spells in combat. Saying "AD&D doesn't have tactical combat" is almost a nonsense statement because AD&D to some degree didn't have combat as we think of it, like, period. Combat was part of the dungeon crawling - it's divided into turns because you had to keep time. The longer you spent fighting, the more likely reinforcements would show up. Combat, again, was almost sort of a failure state - all risk, no reward. In other words, combat actually WAS just a small glorified minigame to the actual D&D experience of looting the gently caress out of this goddamn death dungeon. The dungeon had a grid, because the dungeon was what ACTUALLY mattered - and where most of the rules were focused. And that's not even touching on companions and the like. It really is hard to state just how much 3e changed poo poo while pretending otherwise. It absolutely was not "AD&D 3e." It was absolutely it's own new game. unseenlibrarian posted:The best tactical combat RPG is still Spellbound Kingdoms where the tactical options have nothing to do with moving on a map. Absolutely correct. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 05:46
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That Old Tree posted:Did 3.0 even "mandate" you use a grid? Didn't it just give up the fiction that the rules weren't absolutely built around gridded/mapped combat? I was about to post the screenshot of the "things you'll need" section of the 3e PHB when suddenly I remembered I've changed computers a lot since 2009.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:49
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slap me and kiss me posted:So it's played on a grid in the dungeon, movement is measured in 10' squares, spells are measured in 10' increments, but it's not based on a grid? Because comparing a dungeon map (which uses 10' squares for room sizes and travel distances in a dungeon) to a tactical battle grid is some seriously disingenuous bullshit.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:53
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theironjef posted:I was about to post the screenshot of the "things you'll need" section of the 3e PHB when suddenly I remembered I've changed computers a lot since 2009. There were a lot of people arguing that you didn't necessarily -need- a grid map for 3e combat, but it was definitely the default assumption of the rules.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:54
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TSR-era D&D did not "mandate" the use of a grid insofar as tactical combat didn't require it, and non-combat movement could be done with wargame-type ruled measurements. Dungeon maps tended to be gridded regardless because it was easier that way, but when Fireball says 10' radius, you could also use a ruler to determine that, and it's even a Murphy's rule that a Fireball become huge the moment you step outside the dungeon because the inch-conversion changes. When you got to 3rd Edition D&D, the grid became inescapable. That Old Tree posted:Did 3.0 even "mandate" you use a grid? Didn't it just give up the fiction that the rules weren't absolutely built around gridded/mapped combat? From specifically the 3.0 PHB:  that's Page 6. Now, every time this comes up, it's usually rebutted that it's only a "nice to have", especially compared to the language used by the 3.5 PHB:  that's Page 4 of the 3.5 PHB but to think that it's optional is ludicrous given the examples of combat given in the game:  page 116 of the 3.0 PHB  page 122 of the 3.0 PHB  page 123 of the 3.0 PHB I'm not going to comment on whether "grids" or "gridded combat" has "always" been a part of D&D, but: 1. grids and gridded combat was undoubtedly a part of 3rd Edition D&D 2. arguments by grogs about how 4e was the "first time" that grids and gridded combat was forced upon them are disingenuous ones 3. for 13th Age to not have grids is still thematically correct in the context of the game being some sort of "compromise candidate" in the post-4e era
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Mar 11, 2018 05:56
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ProfessorCirno posted:AD&D combat was not assumed to use a grid. It assumed you used minis and a ruler, but even then, it wasn't that important. That's because pre-3e D&D was a dungeon crawler through and through (though this also gets more true the farther back you go; by 2e, it was trying to shed that a lot). Combat was to at least some degree a failure state. Combat didn't use a grid because combat was meant to be short. HP was way lower almost completely across the board, and saves worked in reverse - they started weak and ended strong, whereas now they do the opposite. That's because your wizards weren't using save spells at higher levels, they were glorified artillery - if they even used spells in combat. Just changing rounds from 1 minute to 6 seconds was a bigger conceptual change to combat than anything any other edition did to combat imo.
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Mar 11, 2018 05:56
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ProfessorCirno posted:It really is hard to state just how much 3e changed poo poo while pretending otherwise. It absolutely was not "AD&D 3e." It was absolutely it's own new game. Zerilan posted:Just changing rounds from 1 minute to 6 seconds was a bigger conceptual change to combat than anything any other edition did to combat imo. A lot, and I mean a lot of what we'd come to know of 3rd Edition combat was adapted from AD&D 2e's Combat & Tactics. That probably didn't make the medicine go down any better if it wasn't a widely circulated/played/used book, but it was all there if you looked for it.
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Mar 11, 2018 06:03
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dwarf74 posted:Um, did you ever actually play Basic D&D? I grew up playing basic. It's not as sophisticated a grid system as something like 3rd and 4th, but it's gridded all the same.
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Mar 11, 2018 06:04
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Quote's not edit
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Mar 11, 2018 06:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards. It refers to the tendency for spellcasting classes to start out a little weaker than martial classes and then at some point rocket past them in power (and scope) at an accelerating rate. Meanwhile, spellcasters get spells, and as they level up, those spells scale up with their level, and they also get a wider variety of spells, that then themselves scale up. At first level, the fighter can hit mans with sword, and the wizard can cast Sleep, Grease, and Magic Missile. At 20th level, the fighter can hit mans with sword harder, four or so times, and the wizard can Sleep harder, Grease harder, Magic Missile quite a bit harder, and in addition to that *opens mouth and an unending torrent of spell descriptions pours out*
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Mar 11, 2018 07:16
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It's why having damage multiply by level for both wizards and fighters is a good idea from 13th Age
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Mar 11, 2018 07:17
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D&D should go back to its wargaming roots. A campaign should require system mastery of OCS and its associated design for cause requirements of careful maneuvering and the wizard should be denoted as a counter on a hex map with NATO artillery symbology. I should feel like I accomplished something when I finish the game, like a deeper appreciation of I want a real OSR, not this BS romanticized OSR that sheds its roots.
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Mar 11, 2018 07:57
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Chill la Chill posted:D&D should go back to its wargaming roots A wargame about setting up and maintaining a logistics train from the town to the wilderness to a dungeon's FEBA would unironically own. You'd start with caravans and caravan guards, then move to mule trains as you get to rougher terrain, then porters and torchbearers inside the dungeon itself. Moving through the dungeon costs food and water points, with more being consumed as the adventurers engage in fights. Hope you don't run out of a stockpile or else that [X] 4-3 Fighter counter is going to be flipped to its (0)-2 depleted side!
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Mar 11, 2018 08:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:Moving through the dungeon costs food and water points, with more being consumed as the adventurers engage in fights. Hope you don't run out of a stockpile or else that [X] 4-3 Fighter counter is going to be flipped to its (0)-2 depleted side! This sounds like Torchbearer but much more so, perhaps too much more so
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Mar 11, 2018 08:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:A lot, and I mean a lot of what we'd come to know of 3rd Edition combat was adapted from AD&D 2e's Combat & Tactics. That probably didn't make the medicine go down any better if it wasn't a widely circulated/played/used book, but it was all there if you looked for it. So 2E AD&D had the player's options books that were very polarizing and morphed into 3E and 3E had Bo9S (and Star Wars: Saga to be fair) that was similarly polarizing and morphed into 4E and 4E had Essentials which was, again, polarizing and turned into 5E we must now put bets on what 5E release will be turned into 6E.
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Mar 11, 2018 08:44
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Darwinism posted:So 2E AD&D had the player's options books that were very polarizing and morphed into 3E and 3E had Bo9S (and Star Wars: Saga to be fair) that was similarly polarizing and morphed into 4E and 4E had Essentials which was, again, polarizing and turned into 5E we must now put bets on what 5E release will be turned into 6E. Whatever it is, it will probably be buried in a megadventure
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Mar 11, 2018 08:55
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gradenko_2000 posted:A wargame about setting up and maintaining a logistics train from the town to the wilderness to a dungeon's FEBA would unironically own. You'd start with caravans and caravan guards, then move to mule trains as you get to rougher terrain, then porters and torchbearers inside the dungeon itself. Yeah that does sound pretty awesome. However, if any D&D+wargame enthusiast (therefore likely a grognard in the bad sense) ever got a hold of it, the Wizard would just be a one-sided 6-5-2 [⚫️] anyway. But the idea is great, especially if you end up modernizing it and the wizards end up doing medieval electronic warfare. 4e’s lazy-lord is an AABNCP 
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Mar 11, 2018 08:56
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Okay so after a lot of thinking: Pathfinder is better than D&D 5E, because I can play Pugmire on Pathfinder and not D&D 5E ERGO Pathfinder wins. Okay glad we were able to sort that one out at least.
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Mar 11, 2018 09:09
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Wake me up when we get to 9th edition, which will pretty much just be 4th edition on a hex grid.
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Mar 11, 2018 09:18
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Thranguy posted:Wake me up when we get to 9th edition, which will pretty much just be 4th edition on a hex grid. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/hexGrid.htm 
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Mar 11, 2018 09:25
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If they manage to make it balanced, they should call it, Mathfinder.
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Mar 11, 2018 09:28
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gradenko_2000 posted:Insofar as every Captain Insano that ever pooh-poohed 4e did so because they bitched and whined about how they were now forced to use a grid as opposed to being able to play 3.5 for years without it (loving God knows how), for 13th Age to not require a grid is still Mission goddamn Accomplished This is also one of the places casters won out over martials; "I have 150ft range, and it's a 30ft blast" was pretty easy to wrangle into "I can hit basically anything, and catch arbitrary numbers of monsters in that hit", whereas "I move 30ft a round, and have to be standing stationary next to things" was easy to pixelbitch. Part of that of course being that most people have a pretty lovely intuitive visualisation of distance past a few dozen feet.
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Mar 11, 2018 11:54
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The thing with the grids is that even when you weren't using a grid, there was still an implicit grid because that's how the system worked. Like any melee fight with 3 or more combatants.
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Mar 11, 2018 12:37
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The first time I played with someone who used a grid it blew my loving mind. I think I remember 2e making a big point about not needing all that stuff, but I could be wrong. It was probably always helpful either way.
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Mar 11, 2018 12:45
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Good news, FGC, Them Fighting Herds is coming and it's having simplified controls.
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Mar 11, 2018 12:52
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Chill la Chill posted:D&D should go back to its wargaming roots. A campaign should require system mastery of OCS and its associated design for cause requirements of careful maneuvering and the wizard should be denoted as a counter on a hex map with NATO artillery symbology. I should feel like I accomplished something when I finish the game, like a deeper appreciation of I hate this.
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Mar 11, 2018 13:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:Moving through the dungeon costs food and water points, with more being consumed as the adventurers engage in fights. Hope you don't run out of a stockpile or else that [X] 4-3 Fighter counter is going to be flipped to its (0)-2 depleted side!
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Mar 11, 2018 14:40
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More importantly, will you get this to GMT CDG this? I´m not kidding, I´d actually pay money for something like that!
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Mar 11, 2018 18:00
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Do I send money via P500 or Kickstarter? P500 via Yahoo! Email group.
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Mar 11, 2018 18:09
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:Spycraft 2.0/Fantasycraft would like a word. Still waiting for the Magic book to come out  
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Mar 11, 2018 18:56
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Darwinism posted:So 2E AD&D had the player's options books that were very polarizing and morphed into 3E and 3E had Bo9S (and Star Wars: Saga to be fair) that was similarly polarizing and morphed into 4E and 4E had Essentials which was, again, polarizing and turned into 5E we must now put bets on what 5E release will be turned into 6E. The TRUE sinister reason for their glacial update schedule - if they never release any books, none of them can become 6e!
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Mar 11, 2018 20:52
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Darwinism posted:So 2E AD&D had the player's options books that were very polarizing and morphed into 3E and 3E had Bo9S (and Star Wars: Saga to be fair) that was similarly polarizing and morphed into 4E and 4E had Essentials which was, again, polarizing and turned into 5E we must now put bets on what 5E release will be turned into 6E.
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Mar 11, 2018 21:29
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Comrade Gorbash posted:None. 5E is the last edition of D&D, in fact the last RPG, WotC will publish in house. In a couple years they'll chop the property up and license out the table top portion to someone (probably FFG). They'll keep the books, video games, and other media part for themselves because that's worth way more than the TTRPG. FFG will produce a revolutionary, interesting take on D&D with new mechanics. Grogs will pronounce it anathema. All of this has happened before...and all off this will happen again.
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Mar 11, 2018 22:25
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