|
Miftan posted:It's that unless they sign a pledge of allegiance and go kill other palestinians by joining the IDF or something? That might only apply to Israeli-arabs though. I can't recall exactly how demented he is. He's a genocidal maniac, but that doesn't mean he isn't center-right by today's standards.
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 18:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 06:45 |
|
|
Agag posted:He's a genocidal maniac, but that doesn't mean he isn't center-right by today's standards. I'll be honest with you, I don't even know what a 'centrist' politician is nowadays. All 'centrists' are unapologetic right wing capitalists on the economy. In Israel the only party that even resembles a 'left' party on the I/P issue is the United Arab List.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 18:20
|
|
|
Miftan posted:I'll be honest with you, I don't even know what a 'centrist' politician is nowadays. All 'centrists' are unapologetic right wing capitalists on the economy. In Israel the only party that even resembles a 'left' party on the I/P issue is the United Arab List. That's sort of what I'm saying. There's no functioning Israeli left at the moment. True of a lot of Western countries right now. In the fringes of the Likud coalition there are some real lunatics who openly say the wildest poo poo, so the prevailing hardline position doesn't look quite as extreme by contrast.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 18:40
|
|
|
Agag posted:That's sort of what I'm saying. There's no functioning Israeli left at the moment. True of a lot of Western countries right now. But that doesn't mean the centre has moved, or that Liberman is in it. Even if all of Israel is on the right or far right, just because Liberman isn't an actual neonazi doesn't make him a centrist.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 20:12
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:What's Lieberman's position on killing Palestinians, if it's anything short of "all of them, kill all of them" I can understand rating him as a centrist by KJI standards His position on killing Palestinians is significantly to the right of Netanyahu's, and he constantly criticized Likud and the IDF for not being mean enough to Palestinians - at least, until Bibi made him Minister of Defense, at which point he promptly shut the gently caress up and fell in line with existing defense policy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 22:44
|
|
|
R. Mute posted:The centrist party led by the non-centrist. Right. Okay. Given that the point is about whether or not they'd prefer to coalition with Yesh Atid over Likud, it does matter. We haven't established that Lieberman actually is that devoted of a rightist now. He said racist things from 2009-2012 and has since walked them back. If that's the standard, then fine, but Arafat, Abbas, Marwan Barghouti, etc... are disqualified. I thought we're actually trying to get a peace deal here though. I'm not saying he's a saint. Agag posted:He's a genocidal maniac, but that doesn't mean he isn't center-right by today's standards. He hasn't advocated genocide to my knowledge. He used to say horrific things about stripping citizenship and ethnic cleansing but has since stopped, and in fact reversed course. Main Paineframe posted:His position on killing Palestinians is significantly to the right of Netanyahu's, and he constantly criticized Likud and the IDF for not being mean enough to Palestinians - at least, until Bibi made him Minister of Defense, at which point he promptly shut the gently caress up and fell in line with existing defense policy. He's significantly to the left of Netanyahu now. He changed a lot as foreign minister.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 23:31
|
|
|
Not even a principled fascist. Shameful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2018 23:36
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Thanks for not arguing, hypocrite. You don't actually have an argument, given that he's repudiated a lot of what he previously said, which has had a long tradition in Israeli politics. He has spent the last few years feuding with Likud and threatening to bolt the coalition, and openly flirting with a Lapid government. While spending lots of time with Dahlan, Sisi, and gulf rulers. Kim Jong Il posted:Given that the point is about whether or not they'd prefer to coalition with Yesh Atid over Likud, it does matter. Nope!
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 02:24
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:He hasn't advocated genocide to my knowledge. He used to say horrific things about stripping citizenship and ethnic cleansing but has since stopped, and in fact reversed course. Just stop. If the best thing you can say about him is that it's been a couple of years since the last time he openly called for straight-up ethnic cleansing, then either he's utterly indefensible or you're doing a piss-poor job of defending him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 03:11
|
|
|
Miftan posted:But that doesn't mean the centre has moved, or that Liberman is in it. Even if all of Israel is on the right or far right, just because Liberman isn't an actual neonazi doesn't make him a centrist. Agreed. Center-right by current Israeli standards, far-right ethno-nationalist in a wider assessment. Kim Jong Il posted:He hasn't advocated genocide to my knowledge. He used to say horrific things about stripping citizenship and ethnic cleansing but has since stopped, and in fact reversed course. If you catch him on a good day he only wants ethnic cleansing, fair point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 03:20
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Just stop. If the best thing you can say about him is that it's been a couple of years since the last time he openly called for straight-up ethnic cleansing, then either he's utterly indefensible or you're doing a piss-poor job of defending him. This has nothing to do with what coalition he'll join, and again, he's done indefensible things in a context where nearly everyone has done indefensible things. Are there prominent members of Fatah who have not called for ethnic cleansing, made racist comments, or supported violence?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 03:52
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:This has nothing to do with what coalition he'll join, and again, he's done indefensible things in a context where nearly everyone has done indefensible things. Are there prominent members of Fatah who have not called for ethnic cleansing, made racist comments, or supported violence? What does the makeup of the Israeli governing coalition and the parties' position on the political spectrum have to do with Fatah? No matter how fast those goalposts move or how many false equivalences you throw, it's not going to change the fact that Lieberman is a right-wing politician and his party is right-wing too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 04:13
|
|
|
I haven't moved any goalposts, my original point was about electoral coalition math. Since you insist on going on a tangent about Lieberman's political positions (which are irrelevant, YB is for sale to the highest bidder), you're not going to ever have a peace deal without moderating people who used to be extremist. There has to be one consistent standard for everyone. Mahmoud Abbas is a former holocaust denier who still says wildly racist garbage regularly in his speeches. Should he be a pariah and his party excluded from politics?
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 06:30
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:you're not going to ever have a peace deal without moderating people who used to be extremist. There has to be one consistent standard for everyone. " I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” ― Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail Peace is bullshit, we want justice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 10:00
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:I haven't moved any goalposts, my original point was about electoral coalition math. You're completely mistaken, as usual.
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 13:12
|
|
|
"He's not a genocidal maniac! He's just an ethnic cleansing apologist. Also the powerless figurehead of the oppressed people have said mean things too."
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 14:19
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:I haven't moved any goalposts, Time to update that red text!
|
|
#
?
Mar 8, 2018 16:33
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:I haven't moved any goalposts, my original point was about electoral coalition math. There's not going to be any peace deal when the far right holds 57 seats in the Knesset and the left only has 32.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2018 14:16
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:There's not going to be any peace deal when the far right holds 57 seats in the Knesset and the left only has 32. And a lot of the "left" will fall in line during the last/next Gaza war too. Its never a matter of if, but only how enthusiastic you are, about dropping a bomb on a hospital or school.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2018 19:21
|
|
|
The only parties you could call left are Meretz and Hadash at this point. YB isn't far right, and Shas and UTJ, while reprehensible in their own ways, are harder to classify too. UTJ has serious anti-war elements but is anti-gay, anti-secular, etc... Shas is just another vehicle for political corruption, with more traditional, only sort of religious voters, but they do the will of Jewish mullahs (like Yosef when he was around.) They've swung back and forth between coalitions, with the far right Mizrahim being the main base of Likud. The math favors the center over the right IF voters can focus on one party. That will bring parties like Kulanu and YB along if they can finish first.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 04:03
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:The only parties you could call left are Meretz and Hadash at this point. YB isn't far right, and Shas and UTJ, while reprehensible in their own ways, are harder to classify too. UTJ has serious anti-war elements but is anti-gay, anti-secular, etc... Shas is just another vehicle for political corruption, with more traditional, only sort of religious voters, but they do the will of Jewish mullahs (like Yosef when he was around.) They've swung back and forth between coalitions, with the far right Mizrahim being the main base of Likud. Afraid you're again mistaken.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 04:10
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Afraid you're again mistaken. We have a really good emote for this! 
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2018 06:11
|
|
|
Lieberman, Bennet, and Netanyahu; Abbas, Bassem al-Tamimi, and Barghouti are all horrible people who crave war (despite what they say) and are impediments to the peace process. We'd all be better off without them. If you can't condemn all of them, you're part of the problem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 22:55
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Lieberman, Bennet, and Netanyahu; Abbas, Bassem al-Tamimi, and Barghouti are all horrible people who crave war (despite what they say) and are impediments to the peace process. We'd all be better off without them. Wait, what? Bassem al-Tamimi is a pacifistic peaceful protester who holds up Gandhi as a role model. It's straight-up dishonest to lump him in with genocidal radicals like Netanyahu and Bennett.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 23:38
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Wait, what? Bassem al-Tamimi is a pacifistic peaceful protester who holds up Gandhi as a role model. It's straight-up dishonest to lump him in with genocidal radicals like Netanyahu and Bennett. No, he's engaged in blood libels (organ harvesting edition), his "peaceful protests" are directly violent well over half the time, has said that throwing stones is a form of peaceful protest, and has stated directly that his goal is to cause a Third Intifada. He's a dishonest rear end in a top hat who quotes Gandhi and espouses nonviolence to please gullible westerners. His actions do not reflect his words.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2018 23:59
|
|
|
The violence of the oppressor and the oppressed: exactly the same. Spicy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 00:15
|
|
|
Throwing stones at tanks: violent Throwing bulldozers at houses: peaceful
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 00:22
|
|
|
Abbas has been the only thing keeping the IDF from having to do all its suppression of Palestinian militancy itself, and Barghouti has been in prison for almost a decade and a half. You chose all your exemplars of Palestinian extremism very poorly. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 00:24
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Throwing stones at tanks: violent When you think about it, shells belong on beaches anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 00:28
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:No, he's engaged in blood libels (organ harvesting edition), his "peaceful protests" are directly violent well over half the time, has said that throwing stones is a form of peaceful protest, and has stated directly that his goal is to cause a Third Intifada. "it is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to wrap cowardice in the cloak of non-violence"
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 01:10
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:No, he's engaged in blood libels (organ harvesting edition), his "peaceful protests" are directly violent well over half the time, has said that throwing stones is a form of peaceful protest, and has stated directly that his goal is to cause a Third Intifada. He posted an anti-Semitic thing on Facebook once, and violence has occurred at peaceful protests that Israeli forces like to "suppress" with live ammo. Clearly that puts him on the same level as Naftali "I already killed lots of Arabs in my life, and there is absolutely no problem with that" Bennett. Clearly he's obviously just as much of an obstacle to peace as Naftali "There is not going to be a Palestinian state within the tiny land of Israel" Bennett.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 01:11
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:He posted an anti-Semitic thing on Facebook once, and violence has occurred at peaceful protests that Israeli forces like to "suppress" with live ammo. Clearly that puts him on the same level as Naftali "I already killed lots of Arabs in my life, and there is absolutely no problem with that" Bennett. Clearly he's obviously just as much of an obstacle to peace as Naftali "There is not going to be a Palestinian state within the tiny land of Israel" Bennett. My statement stands. I don't really care who's the biggest obstacle to peace, I said they're all unacceptable and they are. They're on the wrong side of the line. You can crown Bennett number one on the list if it floats your boat, and you may dispute the specific figures I've chosen to populate the list but in general Likud, Habayit, Hamas and Fatah are all part of the same circle of right-wing retaliatory bullshit which justify each other's existence and prolong the conflict. No peace will be achieved while Likud, Habayit, Hamas and Fatah still exist.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 01:42
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:My statement stands. I don't really care who's the biggest obstacle to peace, I said they're all unacceptable and they are. They're on the wrong side of the line. It looks to me like you're lumping individuals and groups that favor peace in with groups that oppose peace, because you appear to define "obstacle to peace" as "doesn't match my personal political views" and because you get all your news from Israeli propaganda groups.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 01:54
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:It looks to me like you're lumping individuals and groups that favor peace in with groups that oppose peace, because you appear to define "obstacle to peace" as "doesn't match my personal political views" and because you get all your news from Israeli propaganda groups. You continue to prove my point, and if a single one of those parties ever actually favored peace, there would be peace.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 02:15
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:You continue to prove my point, and if a single one of those parties ever actually favored peace, there would be peace.  What??
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 02:17
|
|
|
A big giant red button with "peace" written on it in the middle of the Hamas headquarters in Gaza, gathering dust and cobwebs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 02:25
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:You continue to prove my point, and if a single one of those parties ever actually favored peace, there would be peace.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 03:10
|
|
|
Let me put it like this. All the Israelis my age grew up in fear of attacks like the Dolphinarium and Sbarro bombings, and the hundreds of other horrific attacks which have accomplished nothing else other than moving the Israeli zeitgeist in a more hawkish direction. I know you folx like to rewrite history to make the Israelis into mustache-twirling psychopaths who commit evil for no reason, instead of real people with justifiable fears who err on the side of their own safety and survival in a high-stakes situation, who have been shaped by events to be cynical. It is no surprise Israelis are so hawkish when dovishness has been punished instead of rewarded. Palestinians are not powerless, because they have the power to shape the Israelis' reaction to them, a power which they have rarely exercised for their own benefit. After the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, the Palestinian people could easily have rewarded Israel for taking a step in the right direction. By giving them peace in exchange for the land. Instead, Hamas took over Gaza and started firing missiles. The Israeli peace movement was humiliated and soon destroyed, its central tenet (land for peace) shattered. The hawkish right has been dominant ever since. You know those Israelis who say of Palestinians that "they don't want peace" and that war is "the only language they understand"? It would be nice if Palestinians had ever taken the opportunities they were given to prove those people wrong. (Conversely, I can name many instances in which Palestinian peaceful resistance has been recognized and rewarded by Israel, including Barghouti's ultimately successful prison protests last year.) And they still could: they could declare a "Gandhi year" or maybe just a peaceful protest year, since Gandhi was a dickhead where they completely cease all violent activity, including throwing rocks and punching soldiers, and do nothing but peaceful protests, unmarred by contemporaneous violence. A year in which few to no Israelis die at Palestinian hands, thus robbing the Israeli hawks of their best talking points and proving to the world that peace is possible from their end. A year in which not a single Palestinian death at Israeli hands can possibly be defended as justifiable by any stretch of the imagination. They'd have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I have a related and similar plan from the Israeli end, but it's far too long to get into right now but ask again later. It hasn't been tried yet, but to quote Muammar Gaddafi, that's because "both the Palestinians and Israelis are idiots." R. Mute posted:A big giant red button with "peace" written on it in the middle of the Hamas headquarters in Gaza, gathering dust and cobwebs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 03:54
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Let me put it like this. All the Israelis my age grew up in fear of attacks like the Dolphinarium and Sbarro bombings, and the hundreds of other horrific attacks which have accomplished nothing else other than moving the Israeli zeitgeist in a more hawkish direction. I know you folx like to rewrite history to make the Israelis into mustache-twirling psychopaths who commit evil for no reason, instead of real people with justifiable fears who err on the side of their own safety and survival in a high-stakes situation, who have been shaped by events to be cynical. It is no surprise Israelis are so hawkish when dovishness has been punished instead of rewarded. Palestinians are not powerless, because they have the power to shape the Israelis' reaction to them, a power which they have rarely exercised for their own benefit. אתה לא היחיד פה מישראל, אז תרד מהעץ ותפסיק להתבכיין. הדבר היחיד שיוצא לפלסטינים מהתנגדות לא אלימה ושיתוף פעולה בטחוני ישראל זה עוד ועוד התנחלויות ועוד ועוד טיהור אתני. מצד שני, הנסיגה מסיני באה לאחר הסכם שלום שהגיע לאן שהגיע כתוצאה ממלחמת יום כיפור, הנסיגה מלבנון לא באה עם שום הסכם שלום ושום גאנדי אלא מזה שנמאס לאנשים שחיילים מתים שם כל הזמן, וכנ"ל ההתנתקות. ישראל יכולה מהר מאד לשלוח מסר אחר, אבל זה לא קורה.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 04:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 06:45 |
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:And they still could: they could declare a "Gandhi year" or maybe just a peaceful protest year, since Gandhi was a dickhead where they completely cease all violent activity, including throwing rocks and punching soldiers, and do nothing but peaceful protests, unmarred by contemporaneous violence. A year in which few to no Israelis die at Palestinian hands, thus robbing the Israeli hawks of their best talking points and proving to the world that peace is possible from their end. A year in which not a single Palestinian death at Israeli hands can possibly be defended as justifiable by any stretch of the imagination. They'd have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I vaguely recall that it was Orwell who pointed out that Gandhi-like resistance is predicated upon the oppressors not arbitrarily shooting you in the face. The IDF treats Palestinians like our police treat African-Americans in America. Without coming from a place of moral superiority, it'd be a lot harder than you seem to think it would.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2018 04:13
|
|