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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:I vaguely recall that it was Orwell who pointed out that Gandhi-like resistance is predicated upon the oppressors not arbitrarily shooting you in the face. It's closer to how ICE treats immigrants, really, is what I hear from an immigration lawyer who's been in both places.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:17
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Nothing to lose except the fact that it's literally impossible and after its declaration its inevitable failure would just be used as further fuel of the impossibility of any solution where Palestinians still exist.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's closer to how ICE treats immigrants, really, is what I hear from an immigration lawyer who's been in both places. That sounds worse, but I'm not sure, because I'm not a target for either. Elucidate if you can spare the time.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:25
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:That sounds worse, but I'm not sure, because I'm not a target for either. Elucidate if you can spare the time. I'm not really sure of the details, as I'm not him, but things like indefinite detention, bare acknowlegement of habeas corpus if that, a separate, administrative quasi-judicial system, etc.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:29
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I'm not Israeli and my Hebrew is too terrible to embarrass myself with. You've confused the 1979 Sinai withdrawal with the 2005 Gaza withdrawal and dismantling of settlements. The return of Sinai does prove that Israel has been willing to trade land for peace. You say the Palestinians' peacefulness has never worked out. What peacefulness? What is the longest period of peaceful protests by Palestinians unmarred by violent incidents? You can't throw rocks and stab soldiers one week, have a peaceful protest the next, and expect everything to change in that one week. It takes time to wash off the stank of violence from your movement and establish that this is a period of peaceful protest. It simply has not been tried. I've seen way too many Palestinians try to grab Israeli soldiers' guns and walk away unscathed, too many Palestinians punch and kick cops and soldiers, and walk away unscathed, to entertain the idea that the Israelis are just as bad as the American police. In America, any of these would be automatic death sentences. The IDF has higher standards than the American cops.... low bar, of course, but that doesn't make it less true. They're simply not on the same level and it's ridiculous to assume that every oppressor everywhere is exactly the same. Don't you think that's a little convenient and facile?
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Mar 12, 2018 04:38
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Nameless_Steve posted:I'm not Israeli and my Hebrew is too terrible to embarrass myself with. You've confused the 1979 Sinai withdrawal with the 2005 Gaza withdrawal and dismantling of settlements. The return of Sinai does prove that Israel has been willing to trade land for peace. I didn't confuse them at all. The only thing that got Israel onto the negotiating table with Egypt was the October War. Saadat was trying to start negotiations beforehand, no dice. Same thing with the Oslo Accords, coming as they as a result of the first Intifada, combined with some US pressure. quote:You say the Palestinians' peacefulness has never worked out. What peacefulness? What is the longest period of peaceful protests by Palestinians unmarred by violent incidents? You can't throw rocks and stab soldiers one week, have a peaceful protest the next, and expect everything to change in that one week. It takes time to wash off the stank of violence from your movement and establish that this is a period of peaceful protest. It simply has not been tried. "Movement." So the Palestinians are a hive mind and until every single Palestinian is non-violent for at least a year you would consider them all accountable? Do you use any fraction of the same kind of standard for Israelis? Besides, a power differential allows you to cause harm without overt violence. You can, for example, scare off Palestinians as Israeli settlers take over their land. It's just unconscionable to analyze this issue as if Israelis and Palestinians are at parity.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:49
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Nameless_Steve posted:You say the Palestinians' peacefulness has never worked out. What peacefulness? What is the longest period of peaceful protests by Palestinians unmarred by violent incidents? You can't throw rocks and stab soldiers one week, have a peaceful protest the next, and expect everything to change in that one week. It takes time to wash off the stank of violence from your movement and establish that this is a period of peaceful protest. It simply has not been tried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_ceasefire But as we all know, there is no excuse trivial enough for Israel to engage in collective punishment, even if the justification was fabricated from whole cloth. But go ahead, keep dragging those goalposts.  edit: VVVVV so the First Intifada was an "attack" which was "launched" by Arafat, lmao ANIME AKBAR fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 05:08
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I didn't confuse them at all. The only thing that got Israel onto the negotiating table with Egypt was the October War. quote:Saadat was trying to start negotiations beforehand, no dice. Same thing with the Oslo Accords, coming as they as a result of the first Intifada, combined with some US pressure. Neither the Yom Kippur War nor First Intifada were launched with the idea of bringing Israel to the negotiating table, nor was that considered desirable at the time by Sadaat and Arafat when they launched those attacks. It's nonsense to characterize them this way. Besides, Israel was immediately willing to negotiate land for peace in the aftermath of the Six Day War, and the Khartoum Conference (and prompt Soviet rearmament/resupply of the Arab states) shattered all hopes of this. In no way was the 1973 war a deliberate attempt to lay the groundwork for Camp David 1979, and that was not a goal of the war. There's more to the story about rejecting Saadat's first peace offer, but it's the usual political bullshit and intrigues of diplomatic negotiation tactics. quote:"Movement." So the Palestinians are a hive mind and until every single Palestinian is non-violent for at least a year you would consider them all accountable? Do you use any fraction of the same kind of standard for Israelis? Besides, a power differential allows you to cause harm without overt violence. You can, for example, scare off Palestinians as Israeli settlers take over their land. It's just unconscionable to analyze this issue as if Israelis and Palestinians are at parity.
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Mar 12, 2018 05:37
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I think I remember them doing that for a good while. But obviously the brutal oppression is still happening
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Mar 12, 2018 05:43
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Nameless_Steve posted:Six years later? Saadat absolutely did, though. And Arafat had started setting up a Norwegian channel for dealing peaceably with Israel as early as the 1980's, which is why they ended up negotiating in Oslo. The Intifada wasn't even initiated by Arafat, but it did, both directly and through international pressure born from condemnation of its violent suppression of Palestinians, push Israel into negotiations it had refused to do for years beforehand. Maybe read up on your history before talking big about poo poo you don't understand.
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Mar 12, 2018 05:44
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Nameless_Steve posted:Palestinian leadership demonstrating that they can exercise control over the violence level of their people would improve their credibility in negotiations and the credibility of any peace plan in general. I'm not saying this is a prerequisite for peace, and it's not something that should be expected by Israel (and, yes, as I mentioned I do have a similar plan for Israel), but it is a bit of theatrics that the Palestinians could engage in to win support for their side, deflate hasbara, and decisively win the propaganda war. That might look something like this, from here: ANIME AKBAR posted:Well this one comes to mind: Didn't seem to work.
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Mar 12, 2018 05:46
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Lemniscate Blue posted:That might look something like this, from here: (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) E: In the post prior to this, I mentioned theatrics that Palestinian leadership could engage in to win the propaganda war. This was related. I apologize that it seemed so flippant and cruel without that context. I will try to always show I care about Palestinian lives in the future. When I said "let's see" I did not mean that I would enjoy seeing it, but rather that this would be one way to demonstrate they were a bona fide peace movement and to silence their critics. Again, I'm sorry for the confusion. It's entirely my fault. Nameless_Steve fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 06:12
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Nameless_Steve posted:Are you impressed by a few months of restocking their missile supplies and constructing invasion tunnels? I'm talking about actual peaceful protests. Let's see some self-immolations. yikes
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Mar 12, 2018 06:44
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Perhaps his plan for Israel is for them to supply the Palestinians with white phosphorus so they can set themselves on fire and save the Israeli air force the fuel, in a compromise towards peace* *pieces
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Mar 12, 2018 09:02
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Nameless_Steve posted:Are you impressed by a few months of restocking their missile supplies and constructing invasion tunnels? I'm talking about actual peaceful protests. Let's see some self-immolations. I know you're trying to be funny but it comes out as 'racist rear end in a top hat'. Anyway, even if a ceasefire were possible, do you think Israel wouldn't spin it as 'restocking rockets and buildings tunnels'? There's absolutely nothing the Palestinians can do to push for peace because they're not the ones with the massive power differential. The only thing they can do is resist so that Israel stops killing them and stealing their land because there's no peace and nobody is interested in maintaining international law in the west bank and gaza
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Mar 12, 2018 09:36
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Who, exactly, would be moved by a 'year of peace"? Which nations, which world leaders? Trump and the US obviously will not give a poo poo. The Israeli right will never be unjustified in their constituents' eyes, and you can bet that there'll be loads of evidence that the Palestinian "peace" is insincere. Amnesty and the like already recognize that the violence of an oppressed people lies at the feet of the occupiers, and the UN kind of does, but won't do anything while Trump is president. Who are you expecting to come to the rescue, specifically? NATO? Middle eastern powers? The Israeli left? China?
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Mar 12, 2018 10:13
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a year without any palestinian doing anything that anyone could construe as violent is such a ridiculously high standard that the entire "plan" is laughable
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Mar 12, 2018 10:18
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XMNN posted:a year without any palestinian doing anything that anyone could construe as violent is such a ridiculously high standard that the entire "plan" is laughable Do you remember the several months of peace that Israel rewarded with a devastating war?
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Mar 12, 2018 11:49
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Well, to be fair, that wasn't really a committed peace. One guy shot off a rocket, and I'm pretty sure several children threw rocks.
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Mar 12, 2018 12:02
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"If Palestinians really wanted peace, they'd just collectively suicide right there and then. That they stubbornly insist on existing shows that they crave war."
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Mar 12, 2018 12:10
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Cat Mattress posted:"If Palestinians really wanted peace, they'd just collectively suicide right there and then. That they stubbornly insist on existing shows that they crave war."
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Mar 12, 2018 14:48
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what if the palestinian authority gave every Israeli a unicorn, then the IDF would really look like arseholes when they bombed a crowded urban area
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Mar 12, 2018 15:53
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If all the Palestinians now alive were to lie down on a road in a line so that an Israeli tank could drive them all over, the Israelis would complain that they now had to spend a lot of time cleaning the treads afterwards and that this indicated an unwillingness to negotiate in good faith. They'd then say that perhaps if the Palestinians supplied the gas for the tanks, they'd maybe accept the plan, but they'd eventually renege on it, like they have with every single treaty they've made with the Palestinians from the start.
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Mar 12, 2018 17:51
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Let me know if I'm playing the 'everyone rush in to see who can make the most hyperbolic statement' game right: If the Palestinians cried out to Israel "please nuke us!" Netanyahu would say "okay but only if you pay for the nuke!"
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Mar 12, 2018 18:28
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Look on the bright side. It's possible, In the future, Israeli employees will take sensitivity training so they can feel the appropriate amount of guilt around their Palestinian subordinates. The training will last a whole day. First, a kindly grey imam will teach them about the Palestinian religion and creation myths. They will sing along to a DAM song, if they can stop giggling. They will play rubber dagger tag. Later they will go down to the parking lot, and a food truck will serve "Palestinian" food. They will shoot bottle rockets, and throw stress balls at cars. Each person gets a flecked headscarf to take home. I know it seems dark now but please don't give up hope. This would be the best day at work ever.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:06
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Sinteres posted:Let me know if I'm playing the 'everyone rush in to see who can make the most hyperbolic statement' game right: If the Palestinians cried out to Israel "please nuke us!" Netanyahu would say "okay but only if you pay for the nuke!" I'm trying to come up with something to tie this into Israel withholding Palestinian tax revenue and coming up short.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:17
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Sinteres posted:Let me know if I'm playing the 'everyone rush in to see who can make the most hyperbolic statement' game right: If the Palestinians cried out to Israel "please nuke us!" Netanyahu would say "okay but only if you pay for the nuke!" Not hyperbolic enough. If every single Palestinian transformed themselves into bricks for the third temple the Israelis would yet complain why they didnt stack themselves. Nameless_Steve posted:Are you impressed by a few months of restocking their missile supplies and constructing invasion tunnels? I'm talking about actual peaceful protests. Let's see some self-immolations. Because gently caress replying to this in good faith. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 19:20
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Preen Dog posted:Look on the bright side. It's possible, In the future, Israeli employees will take sensitivity training so they can feel the appropriate amount of guilt around their Palestinian subordinates.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:21
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Nameless_Steve posted:Are you impressed by a few months of restocking their missile supplies and constructing invasion tunnels? I'm talking about actual peaceful protests. Let's see some self-immolations. i am interested in peace, says man whose definition of peace is palestinians killing themselves
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Mar 12, 2018 19:31
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Preen Dog posted:Look on the bright side. It's possible, In the future, Israeli employees will take sensitivity training so they can feel the appropriate amount of guilt around their Palestinian subordinates.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:35
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:I vaguely recall that it was Orwell who pointed out that Gandhi-like resistance is predicated upon the oppressors not arbitrarily shooting you in the face. http://time.com/5095435/vic-mensa-palestine-israel-jerusalem/ quote:As with the black community in the U.S., the use of incarceration, racial profiling and targeting the youth as methods of control are heavily prevalent in the occupied West Bank. The main difference I see between our oppression in America and that of Palestinians is how overt and shameless the face of discrimination is in the occupied West Bank. As much as we ruminate on our metaphorical police state in Black America, martial law is a very real and tangible condition in Palestine. Thinking of the young men I saw being detained by the roadside, my mind floats to the story of Kalief Browder, a 16-year-old boy incarcerated for three years without trial in Rikers Island for allegedly stealing a backpack. Consumed by the cruelty that robbed him of his childhood, Kalief hung himself with a bed sheet two years after his release. In Palestine, I met children as young as 12 years old that had been detained by the IDF. At any given time, hundreds of Palestinian children are detained in Israeli prisons, many of them under the age of 16. It gave me chilling flashbacks to my earliest experiences with police as a black boy in America; officers forced us to the ground with pistols drawn for the common crime of mistaken identity. Don't know how this was published in the US. A black-mexican-palestinian event I was about to attend in STL was once blocked by ADL who convinced the venue to not host it and encouraged the police to monitor the event site. http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/missouri-palestine-pressure/ http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/establishment-exercises-privilege/
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Mar 12, 2018 19:41
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FlamingLiberal posted:The flaw in your example is the idea that there will be Palestinians in the future This is a common refrain here, but even I can't believe they're that helpless. Definitely in a stronger position than North American natives were. Has a culture ever been genocided to the last person? There are always some leftovers that assimilate, but keep their culture, if in name only. Good enough to lead the class. You got to stay positive for things to get better. Once Palestine is weak enough it will at least be possible to negotiate the whole reservation and token reparation arrangement in exchange for peace. Then the Is will still be fascists and Ps will still be victims but they can work together to grow shareholder value without the shooting and crying anymore.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:53
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:The IDF treats Palestinians like our police treat African-Americans in America. Without coming from a place of moral superiority, it'd be a lot harder than you seem to think it would. it reminds me of a quote that went something like "america should be grateful that black people want equality and not revenge."
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Mar 12, 2018 19:56
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Nameless_Steve posted:Are you impressed by a few months of restocking their missile supplies and constructing invasion tunnels? I'm talking about actual peaceful protests. Let's see some self-immolations. "If the Palestinians want us to stop killing them, they need to start killing themselves for us". Ok then. Preen Dog posted:Look on the bright side. It's possible, In the future, Israeli employees will take sensitivity training so they can feel the appropriate amount of guilt around their Palestinian subordinates. I laughed way too loving hard at this. It's depressingly dark, but also funny. Well done. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 21:10
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For me, the 'tell' was the 'story' about the Gaza Greenhouses. This is oft cited as 'proof' that the Palestinians don't want peace. But like an onion, as you peel the layers, it becomes clear how much lies and deceit are involved here. The Palestinians DID start to grow crops for sale, and those crops ended up rotting at the borders as Israel blocked the commerce. quote:Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project. http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propaganda-dehumanize-palestinians/
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Mar 12, 2018 21:21
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Is it possible for this thread to avoid the most blatantly obvious bait? I don't know if it's a true believer, E: Oh he's been at this a while, why the hell don't I recognize the username? The arguments are the same. Harik fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 21:57
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Nameless_Steve posted:It is no surprise Israelis are so hawkish when dovishness has been punished instead of rewarded. Pot, meet kettle. Hamas wouldn't have half the power it does if not for the fact that Fatah's strategies of peaceful negotiations have consistently failed to result in any progress at all. In any case, your "Gandhi year" suggestion just shows how ignorant you are about the history of colonialism - or, for that matter, the history of Gaza. Those kinds of ultimatums never work because they're completely one-sided; the power that imposes them doesn't have to abide by the conditions themselves and also reserves the sole right to decide what counts as a violation, and the target is typically a loosely-organized movement which doesn't have the centralized control necessary to essentially ban all violent crime in the region in which they operate for an indefinite period of time. They're just propaganda moves. For example, take the 2008 Gaza ceasefire. Although Hamas obeyed the ceasefire completely and also worked to suppress other groups not under their control, Israel routinely violated the ceasefire conditions and refused to fulfill the other conditions of the deal. In the face of more and more blatant violations of the ceasefire by Israel, Hamas finally called off the ceasefire, only for Israel to launch an all-out military offensive just a few days after the ceasefire was originally set to expire - so quickly, in fact, that the offensive was almost certainly in the planning stages during the ceasefire. In the end, it seems likely that the ceasefire was simply intended to establish a pretense for war, and that Israel never had any interest in maintaining it. Hell, even moving away from that state-level stuff, there's constant violence and harassment against Palestinians in the West Bank. Aside from the IDF's official harassment, such as its wide-ranging raids and detentions or its practice of responding to peaceful protests with live ammo, settler violence against Palestinian property and lives is a fact of daily life near the settlements, with the IDF standing by to respond to any Palestinian attempt at self-defense. Naturally, it's very rare for settler terrorism to even be investigated, let alone punished.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:58
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Main Paineframe posted:
Nameless_Steve posted:in general Likud, Habayit, Hamas and Fatah are all part of the same circle of right-wing retaliatory bullshit which justify each other's existence and prolong the conflict. No peace will be achieved while Likud, Habayit, Hamas and Fatah still exist. The pot and the kettle already met. Also let's talk about Fatah and the Martyrs' Fund which gives money to the families of cold-blooded murderers, including those who stab little girls sleeping in their beds. But that's their terrorist roots. Remember that Fatah was responsible for the Damour massacre where 500 Lebanese were lined up against the wall and shot, and the Coastal Road massacre and thousands of other vicious terrorist attacks, including as many as 2500 in a single year, before they reformed and became the corrupt illegitimate political party and bad-faith negotiation partner that they are today. Main Paineframe posted:In any case, your "Gandhi year" suggestion just shows how ignorant you are about the history of colonialism - or, for that matter, the history of Gaza. Those kinds of ultimatums never work because they're completely one-sided; the power that imposes them doesn't have to abide by the conditions themselves and also reserves the sole right to decide what counts as a violation, and the target is typically a loosely-organized movement which doesn't have the centralized control necessary to essentially ban all violent crime in the region in which they operate for an indefinite period of time. They're just propaganda moves. quote:Hell, even moving away from that state-level stuff, there's constant violence and harassment against Palestinians in the West Bank. Aside from the IDF's official harassment, such as its wide-ranging raids and detentions or its practice of responding to peaceful protests with live ammo, settler violence against Palestinian property and lives is a fact of daily life near the settlements, with the IDF standing by to respond to any Palestinian attempt at self-defense. Naturally, it's very rare for settler terrorism to even be investigated, let alone punished.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:23
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Nameless_Steve posted:paliprop 
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Mar 13, 2018 00:48
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What do you read, Steve?
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