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I dunno what the solution is but as a new player, even one familiar with past EUs, having all these features locked behind various, seemingly-unrelated expansions is pretty overwhelming and dumb. Advisor promotion? The mideast expansion. More user-friendly diplomacy? Uhhh, China! The three estates of France? Cossacks! Also does Random New World just suck? It seemed cool but every time I just get lovely island chains. Usually I sail all the way to the pacific before hitting anything cool and then have to backtrack and hunt down the tiny landmasses. It's basically if you took Indonesia and the Philippines and scattered their constituent islands between Bermuda and Hawaii. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 11, 2018 |
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Mar 11, 2018 20:34
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I dunno what the solution is but as a new player, even one familiar with past EUs, having all these features locked behind various, seemingly-unrelated expansions is pretty overwhelming and dumb. Advisor promotion? The mideast expansion. More user-friendly diplomacy? Uhhh, China! The three estates of France? Cossacks! That's why I just buy all the expansions when they come out. I like supporting Paradox. They make fantastic games.
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Mar 11, 2018 22:20
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deathbagel posted:That's why I just buy all the expansions when they come out. I like supporting Paradox. They make fantastic games. I don't disagree but I'm sure I'm not the only person who was in the situation of just not being able to play/follow dev diaries for a couple years. At that point it's overwhelming. Especially because paradox loves making music/unit art/portraits separate tiny DLCS which imo is legit unjustifiable and awful. If nothing else it clogs the gently caress out of the steam store.
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Mar 11, 2018 22:30
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I find it almost always useful and LOVE IT The key thing about promoting advisors is that if you promote a discount advisor from an event, they keep the discount.
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Mar 11, 2018 22:34
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Everyone feels that way at first. I felt that way when I first bought 3
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Mar 11, 2018 22:35
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remember as aztec that it doesn't have to be nahuatl vassals. you can snake over to the mayans and get like 4 there. you should be able to pretty much always have 5 vassals ready to go
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Mar 11, 2018 22:35
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I’ve found that by missing the last couple of expansions I can actually reduce my game time on this thing Regardless, there are so many great ideas now stitched into the game now I can’t imagine EU5 taking that long to form
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Mar 11, 2018 23:17
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Ah hmm all those gov type things look pretty good in CoC, been meaning to do a Persia run since I do like green. My last two games were Ottomans and Orissa/Bharat though so due for a Europe game. So ol' Rule Britania for now and CoC if it's on sale.
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Mar 12, 2018 00:06
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Also, EU4 seems to have a lot of the same problems that have existed since 2. AI France can simultaneously field tens of thousands of men in Spain, Sweden, and Egypt while somehow failing to take back Normandy. The entire army of Gelre will sail the seas to siege a backwater colony while their capital burns. Ming vacillates from useless to conquering Bohemia by 1500. Exploration and warfare are pure micro tedium. It's just loads of extra features without fixing any core mechanics. Merchants seem better? Meanwhile, they've added the flaws of CK2: each expansion leans on adding wacky new OP mechanics for someone specific that don't really mesh with the base game. So the only way to have fun and make use of the various gimmicks poo poo is to do a zillion variations of "byzantium, turn coptic, become georgia, become shia, become ottomans, become chinese emperor, become japanese, become a republic, become a nomad horde, become england, become the usa, become the holy roman empire, become prussia, become jainist, congrats now you have +1000 everything, start over because winning is still somehow too tedious" gimmick runs.
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Mar 12, 2018 00:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also, EU4 seems to have a lot of the same problems that have existed since 2. AI France can simultaneously field tens of thousands of men in Spain, Sweden, and Egypt while somehow failing to take back Normandy. The entire army of Gelre will sail the seas to siege a backwater colony while their capital burns. Ming vacillates from useless to conquering Bohemia by 1500. Exploration and warfare are pure micro tedium. It's just loads of extra features without fixing any core mechanics. Merchants seem better? U mad
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Mar 12, 2018 01:18
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I dunno what the solution is but as a new player, even one familiar with past EUs, having all these features locked behind various, seemingly-unrelated expansions is pretty overwhelming and dumb. Advisor promotion? The mideast expansion. More user-friendly diplomacy? Uhhh, China! The three estates of France? Cossacks! Yeah, you really need to grab one of the mods that forces large continents. Paradox had made noises that they'd keep working on it or adding more tiles, but they never did. 
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Mar 12, 2018 01:18
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Cheen posted:U mad He's not wrong
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Mar 12, 2018 01:28
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I dunno I still have fun just playing normally without trying to overly game-ify and min/max everything. I'm still sub 1k hours though.
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Mar 12, 2018 01:43
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appropriatemetaphor posted:I dunno I still have fun just playing normally without trying to overly game-ify and min/max everything. I'm still sub 1k hours though. Same. I honestly just enjoy blobbing as the Ottomans or colonizing as the English etc. 
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Mar 12, 2018 01:47
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Cheen posted:U mad They’re right, is the thing. And buying more DLC that exacerbates the issue is only rewarding them and putting off a potential EU5 that could fix some of these issues
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Mar 12, 2018 02:12
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I'm sure once the dlc stops hitting their targets they'll pop out the next game. In the mean time I'll grab it as long as it makes the game more fun for me.
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Mar 12, 2018 02:30
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You don't have to do everything in every game, though? The different DLC has kept stuff fresh for me since playing Ming is super different than playing France or whatever.
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Mar 12, 2018 02:51
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Don't get me wrong I like the game, but I really, really wish they'd tackle the critical issues that have existed since, at minimum, EU2 instead of adding 15 new mechanics for mongol hordes or whatever. Frex France is my favourite nation in this period. I'd love a France game that models some real problems, that makes the reign of Charles VII tough, where there's more than 20 years of "make mans, put mans at england and burgundy" before you become invincible and can do whatever you want. Make it rewarding to actually turn your feudal hellhole into a centralized superpower. Make it challenging to convince masses of frenchmen to turn Louisiana into an english-style settler colony. Give me a reason to play France into the 1700s. I still love playing France in EU4, there are a lot of fantastic changes, but it is pretty much just watching numbers go up but with a cool map attached. It's not just France, btw, one of the biggest, weirdest closet elephants in EU is how France, Castile, England, Austria, and friends just spawn as superpowers in the 15th century. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 02:53
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I like the EU series because it ISN'T groggy as gently caress, thanks.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:23
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A bit harder would be good. Never really played anything aside from normal difficulty though.
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Mar 12, 2018 04:26
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Senor Dog posted:I like the EU series because it ISN'T groggy as gently caress, thanks. you realize that 99% of strategy gamers, themselves a niche group, are like "yeah EU is so complex" me included, which is why I play total war mostly and happily bash my mans together. EU grogs it up and shits out nomadic shia byzantium colonizing south africa Stuff like exploration shouldn't involve the player manually driving around ships. I'd love to see a system where either, depending on tech, year, and national policy, either an explorer presents an expedition or I hire an expedition, with x goal, and they sail out and do their thing. That'd be less groggy micro and more fun. Same for a million different mechanics where EU requires way too much oversight. While somehow simultaneously having a shitload of mechanics that do almost nothing and can be safely ignored. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 04:27
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appropriatemetaphor posted:I dunno I still have fun just playing normally without trying to overly game-ify and min/max everything. I'm always amazed by how many people consider it unreasonable that other people like to play paradox's "grand strategy games" as, well, strategy games
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Mar 12, 2018 04:31
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:you realize that 99% of strategy gamers, themselves a niche group, are like "yeah EU is so complex" That's actually how exploration works (or close to it) with one of the DLCs, and for the record I agree with you on those being scattershot as hell. e: also funnily enough, I always felt like total war’s campaign stuff was far more complicated until warhammer simplified it. I actually still don’t click with the rome2/attila settlement management. feller fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 05:21
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Stuff like exploration shouldn't involve the player manually driving around ships. I'd love to see a system where either, depending on tech, year, and national policy, either an explorer presents an expedition or I hire an expedition, with x goal, and they sail out and do their thing. That'd be less groggy micro and more fun. Same for a million different mechanics where EU requires way too much oversight. While somehow simultaneously having a shitload of mechanics that do almost nothing and can be safely ignored. This actually is a DLC, Conquest of Paradise.
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Mar 12, 2018 05:21
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Senor Dog posted:I like the EU series because it ISN'T groggy as gently caress, thanks. I don't think immersion is inherently grog. The big thing Paradox games need right now is assymmetry.
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Mar 12, 2018 05:45
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For colonization, I feel like a lot of the micro would be solved by simply changing colonization from a province level to a state level. You could have it gradual, so you'd first get the province you targeted, but when it reached, like, the half or three quarters mark, it would start leaking into other provinces in the state. Even if it was just "target each province in a state before asking me to move the fuckers" it would still be better than the current one, except if you want to target all the coastline to lock out others I GUESS
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Mar 12, 2018 06:39
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A lot of things in general could be made better by moving them to the state level. I'm looking at you, claim fabrication.
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Mar 12, 2018 06:46
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EU has a steep learning curve for sure. I remember the first time I picked up EU 3 back in my WoW days and I just couldn't bring myself to devote enough time to figure it out since WoW sucked up most of my free time. Then when EU4 came out I was between jobs and lived with a friend who had played EU since the first one, he convinced me to try it out and I had tons of free time and no other games I was playing so I finally sat down and learned it all. Over the years, they've made some stuff a lot easier to learn and a lot easier to figure out like the game warning you that you might be triggering coalitions, or the simplified exploration that was mentioned a few posts ago. A lot of the added mechanics for different areas are great, because when you get bored of playing in Europe with the base mechanics, you can go learn the Horde mechanics or play in Asia and figure out how to deal with the Tributary system or the Shogunate, then travel over to America to learn how to avoid DOOM or figure out how to unite the Incans and defend against the inevitable European invasion. These things all add to the replayability of the game and are the reason that this is the one game in my Steam library with over 1000 hours played.
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Mar 12, 2018 17:11
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deathbagel posted:EU has a steep learning curve for sure. I remember the first time I picked up EU 3 back in my WoW days and I just couldn't bring myself to devote enough time to figure it out since WoW sucked up most of my free time. Then when EU4 came out I was between jobs and lived with a friend who had played EU since the first one, he convinced me to try it out and I had tons of free time and no other games I was playing so I finally sat down and learned it all. Added mechanics are cool, I just wish they'd tackle some of the issues that have persisted since EU2, my first pdox game. Agreed with Beamed, assymetry would go a long way. But like, just taking western Europe: Castile, England, and France are still monstrous superpowers from the start. I'd like mechanics that give them some difficulty to navigate. France should certainly be easy overall but it should have problems. At present, as always, France is basically as powerful as it was in the 18th century, but in 1444. Even old janky mods managed it- like in AGCEEP if you wanted to start as "France" you actually had to start as the Dauphiné, take event choices to manage the burgundians, and reconquer the entire north of the country from England and from your dumbass crazy dad, all while wrangling your vassals. But even still, 15 years later, in EU4 France is a monster from the start even if they never ever touch any of England's continental holdings. My main complaint though overall is that Paradox seems to focus exclusively on adding features to x, y, and z instead of updating the base game mechanics. Rapner posted:This actually is a DLC, Conquest of Paradise. Wait, I have that one and I've been manually sailing my explorers around like a buffoon and ignoring the home country. I must be missing something, how do I automate them? Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 19:22
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Wait, I have that one and I've been manually sailing my explorers around like a buffoon and ignoring the home country. I must be missing something, how do I automate them? It’s a naval mission. You can send them to explore any sea region, or the coasts of that sea region, within your colonial range.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Added mechanics are cool, I just wish they'd tackle some of the issues that have persisted since EU2, my first pdox game. Agreed with Beamed, assymetry would go a long way. Put an explorer on at least 3 heavies or trade ships, then select mission and choose Explore. Tell them which area to explore.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:32
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Deceitful Penguin posted:For colonization, I feel like a lot of the micro would be solved by simply changing colonization from a province level to a state level. moving all province management to a state level would be an improvement
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Mar 12, 2018 19:47
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Added mechanics are cool, I just wish they'd tackle some of the issues that have persisted since EU2, my first pdox game. Agreed with Beamed, assymetry would go a long way. I don't see how different countries having different levels of difficulty is a problem. If you are finding France too easy then don't play France, theres like 100 different countries of various power levels in Europe alone. If you are really craving that forming France experience though, you can pick them, release all the tags like orleans, bourbonaisse, etc, and then release and play as the one of your choice.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:55
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Remember when France started with a bunch of vassals and was even more overpowered? The nerf was to remove them all and give France some autonomy in the provinces.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:58
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:
Pretty sure it's in El Dorado
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Mar 12, 2018 20:05
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MrBling posted:Remember when France started with a bunch of vassals and was even more overpowered? The nerf was to remove them all and give France some autonomy in the provinces. Yep, vanilla EU4 France was absolutely a powerhouse above and beyond any other country in the game at that time. I remember just chewing through the HRE and not even caring about coalitions because they still couldn't touch me.
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Mar 12, 2018 20:25
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Firebatgyro posted:I don't see how different countries having different levels of difficulty is a problem. If you are finding France too easy then don't play France, theres like 100 different countries of various power levels in Europe alone. Different levels of difficulty isn't the problem tho I just think it'd be more fun to play one of the "recommended" historical countries in this history game and face actual, fun challenges. A strategy game should present strategy to the great powers and not relegate every tough decision to OPMs
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Mar 12, 2018 20:36
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You could pretty much play any of them other than France. Aside from Ming and the Ottomans it's the easiest nation in the game; you can get real challenges as Portugal, Burgundy... I forget the other recommended nations off hand but anyway. This seems like a really odd complaint. Alternatively, play on a higher difficulty. Not to say you haven't got valid complaints but the game has changed and improved an absolute shitload over the years, it's not just random bandaid fixes (although that has seemed to be the trend for the past year or so). Yeah Paradox haven't solved AI logistics stuff but getting that to function in a reasonable way is probably one of the single most complex problems that exists in strategy game AI programming so I think you should cut them some slack on that.
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Mar 12, 2018 20:51
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Burgundy is actually pretty drat buff in this version of the game, because your personal union dudes are super strong. It is pretty trivial to clown on France early on if you team up with Castille or Aragon.
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Mar 12, 2018 21:00
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Firebatgyro posted:I don't see how different countries having different levels of difficulty is a problem. If you are finding France too easy then don't play France, theres like 100 different countries of various power levels in Europe alone. I think he means more variety in how the stronger countries are handled. Like if they redid the vassal mechanics to make them tougher to handle or more detrimental. So you would start as France, but with all these shitlord vassals that you have to corral somehow and don't just give you a buff vassal-swarm right at the start (I assume that's how old OP France was). edit: Also speaking of vassals. I'm playing Austria for the first time and don't quite get it. Like should I be reclaiming imperial land from current HRE members every chance I get? I was doing that, but now all the electors have like -1000 and won't vote for me. Should I only use the imperial CB (whatever it's called) if an actual member state was eliminated? And personal unions, I get that you if you magically get your dynasty on someone's throne you can declare and fight a union war. How do you actually get your dynasty on their throne? Is there some method? I've got almost 1000 hours in the game and I've had a personal union on GB as Spain in my first game ever and then a union with Hungary in my current game. They just never come up! appropriatemetaphor fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 12, 2018 |
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Mar 12, 2018 21:03
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