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I would prefer to see them try self-immolation rather than immolating others, and it would also better fit the standards of "peaceful protest" that I'm struggling to define. Hence "try." Sorry that wasn't clearer. It's just interesting to me that in Palestine, "non-violent protest" looks like immolating other people rather than themselves, and you expect me to regard them the same as any other self-titled peace movement when they're easily the most violent and pathetic excuse for a "peace movement" in history. Who is the Palestinian MLK? Whose best-effort ultimately failed, proving the need to move beyond respectability politics? I think the one who comes closest is Issa Amro, whose prosecution I vehemently disagree with and who I regularly defend in Jewish and Zionist circles, saying that if every Palestinian were more like him there would be peace. Hamas stops firing rockets for maybe a few months one time and you expect lasting change in their perception and in Israeli policy? Even if the Israelis overlooked the 89 year old man stabbed to death by a Palestinian during the time of the ceasefire, or the Jerusalem bulldozer attack which injured 40 and killed two teachers and an air conditioner repairman, or any of the other attacks during this time, (granted, both Hamas and Abbas publicly denounced these attacks (words) but that doesn't mean that the attackers' families didn't receive Martyrs' Fund money (actions)) and kept up the diplomatic process while these unconscionable attacks continued-- it's not enough time. A few pages ago, when we were talking about the Olmert peace offer, you were telling me that six months was too short a period of time to flesh out a peace agreement, or to make any lasting changes in policy. Now you seem to think it's plenty. Make up your mind. But let's say they did plow forward with some sort of peace agreement or reforms during the ceasefire, ignoring these attacks. How cold should the bodies have been before the Israeli government proceeded with negotiations for a West Bank pullout? What is an acceptable maximum number of dead Israelis per month that the Palestinians can guarantee the Israelis? How many terrorist attacks simply can't be helped and are acceptable losses? What SHOULD Israel have done during this time?
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Mar 13, 2018 01:15
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none of the israeli peace offers have been in good faith.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:16
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:What do you read, Steve? I read everything and trust almost nothing. If you only get one side of the story on I/P, you're not getting the story at all. You have to be annoyingly thorough. Times of Israel and Haaretz are the most reliable for their coverage, but the op-eds often get ridiculous. I check al-Jazeera and the generally reliable MSM news sources like WaPo, NYT, BBC. I'm subscribed to Palestinian activists like Linda Sarsour, Nas Daily, and I regularly keep tabs on JVP, SJP, Mondoweiss, and Electronic Intifada but I don't trust them any farther than I can throw them until I can verify from a real source. But the best is through books and textbooks, by scholars whose academic credentials can be verified. There are very few rightwing zionist sources that I check regularly. Then there's whatever my Jewish or leftwing friend circles share with me.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:27
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Nameless_Steve posted:What SHOULD Israel have done during this time? Dismantled all illegal colonies and put an end to the occupation.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:39
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on one hand we have a nation state with overwhelming and undisputed military, political and economic superiority and on the other hand we have a nation-less people who build piss powered rockets and only have a measly 1 in 20 of their protest broken up with unjustified deadly force really going to have to crack the books to figure out who has the power here
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Mar 13, 2018 01:44
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Yes, they are a pathetically weak people living in squalor in the mysteriously shrinking land of their forefathers, but for some reason they really don't like Israel! Immense, disproportionate violence is the only way to solve this issue. Solve it every few years. E: no that's unfair of me to say like it's Steve's position. Immense, disproportionate violence is just how it has to be if the Palestinians will insist on resisting. It's unfair but as long as one Palestinian scares a settler, there is no alternative. ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 01:47
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sure the israeli public vocally supported an idf soldier for executing a helpless prisoner in cold blood, but if every palestinian, in all places and at all times, were just as controlled and collected as mlk then i'm sure things will turn out just as well for them as it did for him
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Mar 13, 2018 01:50
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Nameless_Steve posted:Who is the Palestinian MLK? Whose best-effort ultimately failed, proving the need to move beyond respectability politics? You do understand that under an expansionist Israeli policy, any effort will be made to undermine any credible Palestinian leadership that seeks to unify and liberate? As evidenced by support of Hamas in the 80s and later support and security agreements with Fatah in the post-2006 era.
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Mar 13, 2018 02:27
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Nameless_Steve posted:Who is the Palestinian MLK? Whose best-effort ultimately failed, proving the need to move beyond respectability politics? You know the reason why MLK, Gandhi, and Mandela are so famous is because they're the exceptions, right? They're heroes because to play that role requires both an extraordinary moral fortitude (MLK had his house bombed all the time, Mandela was in prison) and the capacity to lead. "Who is the Palestinian MLK" is like asking "who is the Palestinian Spider-Man"? gently caress off, how many radioactive spiders do you think there are to go around?
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Mar 13, 2018 02:45
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mlk was murdered.
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Mar 13, 2018 02:48
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Nameless_Steve posted:Remember that Fatah was responsible for the Damour massacre where 500 Lebanese were lined up against the wall and shot, and the Coastal Road massacre and thousands of other vicious terrorist attacks, including as many as 2500 in a single year, before they reformed and became the corrupt illegitimate political party and bad-faith negotiation partner that they are today. Yep, that sure is a thing that happened over four decades ago. Of course, if involvement in massacres several decades ago is a disqualifying factor for peace, then we might as well stop talking about peace, given Israel's past. Of course, I know what you'll say to that - you'll condemn Likud and Irgun and Haganah and all the rest, and say that the entire Israeli government shouldn't be lumped in with the crimes of those individual factions. The problem with that defense, however, is that you have absolutely no problem lumping a wide swath of organizations and groups into a single "Palestinian" bucket and claiming that all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of any of them. For example... Nameless_Steve posted:Hamas stops firing rockets for maybe a few months one time and you expect lasting change in their perception and in Israeli policy? Even if the Israelis overlooked the 89 year old man stabbed to death by a Palestinian during the time of the ceasefire, or the Jerusalem bulldozer attack which injured 40 and killed two teachers and an air conditioner repairman, or any of the other attacks during this time, (granted, both Hamas and Abbas publicly denounced these attacks (words) but that doesn't mean that the attackers' families didn't receive Martyrs' Fund money (actions)) What does a lone wolf attack by an unaffiliated East Jerusalem drug addict have to do with a Hamas ceasefire? What does a Fatah policy have to do with a Hamas ceasefire? You're blaming Hamas for things that have literally nothing at all to do with them. No matter how often you insist that we have to look at the Israeli parties with nuance and be careful not to apply the sins of one to any of the others, you've got absolutely no problem blaming every Palestinian organization for attacks committed by any ethnic Palestinian regardless of affiliation. All this talk about "lasting policy" is a smokescreen, too - it's just an attempt to distract from the fact that Hamas stuck to a peaceful agreement, and Israel broke it. You don't want to call attention to the fact that Hamas agreed to nonviolence, while Israel did everything they could to undermine it while using it as political cover for the invasion they were prepping. That's why you're pointing to totally unrelated acts of lone wolf violence as evidence that Hamas can't be trusted. That's exactly why holding Palestinians to total nonviolence as a precondition for peaceful negotiation with any of them is a joke - even if one Palestinian group lives up to that commitment, Israel will point to other Palestinian groups - or even to random crimes not tied to any organization - as an excuse to undermine it.
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Mar 13, 2018 02:48
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For someone so passionate about peace, this guy sure throws up a lot of caveats, terms and conditions before he'll even consider it.
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Mar 13, 2018 04:11
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Well this one comes to mind: Israel claimed that Hamas was digging a tunnel into their territory, and about to launch an attack. This, and your other example illustrate that sometimes Hamas does not have 100% control over all of its members, but that doesn't mean the incidents are completely unprovoked. quote:But as we all know, there is no excuse trivial enough for Israel to engage in collective punishment, even if the justification was fabricated from whole cloth. That started because of rocket attacks, not the kidnappings. There's a pretty clear record in the past 18 years of Fatah and Hamas aggression leading to horrible outcomes for Palestinians, including yes, lots of collective punishment. The West Bank post-intifada is hardly Xanadu, and is unacceptable in its own way, but that illustrates how difficult it is to de-escalate conflict, and how suicidal a third intifada would be. Miftan posted:There's absolutely nothing the Palestinians can do to push for peace because they're not the ones with the massive power differential. The only thing they can do is resist so that Israel stops killing them and stealing their land because there's no peace and nobody is interested in maintaining international law in the west bank and gaza This is nonsense. Hamas clearly benefits, Orwell-style, from permanent war with Israel. This fiction that they have no agency at all is a cop out meant to excuse all manner of bad behavior. Fatah, also terrified of losing power, continues to push for unrealistic demands outside of the international consensus. While that's standard negotiation tactics, it makes the Palestinian public far less likely to accept a realistic peace deal. Even if you agree with the maximalist Palestinian demands, there won't be any agreement without both sides making additional significant concessions.
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Mar 13, 2018 05:08
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Nameless_Steve posted:I would prefer to see them try self-immolation rather than immolating others, and it would also better fit the standards of "peaceful protest" that I'm struggling to define. Hence "try." Sorry that wasn't clearer. It's just interesting to me that in Palestine, "non-violent protest" looks like immolating other people rather than themselves, and you expect me to regard them the same as any other self-titled peace movement when they're easily the most violent and pathetic excuse for a "peace movement" in history. Again, in your scenario where the monolithic Palestinian people transform into MLK and Gandhi overnight and hold on to it for, say, a year, who will come to the rescue? Which nation/world leader is going to decide that Palestinians are human beings who deserve to not be ethnically cleansed, and has the political power to end the occupation?
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Mar 13, 2018 07:48
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I'm pretty sure it's impossible to keep teenagers from throwing poo poo at authority figures when they AREN'T actively being oppressed, your standard for peaceful protest is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
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Mar 13, 2018 08:25
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Nameless Steve loves the idea of dead Palestinians, it's not difficult to understand.
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Mar 13, 2018 08:59
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For the record, I was at those protest where according to Steve the IDF has good reasons to switch to live ammo. I spent every weekend there for a good 2 years. Not once has an IDF soldier been threatened by anything more serious than throwing a rock, and the response to that or coming too close to the fence (which is still about 200m at least from the next fence that the IDF is behind) has been gas grenades and firing live ammo into the air. To be fair I've never seen a soldier shoot live ammo with intent to kill.
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Mar 13, 2018 09:11
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Miftan posted:For the record, I was at those protest where according to Steve the IDF has good reasons to switch to live ammo. I spent every weekend there for a good 2 years. Not once has an IDF soldier been threatened by anything more serious than throwing a rock, and the response to that or coming too close to the fence (which is still about 200m at least from the next fence that the IDF is behind) has been gas grenades and firing live ammo into the air. To be fair I've never seen a soldier shoot live ammo with intent to kill. Intent to tickle?
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Mar 13, 2018 10:29
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Intent to tickle? Eh, dunno how much detail I can go into without mossad knocking down my door. Quick Google says not much so let's leave it at that.
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Mar 13, 2018 10:56
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Kim Jong Il posted:Israel claimed that Hamas was digging a tunnel into their territory, and about to launch an attack. Israel claims a lot of poo poo. Regardless, if preparing for war disqualifies you from being a partner for peace, then the IDF and the government of Israel ought to also be considered criminal terrorist organizations.
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Mar 13, 2018 11:00
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Miftan posted:Eh, dunno how much detail I can go into without mossad knocking down my door. Quick Google says not much so let's leave it at that. Blink twice if it's shooting to maim. Just keep your curtains open, I'll know
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Mar 13, 2018 12:00
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if israel ever made a good faith offer for peace they'd dismantle the settlements before even making the offer.
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Mar 13, 2018 12:20
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Kim Jong Il posted:Israel claimed that Hamas was digging a tunnel into their territory, and about to launch an attack. quote:That started because of rocket attacks, not the kidnappings. We really need a  that instead says "Liar!"
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Mar 13, 2018 12:46
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Groovelord Neato posted:if israel ever made a good faith offer for peace they'd dismantle the settlements before even making the offer. They'd at least freeze them. They could dismantle them after a peace deal, as happened with the Yamit region. That being said, that was way more of an explicit government program than most of the West Bank settlements, and did not grow as much before being removed.
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Mar 13, 2018 13:19
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i googled it for the hell of it and 65 percent of voters in a referendum were against sharon's gaza disengagement plan lol
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Mar 13, 2018 13:44
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Groovelord Neato posted:i googled it for the hell of it and 65 percent of voters in a referendum were against sharon's gaza disengagement plan lol There was no referendum on the disengagement plan, what are you talking about?
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Mar 13, 2018 13:46
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quote:Failing to gain public support from senior ministers, Sharon agreed that the Likud party would hold a referendum on the plan in advance of a vote by the Israeli Cabinet. The referendum was held on May 2, 2004 and ended with 65% of the voters against the disengagement plan, despite some polls showing approximately 55% of Likud members supporting the plan before the referendum. Commentators and the press described the rejection of the plan as a blow to Sharon.
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Mar 13, 2018 13:47
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I'm sorry, I'm used to the term "referendum" targeting the entire population. As the text you quoted states, they asked how many Likud members supported the plan. It's no coincidence that the Disengagement instigated the creation of a new party, Kadima, headed by Sharon.
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Mar 13, 2018 13:55
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I'm surprised there weren't any posts about the Palestinian PM motorcade being bombed in Gaza? Most think it was the work of rogue Salafists.ANIME AKBAR posted:And I've yet to see any actual evidence presented in favor of this theory (that the tunnel Israel raided was specifically for arms, or that Hamas was planning an imminent attack). The war didn't start immediately following killing the abducted teenagers, it followed the subsequent rocket attacks, so I don't know what you're going on about.
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Mar 15, 2018 01:54
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'm surprised there weren't any posts about the Palestinian PM motorcade being bombed in Gaza? Most think it was the work of rogue Salafists. Again, you are entirely mistaken. Speaking of Protective Edge, the State Comptroller came out with yet another report which covers it, including "lack of training on international law" and concerns about the Hannibal Directive, which apparently had several versions which were not consistently applied.
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Mar 15, 2018 02:03
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Once again you're both wrong, and have cited zero evidence for your fictitious claims. The abductions were on 6/12. The actual war didn't start for nearly a month. There was a month of escalation, and then after a gigantic barrage of rocket fire, Netanyahu announced Protective Edge officially citing the rocket fire.
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Mar 15, 2018 02:59
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Kim Jong Il posted:Once again you're both wrong, and have cited zero evidence for your fictitious claims. The bodies were found on the 30th, which was the key development. That day Netanyahu promised a tough response and within the week they were bombing tunnels in preparation for ground forces to move in.
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Mar 15, 2018 03:10
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Cat Mattress posted:Israel claims a lot of poo poo. Regardless, if preparing for war disqualifies you from being a partner for peace, then the IDF and the government of Israel ought to also be considered criminal terrorist organizations. They pretty much are. Israel as a country can go gently caress itself and I hope all we leave them on their own when all the old people supporting them die off. It's blatantly clear that they want to play the victims all the time while also stirring up poo poo as much as possible to their own ends and leaning on their tough friends to back up their bullshit, the obnoxious cliche high school popular girl of countries.
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Mar 15, 2018 03:41
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Volkerball posted:The bodies were found on the 30th, which was the key development. That day Netanyahu promised a tough response and within the week they were bombing tunnels in preparation for ground forces to move in. It's fair that they were a precondition for war, it doesn't happen without that inflaming public tensions. But I think the true casus belli were the rockets. There have been a lot of other high profile killings that didn't lead to war. Blazing Ownager posted:They pretty much are. Israel as a country can go gently caress itself and I hope all we leave them on their own when all the old people supporting them die off. You're exaggerating the extent that there are huge generational differences, and Israel is still wildly popular in the United States. quote:It's blatantly clear that they want to play the victims all the time while also stirring up poo poo as much as possible to their own ends and leaning on their tough friends to back up their bullshit Don't many countries do this? That pretty much describes Iran and Saudi Arabia's foreign policy to a T for instance. I think that approach is short sighted and creates long term blowback, but it's widely used.
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Mar 17, 2018 16:26
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Kim Jong Il posted:Don't many countries do this? That pretty much describes Iran and Saudi Arabia's foreign policy to a T for instance. Who are Iran's tough friends? Russia? China? India?
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Mar 17, 2018 16:38
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Kim Jong Il posted:Once again you're both wrong, and have cited zero evidence for your fictitious claims. A month of escalation by Israel. Of course Israel cited the rocket fire - they'd spent the previous four weeks doing everything they could to provoke some sort of pushback, such as arresting hundreds of people and engaging in dozens of airstrikes against Gaza (while deliberately concealing the deaths of the kidnapping victims so that they could continue their draconian crackdown), eventually leading Hamas to launch rockets for the first time in over a year. In any case, the actual reason for the war was neither the kidnappings nor the rockets - it was a Palestinian reconciliation agreement and unity government, the latter of which was formed just a month before Israel's invasion. Whenever Palestinian unity looks likely, Israel intervenes to undermine it in some way, and the invasion of Gaza was a textbook example - not only did it devastate Hamas territory and arrest most of Hamas' West Bank officials, but in the immediate aftermath, Israel offered Fatah significant perks that were designed to boost their influence in Gaza at Hamas' expense. Bibi makes sure to provoke a conflict or status quo shift whenever a Fatah-Hamas agreement looks likely, and while the kidnappings certainly made it easier for Netanyahu to lay down political cover for escalating things, the fact that it was the third invasion of Gaza in less than a decade suggests that Bibi hardly needed something like that in order to attack.
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Mar 17, 2018 17:52
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Kim Jong Il posted:But I think the true casus belli were the rockets. you really stick to a lie, even when you just obviously gotten proven to be a liar 
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Mar 17, 2018 17:59
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Nebalebadingdong posted:you really stick to a lie, even when you just obviously gotten proven to be a liar I really, really hope they're just a hasbarra troll because holy poo poo this dude must be absolutely insane otherwise
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Mar 17, 2018 18:06
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Kim Jong Il is a sincere apologist.
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Mar 17, 2018 22:06
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Prominent US Israel advocates urge PM to halt African deportation plan "Five staunch Israel supporters, including esteemed attorney Alan Dershowitz, send letter to Netanyahu imploring him to reconsider plan that will see illegal African migrants sent to Uganda or Rwanda, warning of the 'incalculable damage' it could have on Israel and Jews' 'moral standing.'"
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Mar 18, 2018 07:34
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