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Der Waffle Mous posted:Iirc didn't a lot of the CofD more or less stop referring to themselves as horror games? No. Though Demon shifted more into Dread and Tension, they still call themselves horror games. All from the intros. 'Vampire is a game of visceral drama and personal horror.' 'Werewolf is a game of savage violence and bloody horror.' 'Promethean is a game of body horror.' Mage doesn't mention it much but it is also a horror game.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:49
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Jade Mage posted:
its real and real big
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Mar 13, 2018 18:55
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Just got a backerkit email! Scion Hero text is out!
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Joe Slowboat posted:But ultimately their goals are to improve the world and the conditions in it so that humanity has a better chance of Awakening and unitin against tyrants who literally embody structural oppression. This doesn't mean they are fundamentally any good at it. quote:The only way you can argue that the Seers are no worse than the Pentacle with a straight face is if you think a society organized around racism, ignorance, and authoritarianism is no worse than one organized around humanism. It's not, intrinsically. If the one about all those bad things gives people universal health care and a basic income so that they love the system that oppresses them, and the others have a wank in the corner? Manifestly the oppressive dictators have done more for the quality of life of the world at large than the freedom fighters. The odds of this ever happening are basically nil, but nobody gives a poo poo about your ideals in a white room. If you don't make things better for people you aren't their friend just because you mouth prettier words. If the Pentacle never actually help, it doesn't matter if they are the only ones that *can* potentially help. They still aren't helping. And thus their stances are irrelevant, and they need to make way for something that will. In short
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Mar 13, 2018 18:56
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Jade Mage posted:
I love this, all of it especialy the loving Deifans and Godbloggers
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Mar 13, 2018 19:17
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Mulva posted:This doesn't mean they are fundamentally any good at it. And all of this discussion ignores the fact that the concept of the Exarch's didn't even seem to exist in the earliest Dark Era's age. The same went for the explicitly gnostic stuff and even watch towers and all the other usual supernal symbolism existing. Rather, there was a separate, far more pagan (and exploratory) symbolism going on that mages used to interact with the supernal. With the usual apostates that lived out in the wilderness outside mage society due to what passed for mage society being as exclusionary and dickish as ever. Which heavily implies that the Exarch's aren't so much existent dickish Atlanteans as much as it is a developing humanity impressing it's own worst tendencies onto the supernal. Ironically, in that scenario giving more people access to the supernal (Like the Silver Ladder's/Free Council's "We'll just give magic to everyone! What could go wrong?!" idea. I forget which group is for that.) is just likely to increase the number of problems. Since there's plenty of perfectly normal people out there that would happily leap at any chance to gently caress with their fellow human beings even without having magic super powers to do so. Hell, the Republicans have at least partially literally ran on that concept for the past 30-40 years. Taking it away from them so that no one can gently caress with people using magic or interfere with the world from a position on high however certainly at least clears the field so that humanity can progress free of their influence. Or failing that, just having an organized third faction unaligned with the Pentacle or Seers whose mission statement is nothing but "We'll loving kill you if you abuse your powers to gently caress with people and the world." would work. Basically, magic cops like The Dresden File's Wardens existing would go a long way to fixing a lot of the in character issues in the setting. What i'm saying is that hunters and banishers are cool and good when they're sane and just want to protect people from magical fireball slinging assholes. Mors Rattus posted:I love this, all of it 
Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 19:20
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Deifans write deific - fanfiction about gods and Scions, sometimes roughly based on their actual deeds. Deifans are kind of like cultists and kind of not, and can be reliable mortal allies for a Scion if you're okay with, well, the roughly fictionalized versions of you. Godbloggers and Godcasters are the mythic media - while the regular world is polite and studiously tries to keep the mythic at a slight remove, the journalists who can't get enough of it take to blogs and podcasts, as do some cultists, spreading their research or the propaganda of their faith or a mxi of the two.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:46
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Archonex posted:And all of this discussion ignores the fact that the concept of the Exarch's didn't even seem to exist in the earliest Dark Era's age. What? They absolutely do, in fact one of the adventure hooks is explicitly "the General is busy inventing war, get up in his wizard business."
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Mar 13, 2018 19:55
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Mors Rattus posted:Deifans write deific - fanfiction about gods and Scions, sometimes roughly based on their actual deeds. Deifans are kind of like cultists and kind of not, and can be reliable mortal allies for a Scion if you're okay with, well, the roughly fictionalized versions of you. There's nothing better than getting a PC to the point where people follow you around and make up extremely wrong accounts of your adventures.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:57
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Not to mention literally everything in that era is set in the backdrop of "there used to be a completely different history and literal physical chunks of it are lying around, also the Gods are running around on Earth because someone kicked them out of their thrones."
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Mar 13, 2018 19:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:What? They absolutely do, in fact one of the adventure hooks is explicitly "the General is busy inventing war, get up in his wizard business." The hook sort of implies that it's a time travel gimmick. The war spirits have weaponry 'of styles that will not be seen for centuries yet.' It also seems like this is an alien thing, not part of the world, but having been thrust into it.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:59
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I was about to say, yeah - the Dark Era I developed has a friggen Exarch in it. As for saving the world, the Order that guards against existential threats is actually... The Seers. Somewhat counterintuitively, but the Exarchs don't want an apocalypse. In either the colloquiel meaning or the literal "revelation". Some Pylons get stuck on Bound-Guarding duty, but anything Big and Serious threatening all of reality will get Ochemata up in its poo poo. This being Mage, the main source of potential apocalypses is non-Seer archmasters. Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 20:01
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While I agree that objective reality is not necessarily more innately moral, I do think there's a moral value to truth, for the simple reason that truth defines the scope of action available to an individual. So I more or less agree with this: Ironslave posted:Truth isn't inherently good, though. At least, not as it's been presented in the game so far, but nothing says it can't be the way it actually works in your game. Magic's been traditionally depicted as utterly amoral, ascension is itself uncaring how you accomplished it, and there's good reason to believe a lot of the Bound wouldn't make the world better for people if they were restored to the Supernal. The Exarchs themselves are supernal symbols, potentially just as True as anything else (the entire idea of them being atlantean archmages being true or false may or may not hold sway over someone's opinion on that). The Truth encompasses charity, mercy, and murder. However... Someone who is deceived cannot make decisions freely; the whole point of the Lie is to confine human potential away from what we might choose to do had we the choice. (And also I think that using the demicanonical historical period writeups as arguments that the subtitle 'a game of gnostic horror' is wrong is, uh, methodologically unsound at the very least, so I'll go ahead and assume gnosticism is true. For one thing gnosticism as a concept hadn't been invented yet in the stone age, so it's no surprise that mages then lacked the vocabulary for it; nonetheless, unless you're arguing that the tuberculosis bacillus killed nobody until it was discovered, gnosticism can absolutely be true even if mages haven't discovered it yet.) Mages aren't the most sinned-against in the current order of reality, whatever the Mysterium thinks; Sleepers are. The Sleeping Curse makes Sleepers weak and vulnerable to the cruelty of mages, and also vampires, and also Exarchic entities of all sorts, and also just... everything. Humanity cannot even conceive of the threats it faces, let alone act to deal with them. Knowledge is power, not usually in a literal sense, but in that one cannot act on something one knows nothing about. The idea that the only measure we can use is 'does this disrupt people's lives, if so it's bad' is a bad metric, because the status quo is imprisonment and disempowerment. Sleepers cannot fundamentally change the world on their own; they can change society, they can change history, but the nature of the world enshrines tyranny. That's not going to go away unless Mages do something about it, and if you think that's less horrifying than mages just being unnecessary addicts... I don't think we have compatible senses of horror. Also uh Mulva posted:It's not, intrinsically. I'm just going to double back here, is your argument 'fundamentally oppressive injustice is bad because for reasons entirely distinct from its fundamentally oppressive nature it makes people unhappy, but if it made the trains run on time, that would be fine' because... I don't know if that's the most morally bankrupt or least comprehensive sense of oppression I've ever seen. News flash: The misery of the oppressed is not an incidental quality of oppression. It is a necessary result. Especially when the oppression in question is literally the acts of gods constituted by that misery and oppression.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:01
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@Dave Brookshaw: Makes sense, the ideological basis of the Seers is "Eh, the Lie's better than any of the alternatives" and I'm not seeing how a collapse of the Lie could occur without cosmology-redefining consequences.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:03
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Jade Mage posted:
TO THE INTERNET! Oh, wait. Still, exciting!
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Mar 13, 2018 20:04
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Warthur posted:@Dave Brookshaw: Makes sense, the ideological basis of the Seers is "Eh, the Lie's better than any of the alternatives" and I'm not seeing how a collapse of the Lie could occur without cosmology-redefining consequences. I think the actual ideology of the Seers is 'the Lie's better than the alternatives for me in particular" The 1e book literally says that no Seer of any meaningful rank still holds on to altruistic delusions, because nobody who serves the Throne believes they're doing it for humanity rather than themselves or their gods.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:09
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:What? They absolutely do, in fact one of the adventure hooks is explicitly "the General is busy inventing war, get up in his wizard business." The vinca era pretty much had none of that from what I recall. Though maybe I guess i'm mis-remembering it? That's the earliest chronological era that's been depicted. Or at least, that I know of. Did I miss something? Edit: Right from the intro text: quote:The Sundered World is the story of the Awakened and the Uratha of the Neolithic era around 5500 to 5000 BCE, in a time before history, metallurgy, and the hegemony of humanity. The Awakened of this time are simply the “Wise,” and lack the deep, mystical culture of mages that will one day span the globe. No Seers of the Throne demand obedience to distant Exarchs, and no Pentacle demands mages hide their magic from the Sleepers for the sake of their souls. Though, maybe that's meant to infer that Mages just don't know they exist yet? Given other setting specific stuff I assumed it was more that they didn't really exist as a concept until later on. The General sort of comes off more as being more of a ridiculously powerful spirit concept. The words "war-spirit" are even used to describe it and the things associated with it. Though I guess it could be called an Exarch or an agent of them if you wanted to go with a more supernal focus. Archonex fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 20:13
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Archonex posted:The vinca era pretty much had none of that from what I recall. Though maybe I guess i'm mis-remembering it? That's the earliest chronological era that's been depicted. Or at least, that I know of. Did I miss something? Dave Brookshaw posted:I was about to say, yeah - the Dark Era I developed has a friggen Exarch in it. Also note that what you quote specifies that there are no Seers of the Throne, not no Exarchs. That's a big difference! Seers are not the cause of the Exarchs, but their priesthood. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 20:19
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"So the paradox is, that it's much easier to imagine the end of all life on earth than a much more modest radical change in the Sleeping Curse." Also, weren't we just talking about what would be involved in ending the Lie in precisely these terms? I'm just saying, props to this.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:21
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Mors Rattus posted:Deifans write deific - fanfiction about gods and Scions, sometimes roughly based on their actual deeds. Deifans are kind of like cultists and kind of not, and can be reliable mortal allies for a Scion if you're okay with, well, the roughly fictionalized versions of you. This is fantastic. Also, now i'm picturing some godling clutching his skull and bemoaning the terrible state of his religion as he discovers they've been writing Twilight level slashfics about him and his worshipers. Edit: Dave Brookshaw posted:Yeah, you're missing the story hook about the General. Makes sense. Consider me enlightened then.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:25
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Yeah, you're missing the story hook about the General. The Seers of the Throne don't exist until the 17th Century. Of course they're not in the Vinca era, but the Exarchs do.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:25
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Dave Brookshaw posted:The Seers of the Throne don't exist until the 17th Century.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:40
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My woof players are amazing me all over again. The irraka player's downtime post consisted of her tracking and tailing the two cops who were working the the white nationalist gang the pack ran up against last chapter. Super anxious for the kill, she used her air bending powers to make their patrol car air tight and block the exhaust. Of course, when the driver passed out from CO poisoning, the car crashed into some pedestrians, injuring some kids in the process too. They player, who has the monster bone, went all in on self loathing and how her desire to kill and impatience pushed her over the line where innocents were hurt.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:46
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I still like the idea that Eye cults were basically involved in everything that led to the publication of 'Seeing Like A State' but only because that book is pretty much the Eye's memoirs. My favorite detail for the Eye is that it's a combination of panoptic state surveillance, authoritarian vision that reduces all people to subjects understood through what is measurable, and the Eye of God objectivity that reduces all other subjective perspectives to illusions. The Eye is a good Exarch, in the sense that they are a God of Tyranny whose concept really feels like a gut-punch to think about.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:47
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'm just going to double back here, is your argument 'fundamentally oppressive injustice is bad because for reasons entirely distinct from its fundamentally oppressive nature it makes people unhappy, but if it made the trains run on time, that would be fine' because... I don't know if that's the most morally bankrupt or least comprehensive sense of oppression I've ever seen. News flash: The misery of the oppressed is not an incidental quality of oppression. It is a necessary result. Especially when the oppression in question is literally the acts of gods constituted by that misery and oppression. See, here's the problem: You are talking in ideals. Like oppression as if it's an abstract, or misery as a quality that only exists in descriptions. Here's the thing: Practicality trumps idealism, every single time. Idealism is useful for driving practical change and nothing else. I'm going to say that the United States Government is objectively pretty racist in a whoooole lot of it's policies, and it certainly works for oppression in a lot of ways too. I'm also going to say it's objectively about a billion times more helpful to the world at large than some randos humanist group in the basement of a coffee shop. Morally the humanist group might have some fairly pristine ideals, and the US just bombed some hospital full of war orphans and went "lol", but that doesn't actually do anything for the practical level of misery in the world. Your ideals, your truth, doesn't save anyone. Saving someone saves them. If the evil bastards save someone, and you just talk about what they did wrong, the person saved is better off with Big Evil than listening to you. The Pentacle may have idealism on their side [And then again listening to the Silver Ladder for five minutes or running into the Guardians, they may not], but that's about all they have. The Truth will not save you. There is no intrinsic value to being right if you can't parley that into effective action. The Pentacle has failed to even meaningfully impact the world in thousands of years. Nobody can truly say that all the conflicts they've had with the forces of the Exarchs in all the lifetimes of struggle haven't just been another wheel in their hamster cage intended to keep them distracted. Maybe they really are fighting, but maybe they aren't. You don't know, they don't know. You have an ideal. You think it matters. What if it doesn't? What if literally all you can do is say "The Exarchs, being forces of evil, are evil". Ok, so what? So what if the universe is run by evil gods if you can't change it? If all you are going to do is thrown stones at their invincible fortresses, your acknowledgment of reality is not helpful. The moral thing to do, no joke, is to Ascend a Banisher. If in thousands of years the status quo has effectively not changed, the moral action is to take the path that *everyone* fears. And maybe reality goes pop, but change from the inside hasn't seemed to matter. Maybe that's the only good thing we can do, tear it all down and hope whatever popped us up the first time happens again. Maybe the next batch will do better. Standing by and tut tuting about how bad the bad guys are is just another form of submission. A real stand is bodies on the gears. As they say, if nobody is free the machine will not be allowed to operate.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:08
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Mulva posted:See, here's the problem: You are talking in ideals. Like oppression as if it's an abstract, or misery as a quality that only exists in descriptions. Here's the thing: Practicality trumps idealism, every single time. Idealism is useful for driving practical change and nothing else. I'm going to say that the United States Government is objectively pretty racist in a whoooole lot of it's policies, and it certainly works for oppression in a lot of ways too. I'm also going to say it's objectively about a billion times more helpful to the world at large than some randos humanist group in the basement of a coffee shop. Morally the humanist group might have some fairly pristine ideals, and the US just bombed some hospital full of war orphans and went "lol", but that doesn't actually do anything for the practical level of misery in the world. Your ideals, your truth, doesn't save anyone. Saving someone saves them. If the evil bastards save someone, and you just talk about what they did wrong, the person saved is better off with Big Evil than listening to you.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:13
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Mulva posted:I'm also going to say it's objectively about a billion times more helpful to the world at large than
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Mar 13, 2018 21:15
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Are you proposing that the Supernal needs an outsider to drain the swamp?
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Mar 13, 2018 21:20
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Mulva posted:
Mhm. Mhm. Ok, let's just consider this: What version of history are you aware of where nothing has changed in thousands of years, and also where the US government has 'objectively done more net good than a random group of humanists' ? If the US govt has done meaningful net good, it's because of the medical and agricultural technology that allows for international aid, and the vague dedication to democracy that supposedly drives it. Both of which are massive changes in the status quo since the start of history. Hell, the Free Council stands for both, and they joined the Pentacle in 1900. The Pentacle's side of history is on the move; they're not winning yet, but society is no longer ruled by kings, for one loving thing. That's not to say I think all revolutions are the work of wizards, but it's certainly the case that the Exarch's servants want to ensure no change occurs that actually matters, so we can fairly assume the Pentacle has at least run interference on them. Also, by your argument, the only point at which it was moral to join the ANC in South Africa was 199-loving-2. Going into exile? Training cadres? All a waste! 70 years of fighting for an end to apartheid, when really we should all strive to be FW De Klerk. EDIT: 
Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 21:26
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Yawgmoth posted:lol if you think the us gov is helpful to anyone with less than seven 0s in their net worth especially now It is probably a fair point to say that material culture is an important part of what makes people able to live and thrive even if you condemn materialistic excess and consumerism, but the idea that the choice is "present day system, at most with very marginal tinkering" or "gently caress it blow it all up" is pretty hilarious. How do you know the Silver Ladder would not, given the chance, institute fully automated luxury mage communism - easily!
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Mar 13, 2018 21:37
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Nessus posted:fully automated luxury mage communism - easily! I believe around these parts we call that Hieraconis, and write extensive fanfiction about it. (The Silver Ladder splatbook is a gift that keeps on giving)
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Mar 13, 2018 21:41
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Nessus posted:Only seven? You may be low-balling.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:50
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The mages who know the world is fundamentally unjust and must be destroyed and remade are the ones in the Pentacle. The mages who think there is no practical difference between Pentacle mages and Seers are called Seers.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:55
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I am very happy with the FAQ in Hero on cultural sensitivity and the choices we make in character design.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:58
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As someone with no experience with Mage as either player or ST, I love magechat. It's very entertaining to read through these arguments without a stance one way or the other.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:01
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Xinder posted:As someone with no experience with Mage as either player or ST,
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Mar 13, 2018 22:05
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EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A METAPHYSICAL CONCEPT INTO THE SLOT. ITS THE LIE AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I START DOING THE MOVES ALONGSIDE WITH THE MAIN CHARACTERS, THE EXARCHS. I DO EVERY ROTE AND I DO EVERY ROTE HARD. MAKIN WHOOSHING SOUNDS WHEN I ENFORCE DISEMPOWERING IDEALS OR EVEN WHEN I MESS UP TECHNIQUE. NOT MANY CAN SAY THEY ESCAPED THE SUPERNAL REALM. I CAN. I SAY IT AND I SAY IT OUTLOUD EVERYDAY TO PEOPLE IN THE TEMENOS AND ALL THEY DO IS PROVE PEOPLE IN THE ASTRAL PLANE CAN STILL BE IMMATURE JEKRS. AND IVE LEARNED ALL THE ROTES AND IVE LEARNED HOW TO MAKE MYSELF AND MY ONEIROS LESS LONELY BY SHOUTING EM ALL. 2 HOURS INCLUDING WIND DOWN EVERY MORNIng
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Mar 13, 2018 22:07
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Joe Slowboat posted:Both of which are massive changes in the status quo since the start of history. Not really. Rome was poo poo in a lot of ways, but also pushed a lot of advancement. That's the name of the empire game, whole lot of terrible with some incremental change for the better. All of which ultimately haven't effected the status quo of "Power is power, and the powerful oppress the weak". Which is the Supernal Truth behind the Exarchs. quote:Hell, the Free Council stands for both, and they joined the Pentacle in 1900. Again, you consider standing a useful thing. It's not. It's just a thing. You stand for change, ok, now change something. quote:The Pentacle's side of history is on the move; they're not winning yet, but society is no longer ruled by kings, for one loving thing. No, it's ruled by Presidents and CEOs, and sometimes they are both. You've changed the name, the Supernal Truth behind them is the same. You think people like Trump and Putin and Xi Jinping are meaningfully different than Kings? quote:Also, by your argument, the only point at which it was moral to join the ANC in South Africa was 199-loving-2. Going into exile? Training cadres? All a waste! 70 years of fighting for an end to apartheid, when really we should all strive to be FW De Klerk. See, you are again confusing idealism with reality again. The ANC, even when Swart banned them in the 60s, actually was doing things and making a difference. You consider standing for the right idea the same as actually impacting the world, and so put yourself in the position of actual revolutionaries just because you think you are morally correct. It doesn't work that way. It's never worked that way. Now you aren't failing just because you haven't instantly won, as long as you are doing something. Changing hearts and minds, working a strategy for success, bleeding the enemy, even keeping them from total control. The Pentacle can't actually say it's doing any of that. Or rather it can say it's doing some measure of that, it just can't actually show it. Which brings us back to idealism. You believe in what they are saying even without evidence. Nessus posted:How do you know the Silver Ladder would not, given the chance, institute fully automated luxury mage communism - easily! It's not a question of "would", it's a question of "could". If you reject the idea they can win, what is the point of what they could do?
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Mar 13, 2018 22:11
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Joe Slowboat posted:Someone who is deceived cannot make decisions freely; the whole point of the Lie is to confine human potential away from what we might choose to do had we the choice. (And also I think that using the demicanonical historical period writeups as arguments that the subtitle 'a game of gnostic horror' is wrong is, uh, methodologically unsound at the very least, so I'll go ahead and assume gnosticism is true. For one thing gnosticism as a concept hadn't been invented yet in the stone age, so it's no surprise that mages then lacked the vocabulary for it; nonetheless, unless you're arguing that the tuberculosis bacillus killed nobody until it was discovered, gnosticism can absolutely be true even if mages haven't discovered it yet.) This wasn't even what we were talking about or what I've been saying, so I'm baffled as to why it's here. Joe Slowboat posted:Mages aren't the most sinned-against in the current order of reality, whatever the Mysterium thinks; Sleepers are. The Sleeping Curse makes Sleepers weak and vulnerable to the cruelty of mages, and also vampires, and also Exarchic entities of all sorts, and also just... everything. Humanity cannot even conceive of the threats it faces, let alone act to deal with them. Knowledge is power, not usually in a literal sense, but in that one cannot act on something one knows nothing about. The idea that the only measure we can use is 'does this disrupt people's lives, if so it's bad' is a bad metric, because the status quo is imprisonment and disempowerment. I'm not arguing philosophy. I'm saying that the Pentacle is not "good" or heroes in any broad sense (save only in contrast to a bunch of other people who look at Mussolini as a role model), mages are the monsters in this gameline about playing monsters, and that the Truth is not inherently a positive thing.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:18
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Hold up a sec. Are you arguing that because the Pentacle has not won yet as of Day Zero: Your Game Begins, it cannot win?
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Mar 13, 2018 22:21
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Ironslave posted:This wasn't even what we were talking about or what I've been saying, so I'm baffled as to why it's here. I'm just holding the position that even if the truth isn't itself a moral framework, there's a moral value to making people aware of truth. Otherwise Sleepers are disempowered forever. Only mages can do that in a gnostic setting. That's all- they may be monsters but they are also the last vestiges of hope for human freedom. Which says a lot more of horror than the idea that mages are just all awful people. Edit: also, mea culpa, I combined responding to your point that the Truth in Mage is not a moral framework with responding to the earlier discussion about whether or not the Gnosticism in the setting should be taken as inherent or paradigmatic. That probably threw the whole thing off. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 22:29
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