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ulmont posted:...and before that I'm influenced constrained with new systems and claims. There is no time period where I have enough spare influence to make productive use of Mastery of Nature, which was my point. You go straight from claiming territory to building habitats? You need star fortresses for that, which is pretty far down the tree, especially if you're spending all of your influence before that expanding (jacking up your tech costs). Habitats cost 100 influence as well, how are you handling that influence cost? If your answer involves waiting for minerals (because you need 300+ minerals a month to be influence limited), then you could apply the same strategy to saving influence for mastery of nature. The only way I can come up with your scenario is to be constantly fighting vassalisation wars. If you're not constantly fighting you can save up 100 influence, if you slow down system claiming slightly you can save 100 influence (system claims are 75 base), if you're claiming territory in wars you have planets to take instead of habitats. A small tall empire that isn't going over the starting couple planets wouldn't want mastery of nature, but that is because you'd only use it a few times, not because of the cost.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:07
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ZypherIM posted:You go straight from claiming territory to building habitats? You need star fortresses for that,
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Mar 13, 2018 20:09
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Also if you can't afford the Ministry of Culture when they offer it, you can buy it at any time later on by contacting them. Oh my loving god
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Mar 13, 2018 20:20
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ZypherIM posted:You go straight from claiming territory to building habitats? Yes. New empty systems, claims on neighbors, gateways, habitats, in roughly that order. I've written this 3 times so I don't know what your problem is with reading comprehension. ZypherIM posted:Habitats cost 100 influence as well, how are you handling that influence cost? I'm spending all my influence on habitats, leaving none left over for Mastery of Nature. This is and has been my point: there is always something else I would rather spend my influence on than activating the Mastery of Nature edict, so I think it's a pretty bad perk. ZypherIM posted:if you're claiming territory in wars you have planets to take instead of habitats. Seriously, dude. ulmont posted:I hate Mastery of Nature now because I am perpetually influence constrained between new systems, claims, gateways, and habitats. Yes, I can spend my influence on new systems, claims, gateways, or habitats, and I never have enough left over for Mastery of Nature.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:21
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mastery of nature is better in a 2x tech/unity game, as the slower pace means you pile up just enough extra influence to use the edict everywhere. not having any tiny bad planets that feel like a drag on your empire while still settling everything in sight feels good, but yeah it's not really useful at the 1x pace.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:27
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So, what causes late game slow down? Occupied planets or the number of empires/occupying planets? I guess my question is: would a game on huge with four empires run faster than a similarly sized game with 16? I got an empire to close to end game on a huge map and the game is just running unapologetically slow for me right now... I guess I could play on a large or medium size, but I want my grand strategy to be grand!
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Mar 13, 2018 20:30
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Also if you can't afford the Ministry of Culture when they offer it, you can buy it at any time later on by contacting them. Oh my god how did I never know this 
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Mar 13, 2018 20:36
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:So, what causes late game slow down? Occupied planets or the number of empires/occupying planets? I guess my question is: would a game on huge with four empires run faster than a similarly sized game with 16? I got an empire to close to end game on a huge map and the game is just running unapologetically slow for me right now... I guess I could play on a large or medium size, but I want my grand strategy to be grand! number of things going on, in general. so extra AIs is extra overhead, but large empires are worse than small empires for performance. however, the game is effectively unplayably easy with anything but the max number of AIs for the map size due to their anemic expansion abilities. huge has issues even with max AIs as sometimes big empty spaces will still be free for the taking by the player just due to lucky positioning. if you want to have fun doing stuff other than building outposts, you've got to start out with a relatively small area to yourself so that you can't peacefully outbuild the AI.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:50
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Mastery of Nature should be an energy edict. Yeah it'll become a token cost late game, but I think that's fine?
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Mar 13, 2018 21:07
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Splicer posted:Mastery of Nature should be an energy edict. Yeah it'll become a token cost late game, but I think that's fine? That'd probably be a good change. It'd be hindering in the early game which is fine because the perks are mainly useful in the early game and while it becomes chump change late game the perks aren't as relevant
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Mar 13, 2018 21:10
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Splicer posted:Mastery of Nature should be an energy edict. Yeah it'll become a token cost late game, but I think that's fine? Also there should be more food edicts. There are a lot of problems with food, of course, but one of them is that you increasing the surplus through technology multiple times and have nothing that you can do in exchange (other than the opportunity to tediously redevelop all your planets to reduce surplus, if you want).
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Mar 13, 2018 21:12
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Speaking on Ascension Perks, what does "Consecrated Worlds" actually do? I cant find anything on the Wiki and I keep forgetting to save a game when I have an open perk slot to try it. Also I think the second Psionics Ascension Perk is bugged re: pops in colony ships - I have a colony I think that was in the middle of transit in the colony ship or developing on the planet when I popped that APerk and now those pops are not Psionic.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:27
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Also I think the second Psionics Ascension Perk is bugged re: pops in colony ships - I have a colony I think that was in the middle of transit in the colony ship or developing on the planet when I popped that APerk and now those pops are not Psionic. It is. But you can go to the species screen and set that leftover species to "Assimilate" and they will be converted to Psionic pretty quickly. Note that they will not produce resources while Assimilating, so if you turn your dominant-by-population-but-not-actually-primary-species over to Assimilate you can expect things to suck for a while.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:32
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Speaking on Ascension Perks, what does "Consecrated Worlds" actually do? I cant find anything on the Wiki and I keep forgetting to save a game when I have an open perk slot to try it. Consecrated Worlds unlocks a planetary edict, Consecrate World, which lasts for 100 years unmodified, and gives 5% happiness, 15% growth speed and unity, and 25% spiritualist attraction. It's a hella good place to spend influence if you have a lot to spare, but it costs like 250 or 300 or something, so it can kneecap expansion if you're incautious with it.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:35
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You know, I typed a lot of stuff and it boiled down to you're avoiding the crux of my argument (early game usefulness), along with saying "I don't want to budget influence on this" is the same as "I'm unable to budget influence on this" (you're spending 100% of non-empire edict influence on war claims). Depending on your circumstances (planets, neighbors), mastery of nature can be a big boon early that falls off later. If you want to take a stand of "I think the influence cost for the tile gain isn't worth a perk" that is fine, but claiming to be unable to budget it in is bullshit (1.33 systems or 2 claims at base values). Is there math I'm unaware of showing habitats as better than planets (last I knew habitats' strength was not requiring a planet, not that they were better)? Consecrated Worlds is a planet based influence edict, it costs 300 influence, lasts 100 years base, gives +5% happiness, +15% growth speed, +15% unity, +25% spiritualist attraction.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:37
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Jazerus posted:number of things going on, in general. so extra AIs is extra overhead, but large empires are worse than small empires for performance. If I were to guess, I'd say it's related to pop numbers, though something is weird about that too. In my current 400 star galaxy game I have the single biggest empire both in area and population, there are also 12 AI empires remaining. it takes about 8.5-9 seconds to do a full month at max speed. If I tag switch to a different country and let the AI play my old empire, it only takes about 6.5 seconds to finish a month at full speed. So letting the AI play the biggest empire by far makes the game go faster than if I'm playing it myself, which seems... counterintuitive. Especially considering that the AI must find everything I've done very different from what I would do and work to change it. If I use kill_country to remove myself from the game and tag over to someone else , the time to finish a month drops further, to about 5.3 seconds. So from what I can see, it's not the AI empires that slow down the game, but the player. Solution: Don't play 
AG3 fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 21:41
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ZypherIM posted:You know, I typed a lot of stuff and it boiled down to you're avoiding the crux of my argument (early game usefulness), along with saying "I don't want to budget influence on this" is the same as "I'm unable to budget influence on this" (you're spending 100% of non-empire edict influence on war claims). Depending on your circumstances (planets, neighbors), mastery of nature can be a big boon early that falls off later. a habitat is definitely more influence-efficient than mastery of nature, but they're also too expensive to build early even if you beelined to the star fortress tech. i agree with you that mastery of nature is a pretty good early influence sink.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:43
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AG3 posted:So from what I can see, it's not the AI empires that slow down the speed, but the player. Solution: Don't play Not the answer I was looking for, but definitely the answer my civilization deserves 
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Mar 13, 2018 21:44
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AG3 posted:If I were to guess, I'd say it's related to pop numbers, though something is weird about that too. That would suggest that perhaps the lag is in updating the player's interface which is done more often than the AI's understanding of its own empire is updated.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:45
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ulmont posted:It is. But you can go to the species screen and set that leftover species to "Assimilate" and they will be converted to Psionic pretty quickly. Note that they will not produce resources while Assimilating, so if you turn your dominant-by-population-but-not-actually-primary-species over to Assimilate you can expect things to suck for a while. Semi related but, does gene modding your Psionic founders species still gently caress up a bunch of poo poo and generally confuse the game?
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Mar 13, 2018 21:45
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So the khan came and went and wrecked havoc in my corner of the galaxy. I managed to be space Switzerland and avoid his wrath. I now have a Colossus, and this the total war CB. How in the world am I supposed to end a war at this point if I tick 100 exhaustion without totally destroying the empire I’m attacking? Does firing the world cracker amp up their exhaustion if I don’t feel like destroying them in one swoop?
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Mar 13, 2018 21:53
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ZypherIM posted:You know, I typed a lot of stuff and it boiled down to you're avoiding the crux of my argument (early game usefulness) I don't think you ever made an argument, just told me I wasn't spending influence how I was spending it. ZypherIM posted:If you want to take a stand of "I think the influence cost for the tile gain isn't worth a perk" that is fine, but claiming to be unable to budget it in is bullshit (1.33 systems or 2 claims at base values). We can violently agree here and move on - yes, I would rather spend my influence on new systems, claims, gateways and habitats than the extra tiles from Mastery of Nature. ZypherIM posted:Is there math I'm unaware of showing habitats as better than planets (last I knew habitats' strength was not requiring a planet, not that they were better)? Not that I'm aware of either. I tend to go back and just start filling in all open slots in core systems with habitats when I run out of easy other expansion targets. Captain Oblivious posted:Semi related but, does gene modding your Psionic founders species still gently caress up a bunch of poo poo and generally confuse the game? Not that I have noticed, and one of those games was wonkier than usual as I edited the save from cyborg ascension to psionic midway through. Jeb Bush 2012 posted:what makes it strange is that they clearly understood why it is wrong, and if they changed their mind it would make much more sense to remove sectors entirely and add an "automate planet" button I assumed that it was 100% easier to bandaid sectors than to remove them and add the automate planet button, while leaving sectors as something fixable in the next expansion.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:53
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I thought habitats were generally poor, because they're only 12 tiles while still giving the full tech/tradition penalty, and being pretty useless for minerals. Though resource replicators might change that last one.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:05
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Dirk Pitt posted:So the khan came and went and wrecked havoc in my corner of the galaxy. I managed to be space Switzerland and avoid his wrath. I now have a Colossus, and this the total war CB. How in the world am I supposed to end a war at this point if I tick 100 exhaustion without totally destroying the empire I’m attacking? Does firing the world cracker amp up their exhaustion if I don’t feel like destroying them in one swoop? Destroying planets doesn't seem to give THAT much war exhaustion, really, unfortunately. On the other hand, status quo peace is still possible if you're using (or defending against) a total war CB. Total war just means claims aren't a thing, you keep every system and planet you take. So if you don't want to actually fight the war to the death, just get a status quo peace and then try again after the truce runs out.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:06
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Habitats have always been pretty good for Science and Energy despite their small size. The habitat science building is baller. I tend to make sure that every 4th or 5th colony I make is science-focused. If I have Habitats I use that instead of a planet, every time. I hear that Resource Replicator habitats are pretty good if you have lots of excess energy production, but I've not really tried it out yet.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:09
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Throw me in with the lot that thinks the current pirate system sucks. There used to be something similar in EU and it's long gone, thank God. Maybe have fleets and stations put out anti-pirate pressure to nearby stars. Any system without a planet/starbase (even one in your borders) can begin to build up pirate points. Starts as a little green skull next to the star, turns yellow, then red. The more pirate points you have in/near your empire (relative to your size) the more resources you lose to piracy. You can't just send a fleet to wack them, you have to build up at least some infrastructure even in the backwater of your empire or else pirates will begin to become an issue. Remove them as on map fleets, because pirate wack-a-mole is never ever fun.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:14
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OwlFancier posted:That would suggest that perhaps the lag is in updating the player's interface which is done more often than the AI's understanding of its own empire is updated. I tried cheating myself a couple of ringworlds and planets, which didn't change the timer measurably. Then I insta-populated them all, bringing the total empire population to double what it was, and the time to finish a month jumped to 10.6 seconds. Tag switching to an AI empire after that reduced the month timer to 7.7 seconds. So pop numbers impact the performance quite a bit (which is to be expected, of course), but there's definitely a significant extra overhead for big empires to be human. AG3 fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 22:14
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Autonomous Monster posted:Though resource replicators might change that last one. Resource replicators convert 50 energy and 1 tile to 40 minerals. I haven't gotten them fully online yet but I think it will work out well.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:15
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AG3 posted:there's definitely a significant extra overhead for big empires to be human. That's really weird to me, but I saw similar reports on the Paradox forums well before 2.0. I wonder what is causing that.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:15
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Hmm... Nomads happened and I ended up with 15 ships. That's some good math there, nomads.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:19
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Splicer posted:Hmm... Nomads happened and I ended up with 15 ships. That's some good math there, nomads. I encountered nomads and got the event where they asked for a planet I wasn't using. I said yes because I didn't want to lose the influence right then and a few seconds later the new empire thus created was automatically annexed to me, which seems unintended then because I was playing fanatic purifiers they got auto-purged, and I am pretty sure purifiers aren't supposed to be able to engage in diplomacy with NPC factions (you can't talk to enclaves for instance)
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Mar 13, 2018 22:22
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GotLag posted:Found an interesting mod: Huh. Tried this out. I really like the concept. You'd have to allow some sort of survey map exchange, like Civ map trading, but hostile empires could keep their starmaps/layouts secret. Very cool.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:29
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Autonomous Monster posted:I thought habitats were generally poor, because they're only 12 tiles while still giving the full tech/tradition penalty, and being pretty useless for minerals. They're good for science and energy and aren't really too bad for unity as the leisure district is OK and you can still put art monuments on them too if you're really strapped for planets such as with a life seeded start. I will again really recommend gulli's planet modifiers because with a good position you can get like free 20-40 energy/minerals income on a habitat. I rolled one with an innate 20 energy from a good completion roll +20 energy and 40 minerals based on the planet I built it around, so basically free 40 energy/minerals just by owning the habitat. Makes it incredibly competitive and arguably better than many planets.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:41
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OwlFancier posted:They're good for science and energy and aren't really too bad for unity as the leisure district is OK and you can still put art monuments on them too if you're really strapped for planets such as with a life seeded start. something that's not obvious: gulli's habitat modifiers on moons apply to habitats built over their planet a well-rolled gas giant can be ridiculously good because of this
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Mar 13, 2018 22:43
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Jazerus posted:something that's not obvious: gulli's habitat modifiers on moons apply to habitats built over their planet Wait WHAT??? Holy loving poo poo I thought they were just unusable on moons because you can only build around the primary. Jesus christ I'm reevaluating my hab placement.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:45
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Start exploring, find a pacifist life seeded empire to my south. ok, one little choke point, they will just exist down there. then, contact from my north. 2 new empires. Advanced start fanatic purifiers and advance start determined exterminators. 
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Mar 13, 2018 22:48
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ulmont posted:Resource replicators convert 50 energy and 1 tile to 40 minerals. I haven't gotten them fully online yet but I think it will work out well. I assume the edicts and civics (but not traits) affect that too making it better than 1:1. Also the upkeep reduction from prosperity.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:51
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Senor Dog posted:I assume the edicts and civics (but not traits) affect that too making it better than 1:1. Also the upkeep reduction from prosperity. I believe not, actually, if I recall it specifically adds mineral output to the planet, not the tile, so putting swole mans and propaganda on the matter-energy conversion facility does not break the laws of thermodynamics.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:56
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DatonKallandor posted:Status Quo is exactly that. Wars have 3 outcomes - Side A gets a total win and enforces their war goal, Side B gets a total win and enforces their war goal and Status Quo which is everybody gets occupied and claimed. Status Quo is the "I'm done with this War for now" option - explicitly the option you choose when you want to get out earlier than a total win. Nope, I know that. What I meant is say I am Space Florence and am claiming the systems of Treviso Verona and Venice from Space Venice. I have occupied the first two, their Status Quo acceptance is say, -20, and I have no way (or no will) to occupy Venice too. So I decide that just Verona will have to do. If this was EU4 (closest I can think of with claims and war requests) I could ask for just Verona and finish the war, in Stellaris I have to not occupy Treviso in order to just request Verona (or in other words, I have to wait for hopefully the AI to recapture Treviso). Or say the Ottomans fallen empire declares on me - in EU4 I'd want to white peace the gently caress out and prepare for the pain; in Stellaris I'd have to hope the AI would re-occupy Treviso and Verona and hope they accept the status quo (which they might not even want since they now might think they have momentum). E: I agree 100% with your second paragraph: please let me separate peace goddamn. Both if I am war leader towards participants, or other way round.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:57
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canepazzo posted:Nope, I know that. What I meant is say I am Space Florence and am claiming the systems of Treviso Verona and Venice from Space Venice. I have occupied the first two, their Status Quo acceptance is say, -20, and I have no way (or no will) to occupy Venice too. So I decide that just Verona will have to do. Wait for their war exhaustion to go up. Or occupy venice itself to make them capitulate. You can't claim systems and then immediately end the war while your enemy is still willing to fight back, you have to either wipe out their fleet or utterly crush them with occupation in order to make them give up, or you can hold your claims against the enemy for a long time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 22:58
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