CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

PT6A I think I see the problem with the discussion you've been having with our fine thread. Most everyone is arguing against this specific tax and why it's bad and useless for a variety of specific reasons, it making it more expensive for working poor people to drive when they have no other alternatives being one of them. You then possibly interpreted this as a total defense of people's right to cheap personal automobile usage, that working-class people's cars are a sacred cow.

I've certainly seen a certain type of leftist use this line of reasoning to be anti-bike lanes and anti-transit and pro-bridge widening and so on. Working poors have to live in the farthest cheapest suburbs thus any attack on driving is an attack on the working class. But I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing from this perspective, but you seem to be arguing back as if they were.

I hope I've cleared up some of the possible bother and confusion here.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:47

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:37

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Helsing posted:

You have said again and again that it would be better to implement the tax, as it is, than to not implement it. Yet somehow you also 100% agree with a post where the very first sentence says the tax as described should not be implemented.

I 100% agree with a post that says the tax, as implemented, is not the way to reduce carbon emissions. I do not agree with the sentiment that it's worse than doing nothing.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:47

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

Rip me

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:49

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Helsing posted:

I'd like to think of this as the rhetorical equivalent of vivisecting a certain kind of Trudeau voters' psyche and then poking around through their ideological guts and organs, finding out how they all fit together.

I get that but it's one thing to feed a black box rhetorical situations and examine contradicting answers and another to berate the black box because it refuses to change its answer. You're doing a lot of fruitless latter for a reason I can't figure out. I like having an authentic, genuine progressive identifying Liberal voter here who will do anything to make the world a better place as long as it makes them richer or at least doesn't inconvenience them at all personally so please don't chase him away. PT6A is great to get a quick read on how ~30% of the population feels about an issue.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:51

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

idk. Tough choice between

"do nothing to prevent global warming"

and

"implement policy that does nothing to prevent global warming, but in the name of preventing global warming further deepens pre-existing crisis levels of inequality by directly funneling money from pockets of poors to the wealthiest individuals in the province".

hmmm hmmm tough call tough call.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:51

Tochiazuma: Feb 16, 2007

Helsing posted:

So can we finally put to bed the whole mythology about PT6A's progressive come to Jesus moment? Does anyone doubt for a second that he'd have become a race realist instead of a fauxgressvie if he'd happened to post on 4chan instead of CanPol over the last couple years?

I stopped caring long ago about what PT6A thought about anything but strangely this thread seems obsessed with his opinions.

If he's some sort of practice dummy for political arguing in the real world I guess that would make sense but otherwise I'm not sure what the point is in constantly engaging him.

edit:

Helsing posted:

I'd like to think of this as the rhetorical equivalent of vivisecting a certain kind of Trudeau voters' psyche and then poking around through their ideological guts and organs, finding out how they all fit together.

Okay, that makes sense but I think you're just going to find a bunch of straw and dust in this case

Tochiazuma fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 14, 2018

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:54

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Baronjutter posted:

PT6A I think I see the problem with the discussion you've been having with our fine thread. Most everyone is arguing against this specific tax and why it's bad and useless for a variety of specific reasons, it making it more expensive for working poor people to drive when they have no other alternatives being one of them. You then possibly interpreted this as a total defense of people's right to cheap personal automobile usage, that working-class people's cars are a sacred cow.

Not exactly. I'm saying that a modest carbon tax on all fuels is a necessary and beneficial policy. This is a proper subset of that policy, therefore I cannot say this policy is, in isolation, bad. The budget and the tax changes it contains are, taken as a whole, bad, but they are bad because of all the things that aren't this carbon tax -- like the exemption for industrial users, the reduction in taxes elsewhere, and the lack of funding for green alternatives. That's where our anger should be directed, in my opinion.

Consider: all Pallister's opponents can now attack him on the bad parts of the budget -- the carve-outs for industry, the lack of funding for alternatives -- essentially completing the carbon tax and turning it into effective policy, without having to take political responsibility for increasing taxes at the consumer level.

PT6A fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Mar 14, 2018

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:54

James Baud: May 24, 2015; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

James Baud fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Aug 26, 2018

# ? Mar 14, 2018 20:57

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

I clicked and was greeted with ~~Rob~~ Doug Ford and PT6A chat.

Free CI

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:06

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

I admit CI would have eviscerated PT6A in just a couple succinct posts and then restored balance to thread by saying something awfully racist about Winnipeg.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:07

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

CI, master of efficiency, could have managed both at the same time.

Or just said "lol Fuerdai wheat kings" and started yelling about something he read on twitter

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 14, 2018

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:09

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

And in this analogy, Manitoba is the underground mall potted plant, and Pallister is the guy pooping in it.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:15

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

Actually I've just been arguing for 15+ pages because I don't like the phrasing on the things that are bad

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:16

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

I'm just here because I work from home now and have grown to deeply resent that fact.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:17

Tochiazuma: Feb 16, 2007

I'd say I'm only here for the beer recommendations but that's not true

I bet some lurker has that as a reason though, and it's not a bad one

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:27

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

recommend me some good eastern ontarian beers then

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:37

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

A good thread on volunteering for a campaign, for those of you interested. Tw: Twitter, and like 20 tweets.

https://twitter.com/ClaireMcWatt/status/973691456983531522

E:

Also, Steve Paikin on why John Tory probably isn't looking forward to a PC government

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 14, 2018

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:40

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

PT6A is basically the epitome of learn something good and important, and then still be a complete idiot about things he was always kind of ignorant about.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 21:53

littleorv: Jan 29, 2011

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

I�m loving mad!!!

# ? Mar 14, 2018 22:36

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

If a whole page goes without quoting some external media of note worthiness then everyone on that page should get probated. I don�t know why you guys engage in such pointless opinion wars.

# ? Mar 14, 2018 23:24

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

cowofwar posted:

If a whole page goes without quoting some external media of note worthiness then everyone on that page should get probated. I don�t know why you guys engage in such pointless opinion wars.

You're right: debating and discussing should be strictly off limits in the Debate & Discussion forum. However, posting about posting is extremely cool and good, so keep on it, friend!

# ? Mar 14, 2018 23:40

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

sup

but also I find everything PT6A posts hilarious, so day made

# ? Mar 14, 2018 23:58

EvidenceBasedQuack: Aug 15, 2015; A rock has no detectable opinion about gravity

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

It is me.

I'm the sucker
:ohdear:

# ? Mar 15, 2018 00:14

EvidenceBasedQuack: Aug 15, 2015; A rock has no detectable opinion about gravity

The gist of the following has been posted by Helsing, DariusLikewise, and vyelkin, but we already established I'm a sucker.

I was born rural. I have been a student for a long, long time. I've experienced the whole spectrum of public transit accessibility. I have driven sub $500 beater cars for 19 years before wanting really hard to, and thus inevitably managing to, join the Middle Class. In an urban area with great transit//close to work. Yay.

Unless living next to one's workplace/school, any area where public transit is not rapid, comprehensive, or does not operate around the clock requires cars as a means of transportation. This is unfortunately most of Canada. Moreover some occupations require driving one's car.

Others have explained it best. And it feels like I've argued this very statement before: disincentivizing fossil fuel use is good, but only and ONLY IF there are alternatives.

For most people there are no viable alternatives. They need cars for work, grocery shopping, school, public services. Basic needs. They are disproportionately affected by the Manitoba carbon tax. It's not like they can reasonably expected to move closer to work/services on a whim.

Yes, we need to stop our dependence on fossil fuel. The Manitoba carbon tax won't do it. High emitters pollute far more than individuals.

I could go on for hours but it all has been said in the last 4-5 pages.

# ? Mar 15, 2018 00:34

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

elon musk could give everyone in the prairies a tesla and it still wouldn't make up for the carbon output locked in by kinder morgan trans mountain expansion

# ? Mar 15, 2018 00:59

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

quote:

Where Jagmeet Singh is really coming from
Paul Wells: Canadians are getting used to hearing half answers from the NDP leader�on questions he himself is raising�about Sikh extremism

Here�s a funny Youtube video about Jagmeet Singh that came out during his first run for federal Parliament in 2011. It�s from JusReign, a YouTuber with a lot of subscribers who ended up working on Singh�s campaign. In the video, the two young men mostly goof around, wrestle, eat gulab jamun and goof some more.

At 2:30 Singh is giving his reasons for entering politics. He�s already mentioned student debt and other classic NDP issues. �I�ve also spoken out against members of the community who are attempting to slander the Sikh community,� Singh says.

�Who�s slandering?� JusReign cuts in.

Singh replies: �Well, you know, different people in the community will say comments��

JusReign is incredulous. �In the community. In our community?�

�In our community, yeah.�

�Let�s get some names, man.�

�Well, one in particular, there was some comments issued by Ujjal Dosanjh,� Singh says. This is an opportunity for more comedy from JusReign, who asks whether Singh wants to fight Dosanjh, and Singh protests that he wants no such thing, and that�s pretty much the end of the serious conversation.

What had Ujjal Dosanjh, the former BC premier and federal cabinet minister, been saying at around that time that Singh called an �attempt to slander the Sikh community?�

Well, the previous spring, Dosanjh had been warned that if he showed up at the Vaisakhi parade in Surrey, he should bring his own security because his safety couldn�t be assured. That led British Columbia�s premier to skip the parade, and Dosanjh to give this interview, in which he said Sikh extremism was �getting worse� in Canada, thanks to �politically correct� politicians who turn a blind eye in the name of diversity. This led to a Facebook page calling Dosanjh a traitor; one of the comments on the page was a pretty clear death threat, not the first Dosanjh has faced.

So, Dosanjh criticizes violent extremism, is rewarded with concern trolling over his personal safety, and Jagmeet Singh says it�s Dosanjh�s perpetration of �slander� that helps to motivate his entry into politics.

These are complex issues and I�m not going to convince anyone if I start trying to designate heroes and villains. But it�s the darnedest thing: every time Jagmeet Singh shows up near the 34-year-old dispute over appropriate and inappropriate responses to the 1984 massacre of thousands of Sikhs in Delhi and Punjab, he seems to volunteer comments that are pretty easy to interpret as taking sides.

In 2011, he wanted to take on Dosanjh, a frequent recipient of death threats who was beaten with a lead pipe in 1985, for �slander.� In 2015, the Globe and Mail reports, he was in San Francisco speaking at a Sikh �sovereignty rally� featuring posters of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, who died in an Indian government raid against heavily-armed Sikhs in the Golden Temple in 1984.

Was Bhindranwale a violent extremist or a freedom fighter? I confess I�m agnostic on the question, though I know lots of others aren�t. But Singh�s presence at the rally, which was some 4,000 km from the riding he then represented in Ontario�s legislature, suggests a really keen interest. Steve Chase, the Globe�s reporter on this story, tweeted a photo of the rally. The biggest banner in sight says �SOVEREIGNTY RALLY� in letters as big as your head, and this cheery quotation from Bhindranwale: �Freedom from slavery is only achieved when a person starts to prefer death than living like a slave.�

At the rally, Singh said, �We are talking about [the Sikh massacre as a genocide] because, in our country where we live, that country intentionally tried to wipe us out.�

But after the Globe story appeared, the NDP posted a reply from Singh in which he says, �Questions regarding the future of India are not for me to decide. I am not a citizen of India or an Indian politician.� Well, hang on. In San Francisco he�s concerned about �our country where we live� while standing in front of a photo of a fighter for Khalistan under the word SOVEREIGNTY. In Ottawa, golly, who�s to say? Shrug emoji. (On the substance of the narrow question at hand, he is closer to the truth in Ottawa than he was in San Francisco: He was born in Scarborough, does not live in India, and in fact the last time he tried to visit the country in 2014, its government denied him a visa.)

We are getting used, when watching Jagmeet Singh on these issues, to seeing certain characteristic moves. One is what could be called the firm condemnation of� well, of someone. �I condemn all acts of terrorism in every part of the world, regardless of who the perpetrators are or who the victims are,� he says in Wednesday�s release. This rather starkly evades the question of whether he believes Bhindranwale was a terrorist. Maybe he doesn�t! It would be interesting to hear him out on the question. Instead he makes a categorical statement that clumsily hides another, obvious question.

D�j� vu. After the CBC�s Terry Milewski aggressively questioned Singh about his opinion of the 1985 bombing of Air India Flight 182, the NDP leader said �anyone held responsible needs to be denounced.� You know who was never held responsible? Talwinder Singh Parmar, who was found by a commission of inquiry into the massacre to be the ringleader of the attack�but who died before being convicted. Milewski�s question was about Parmar. The Globe�s questions are about Bhindranwale. Singh�s answers are at once so forceful and so opaque that you may not be entirely surprised to learn he�s a lawyer by trade.

Singh�s statement on the San Francisco rally closes with an ode to �a fundamental principle that is written into Article 1 of the UN Charter: respect for equal rights and self-determination.� This is his answer whenever he is asked his position on the Khalistan question of Sikh independence from India. As a handy bonus, it allows a Canadian federal NDP leader to suggest generous tolerance for the secessionist aspirations of many Quebecers. Good for the nationalist vote, don�t you know.

But by now we are getting used to half-answers from Singh. The jurisprudence around the UN Charter right of self-determination isn�t skimpy. It�s vast. And as Canada�s own Supreme Court wrote in the 1998 Secession Reference, �international law expects that the right to self-determination will be exercised by peoples within the framework of existing sovereign states and consistently with the maintenance of the territorial integrity of those states.� That means: if you�re citizens of a sovereign state, you can�t unilaterally set the terms of your departure from that state with your territory.

The international preference for stability and territorial integrity is so clear, in fact, that in 2017 we saw two well-organized attempts at secession that went absolutely nowhere: in Kurdistan and in Catalonia. Again, you�d think that somebody who talks a lot about the right of self-determination would know something about the jurisprudence and the case law. And indeed, I think he does, but he�s hoping his audience doesn�t.

I would so dearly prefer that these not be the subjects that follow Singh around that, when I recently sat down with him for an hour in front of CPAC�s cameras, we didn�t discuss them. But I�m not the one who flew to San Francisco and took the podium in front of a death-before-slavery poster the size of a barn door. Three years ago. The guy who did that is Jagmeet Singh, and everyone is starting to notice how he answers the questions he himself put so much energy into raising.

I think Wells is right that this issue is going to haunt Singh. Typical Canadians know nothing of these issues and historical conflicts, and simpler answers are required.

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:07

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Dreylad posted:

recommend me some good eastern ontarian beers then

Grab yerself a Blue Star

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFs-Qmc3IcU

Edit: a poo poo I thought you said EASTERN beers. Either way, follow this guys advice.

vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Mar 15, 2018

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:31

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Niki Would Have Won

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:32

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

cowofwar posted:

If a whole page goes without quoting some external media of note worthiness then everyone on that page should get probated. I don�t know why you guys engage in such pointless opinion wars.

This is like D&D.txt

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:40

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

THC posted:

Niki Would Have Won

lol no

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:48

DariusLikewise: Oct 4, 2008; You wore that on Halloween?

This is some next level poo poo

https://twitter.com/AndrewScheer/status/974113301415145477

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:52

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

DariusLikewise posted:

This is some next level poo poo

https://twitter.com/AndrewScheer/status/974113301415145477

How the gently caress does someone reconcile that picture and that text

# ? Mar 15, 2018 03:54

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

Hey gently caress you. :mad:

Im still off sitting in my corner being angry at the ONDP for being such colossal wet farts. Also just found out Ford is considering asking Brown to run in my riding and that terrifies me (because he would win easily).

# ? Mar 15, 2018 04:02

EvidenceBasedQuack: Aug 15, 2015; A rock has no detectable opinion about gravity

How dare Jagmeet Singh recognize human rights violations towards Sikh people in front of a crowd composed mainly of Sikh people?

For sure he could have explicitly denounced all forms of terrorism in his interview with Milewski, but I think Paul Wells is playing a bit of gotcha journalism here since IIRC he did in his letter.

Going through Quebec history at a young age I get why there was a sovereignty movement even if I don't condone any violence and I believe separation is a terrible idea.

As pointed above Canadians need simple black or white answers. I guess Canadian journalists too.

# ? Mar 15, 2018 04:10

Stickarts: Dec 21, 2003; literally

DariusLikewise posted:

This is some next level poo poo

https://twitter.com/AndrewScheer/status/974113301415145477

Speaking of Sasky politics, how �bout some Trump reference?

https://mobile.twitter.com/SaskParty/status/973659297342107648

Stickarts fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Mar 15, 2018

# ? Mar 15, 2018 04:16

Reince Penis: Nov 15, 2007; by R. Guyovich

https://twitter.com/KaivanShroff/status/974117727626518528

Art of the deal :smug:

# ? Mar 15, 2018 04:17

The Butcher: Apr 20, 2005; Well, at least we tried.; Nap Ghost

I think you guys are overestimating how much non Sikh/Indian Canadians care about that stuff.

It's a big deal to people who have lived through it and been touched by it, but your average whitey doesn't give a gently caress.

# ? Mar 15, 2018 04:54

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

TheKingofSprings posted:

How the gently caress does someone reconcile that picture and that text

Lower taxes on rich people = higher wages for everyone is basically right wing dogma at this point.

# ? Mar 15, 2018 05:40

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

So in response to a suggestion in the Trump thread, I started trying to make a :qqpeterson: smiley:

I'm just struggling to get it to fit within the limit for smileys. I had thought it increased, but the form is still enforcing 25px high, 10kb max file size.

Anyone wanna help me out with getting this gif to fit? (Or finding a shorter loop from the video of him crying?)

# ? Mar 15, 2018 05:42

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:37

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

Helsing posted:

Also lolling at whoever sees 200+ new CanPol posts and clicks on this thread thinking something newsworthy happened. Gotcha sucker.

Hi

Although with pt6a on ignore it was a pretty quick catchup.

# ? Mar 15, 2018 05:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

«‹›2341 »