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Mar 16, 2018 19:06
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how bout them personas eh
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Mar 16, 2018 19:25
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Hunt11 posted:What rank are we with Tora right now? rank 9.
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Mar 16, 2018 19:30
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resurgam40 posted:Oh dear, did I worry people again? I didn't really mean that to be taken wholly seriously; I'm personally doing quite well, and am much happier and healthier than I was, say, a year previous. Things like that whole spiel just sort of happen on days when I'm the only one at work, am extremely bored, and In A Mood. Good thing this thread isn't about Monster Hunter World, or I'd be yelling about the game being a celebration of colonialism and the promotion of trophy hunting, and how if I want to play a game about savaging a beautiful critter just minding his own business and wear its guts for garters, I should at least be made to feel a little bad about it, as in Shadow of the Colossus. 
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Mar 16, 2018 19:32
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Looks like he never saw it coming 
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Mar 16, 2018 19:39
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HIJK posted:2) These animated cutscenes and other sexualized content in P5 can be dumb and silly but I feel like it's important to understand that they are a Japanese product from Japan and frankly while I'm not thrilled with them I think this thread's reaction to them is seriously over the top and it's because patriarchial Westerners keep projecting their patriarchial imperialist Western values on Japan which is Gross (tm) so stop doing that the sleaze isn't something that should be just Accepted as Japanese, plenty of japanese media isn't like this the main problem is that for the last decade or so these games in particular have been made and directed by people who appear to be mentally trapped in high school themselves
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Mar 16, 2018 19:45
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HIJK posted:2) These animated cutscenes and other sexualized content in P5 can be dumb and silly but I feel like it's important to understand that they are a Japanese product from Japan and frankly while I'm not thrilled with them I think this thread's reaction to them is seriously over the top and it's because patriarchial Westerners keep projecting their patriarchial imperialist Western values on Japan which is Gross (tm) so stop doing that Also there's some serious irony in describing people who think women should be treated like human beings as "patriarchal".
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Mar 16, 2018 20:11
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Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:Have you considered stepping outside At work, remember? Can't well serve the professors, mind the desk, and police the shelves whilst taking in the sun, unfortunately... still a few hours to go. Tell you what, though- I'm sure not bored anymore!  (Seriously, SA, you make the day bright, I would never have come so far without you.  )HIJK posted:1) Yosuke is funny and cute and cool and my boyfriend and I like him and yea he's an idiot but he listened to me when I set him straight close to the end game of P4 so actually he's Good (tm) and I'll fistfight anyone who wants to argue with me Between this and the points raised in the posts previous... I believe it is time for me, to use
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Mar 16, 2018 20:17
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Please stop posting
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Mar 16, 2018 20:18
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GeneX posted:Please stop posting Don't listen to this coward, keep going you're doing great!!
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Mar 16, 2018 20:37
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wtf is going on
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Mar 16, 2018 20:41
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Oxxidation posted:the sleaze isn't something that should be just Accepted as Japanese, plenty of japanese media isn't like this I'm not an expert on Japanese media so I wouldn't know. I just raise my eyebrows way up when a bunch of Westerners keep dogpiling like this. TheOneAndOnlyT posted:I think it's more important to understand that P5 objectifies and oversexualizes women and that is a Bad Thing, regardless of its country of origin or the richness of that country's culture. An animated teenager goggling at other animated teenagers in swimsuits is seriously harmless and it does not hurt women to be noticed by their peers. It isn't dehumanizing and it's pretty weird to describe it that way, especially during the beach scene in question where Ann is completely chilled out about it and teases her friend. That doesn't mean the game handles this perfectly all the time (just compare Kamoshida's plot thread to Kawakami's romance route; his is predatory whereas she is supposed to be romantic) but the complaining in this thread is still overblown, even when you understand where it's coming from. I get that the adult demographic views this differently but that's also probably because we're not the ones this game is aimed at.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:43
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"The country of Japan is sexist and creepy, it's just the way they are" is a pretty bad take, but I'm not so sure about "It's a free country, women shouldn't wear swimsuits at the beach, and sex workers should be provided with guns" as a response to a Japanese video game either.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:10
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Honestly, I'm surprised these kind of posts haven't happened several times in this thread before now.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:15
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HIJK posted:An animated teenager goggling at other animated teenagers in swimsuits is seriously harmless HIJK posted:it does not hurt women to be noticed by their peers. It isn't dehumanizing and it's pretty weird to describe it that way, especially during the beach scene in question where Ann is completely chilled out about it and teases her friend.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:35
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Absolutely! And if that were the extent of it I would have no problem. I'm not suggesting that it's misogynistic to show a woman wearing a swimsuit at the beach. It's the totally unnecessary rear end shots and focus on the girls' bodies that I have an issue with. Is it a minor thing in the grand scheme of the game? Yes, but as I've said before in the thread, if you let people get away with minor poo poo, they'll eventually move onto bigger things. I've been hit on by men when I'm wearing a swimsuit. Sometimes it was welcome and sometimes it was not, and I'm an American woman living in American society so actually yeah I'm familiar with the mindset because I've lived with it my whole life. I don't think the T&A shots are necessarily great but they're fanservice and fanservice has that amount of sleaze in it. Roundly condemning it isn't the answer either because then that puts us into this desexualized horror show where we can't appreciate how attractive other humans are.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:43
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GeneX posted:Please stop posting I have been glomped by the great spirit of Trotsky, and my mind burns with the desire to smash capitalism and to baptize all people everywhere with liberty and equality using the blood of billionaires, white nationalists, and MRAs... so that may prove difficult. But if you grant me your power by typing "stay safe, socialism ghost" and posting it in this thread, He will leave my body and be free to roam the earth once more, as Joe Hill does. Solidarity to women, to minorities, and to the working class! Solidarity forever! ... OK, seriously now: what is so wrong about the fact that I'm raising these questions about the treatment of the female characters in this video game? The video game itself, through the plot, has raised the issues of blackmail, bullying, and sexual abuse, and has painted all of these as wrong, so is it not appropriate to take this game and its creators to task and ask them to account for the double standard of calling out these evils whist indulging in humor and cliches borne of the same sexism that leads to sexual abuse? Yes, this is a created environment with characters not meant to be parallels or representations of real people and these events can't really be comparable to real life... but so what? The subtext that leads to those greater evils is still here and present, as I am pleased to see at least some posters have noticed, so why not talk about them? Because it's a game you use for escapism, and you'd rather not talk about it? Fair enough, but I need some escapism myself, and given that the awful things men have done to women are one of the things I want to escape from sometimes, I tend to notice when such sexism is right in front of my face- and believe it or not, it isn't always, in any kind of video game. Is it because you can't consider a game fun if you think about it too much? I guess I can see that, but discussing a game and what it says, in picking apart the symbology and the greater meaning behind the imagery and the action, both intended and accidental- that's fun for me. That's how I enjoy games, and movies and books- all of the ways a culture takes its mind off of work and of life, and how that informs the identity of that culture. Isn't that fun to talk about sometimes? Or am I just a weirdo? (Don't bother answering that one, we all already know.) I'd also go into HIJK's use of the word "Westerners" and wonder how that matters at all in critiquing something, but it seems it's quitting time, so I gotta catch the metro. Peace!
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Mar 16, 2018 22:07
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Arist posted:wtf is going on Lock the thread please
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Mar 16, 2018 22:13
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i'm begging you to please spend some time outside and away from the computer
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Mar 16, 2018 22:38
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resurgam. Mate. Buddy. My dude. Please stop. I don't care if this is sincerely how you want to post about this or if you're just enacting a per-- a character, and I don't even think you're wrong about half of this stuff or even that it's not worth bringing up, it's just, please, not like this. Not like this.
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Mar 16, 2018 23:20
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So, who are the Phantom Thieves going to dox next?
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Mar 16, 2018 23:33
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Arist posted:wtf is going on You are getting the rare opportunity to watch someone descend into madness in real time.
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Mar 17, 2018 00:51
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lmao Taking time to appreciate attractive people in swimsuits at a beach: Has sexism gone too far? I can appreciate that not having any focus on Joker (who is a very attractive guy!) or Yusuke (  )MonsterEnvy posted:It does. I know about the lei, I meant the part where the knife stabs the calendar. amigolupus posted:Do we count that Maaku has had to save Takemi, Hifumi, Kawakami and presumably by changing the hearts of the awful people in their lives as part of the bad treatment? Like on one hand, I can see it fitting in with the game's themes of people being abused by an uncaring system. On the other hand, I can also see it being argued that it turns them into damsels and removes some agency in their links. Every non-party confidant except for one needs you to go save them from someone in Mementos. It's not sexist, what on earth are you talking about. ApplesandOranges posted:Ann, Shiho and Kawakami are the only real 'bad' women treatments I think. Hifumi's got some possible sexist things if you really squint, but it isn't really a major issue. Ann has like one bad moment. Kawakami's problem isn't tied to her being a woman or anything, I dunno. e: Oh her outfit is dumb too, but it's an established archetype so.. Whatever, I guess. resurgam40 posted:So we have, in fact, forgotten all about the beach outing, and the pains took there (as they have been since P3) to get all the fetishization of girls in swimsuits that they can, and then some? And yes, I suppose it is better now that we don't have Yosuke to open his big, stupid mouth (or for the protagonist to agree with him, for some ungodly reason), or that the girls don't act uncharacteristically awful in a scene because men are like this but women are like this, dontcha know, or that we don't have some fat girl to mock for being fat*... but this is still a game in which Ohya deflects suspicion against her by pretending to go out with a teenager, a thing which goes completely unremarked upon or deconstructed by the game. That there are so many plots dedicated to some of the terrible things that happen to women and girls in society is fine, but it clashes when the story uses a lot of tropes which have their origins in sexist thought. People have been talking about such moments as they come up, but then seem to lose the thread, but I havent forgotten such moments and nor do I wish to. We can and should do better than we have done, for women and for other minorities. What is wrong with your brain HIJK posted:
The thing I focused on with Kamoshida's plot wasn't even "he's a teacher!" it was "He's physically abusing male students and FORCING HIMSELF ONTO TEENAGE GIRLS." Kawakami is pretty much as far away from forcing herself onto Joker as can be. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 17, 2018 |
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Mar 17, 2018 00:53
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Arist posted:wtf is going on You have attracted a swarm of idiots. Quick, set the thread on fire! It's the only way to get rid of them.
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Mar 17, 2018 01:11
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Yeah we had one moment like this earlier, but it never got this stupid.
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Mar 17, 2018 01:16
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Stroth posted:You are getting the rare opportunity to watch someone descend into madness in real time.
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Mar 17, 2018 04:10
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freshlybaked posted:Honestly, I'm surprised these kind of posts haven't happened several times in this thread before now.
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Mar 17, 2018 05:27
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Can I just raise a simple point here? None of these characters are real. I fail to see why people are bending into pretzels over fictional characters in fictional situations.
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Mar 17, 2018 06:20
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cdyoung posted:Can I just raise a simple point here? Because those fictional characters in fictional situations inspire real emotions in people because they resonate with the audience. That's the whole loving point of fiction, to provoke an emotional response from the audience.
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Mar 17, 2018 06:31
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W.T. Fits posted:Because those fictional characters in fictional situations inspire real emotions in people because they resonate with the audience. That's the whole loving point of fiction, to provoke an emotional response from the audience. I can understand that, I'm just not understanding the overreactions happening in this thread over a pretty typical, if well made, Japanese media product.
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Mar 17, 2018 07:28
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cdyoung posted:I can understand that, I'm just not understanding the overreactions happening in this thread over a pretty typical, if well made, Japanese media product. Like, resurgam went overboard, but people do have a point that this game gets tone deaf in a few spots.
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Mar 17, 2018 07:53
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Haifisch posted:I can give you one big reason this stuff comes up more in discussions about Persona than other Japanese games/etc: The missteps on stuff like homophobic 'jokes' & how women are treated stand out a lot more in a series whose themes revolve around accepting your true self, and in the case of P5, rebelling against societal rules and norms that hurt the little guy. Well argued, but everyone also needs to remember that, personas 3-5 are all filled with teenagers, the shittiest people of any age group, and sadly a rather raw reflection about how teens and young adults are acting in the real world.. tone deafness is almost a universal constant, along side idiotic and simpleminded acts of brutishness, sexism and homophobia. To be honest, I'm hoping a future Persona game will bring back an actual ADULT crew for protagonists, like P2EP, I mean half of that crew were jerks, but they were justified in their jerkishness due to living rough lives. Unlike the shitheel antics of the juvinals in the last three games.
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Mar 17, 2018 09:02
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Haifisch posted:I can give you one big reason this stuff comes up more in discussions about Persona than other Japanese games/etc: The missteps on stuff like homophobic 'jokes' & how women are treated stand out a lot more in a series whose themes revolve around accepting your true self, and in the case of P5, rebelling against societal rules and norms that hurt the little guy. People really seem to be harping on how minor the beach animated scene is, and in all honesty, I don't disagree! If that had been the only instance of skeeviness in this game, I probably would have just rolled my eyes and moved on. But it's part of a pattern that Persona just never seems to have any desire to shake, and it's all the more noticeable because this very game contains an entire Palace filled to the brim with sexualized images of women that are used in a thematically appropriate way. Persona's developers have shown that they can treat women as more than just sex objects, so when they don't, the only possible conclusion is that they're choosing not to.
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Mar 17, 2018 09:03
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Guess not a lot of people in here read the Umineko thread, huh? I don't really have much to add, other than that I'm at least glad there's no goddamn hot springs scene, and yes it's kind of sad that the bar was set so low, but I take solace where I can find it. Also Ryuji > Yosuke.
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Mar 17, 2018 12:21
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cdyoung posted:Well argued, but everyone also needs to remember that, personas 3-5 are all filled with teenagers, the shittiest people of any age group, and sadly a rather raw reflection about how teens and young adults are acting in the real world.. tone deafness is almost a universal constant, along side idiotic and simpleminded acts of brutishness, sexism and homophobia.
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Mar 17, 2018 13:54
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cdyoung posted:Well argued, but everyone also needs to remember that, personas 3-5 are all filled with teenagers, the shittiest people of any age group, and sadly a rather raw reflection about how teens and young adults are acting in the real world.. tone deafness is almost a universal constant, along side idiotic and simpleminded acts of brutishness, sexism and homophobia. I dunno, I think the P3 cast and to a lesser degree, P5 cast, have some pretty valid issues. P4's gang are more typical teenagers.
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Mar 17, 2018 19:08
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The most I got is that a lot of people in this thread are very oversensitive. And possibly some of the most prudish people I have seen.
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Mar 17, 2018 19:56
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really queer Christmas posted:Lock the thread please
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Mar 17, 2018 20:01
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I'd very much appreciate it if we could stop implying all the people who are even a little bothered by the sexualization of underage characters are prudes, especially in regard to situations that make those characters themselves explicitly uncomfortable, and especially because most of it is just me making dumb eye-roll jokes about how the game director is extremely horny. Also the last time this came up at all naturally was loving weeks ago, let's just drop it. I don't want to lock this thread, especially because I plan to update some time in the next few hours, so please don't make me.
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Mar 17, 2018 20:09
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Cuntellectual posted:Every non-party confidant except for one needs you to go save them from someone in Mementos. It's not sexist, what on earth are you talking about. The reason I asked that was that I honestly don't know anything that happens in this game. And because based on the current progress with Confidants, Maaku has had to save Hifumi, Kawakami and Takemi (and it looks like Chihaya would need saving too). I was just wondering whether that's just part of the game's themes, or if that might be considered sexist. And while the only example we have on the male Confidants was Tora (who needed no saving), folks helpfully pointed out that the other male characters are still pretty early on in their links, and that Kawakami and Takemi were already resolving to improve their problems or even confront their tormentors. So yeah, if every non-party Confidant needs Maaku to save them from someone then that's alright. cdyoung posted:To be honest, I'm hoping a future Persona game will bring back an actual ADULT crew for protagonists, like P2EP, I mean half of that crew were jerks, but they were justified in their jerkishness due to living rough lives. Unlike the shitheel antics of the juvinals in the last three games. Agreed! Maybe now that Hashino is no longer the director, Persona 6 could have adult party members again.
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Mar 17, 2018 20:14
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