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IIRC Publically traded companies can also do stuff with preferred stock and the like such that even if you buy all the available stock doesn't constitute enough of the voting shares to actually allow for buyers to have enough of a say to use it as a debt dumping ground like this. e: Owl tax https://twitter.com/OrenosukinaGIF/status/974272301565964288
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Mar 16, 2018 20:26
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Here's the 2018-maturing Toys R Us Bond - http://markets.businessinsider.com/bonds/7_375-toys-r-us-bond-2018-us892335al43 (it ain't pretty, folks).
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Mar 16, 2018 20:27
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:With privately held companies there are still shares with a share price, they're just not listed on an exchange. Instead of buying shares from individual shareholders and issuing bonds, they just buy from the ownership (and issue bonds). Cool. Thank you. My MBA program had one course on finance  EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Here's the 2018-maturing Toys R Us Bond - Oh, poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:27
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Did we talk about Don Jr's soon to be ex-wife hiring a criminal defense lawyer for the divorce? because 
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Mar 16, 2018 20:28
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Moatman posted:IIRC Publically traded companies can also do stuff with preferred stock and the like such that even if you buy all the available stock doesn't constitute enough of the voting shares to actually allow for buyers to have enough of a say to use it as a debt dumping ground like this. SNAP Inc., for example, gives its publicly traded shares NO voting rights, lol. The Sean posted:Cool. Thank you. The best thing I've read on the topic was "Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco" which is an awesome perspective about private equity financing and leveraged buyouts (and also the go-go excess of the 80's!) It's good enough to be a course on its own, but I have other books if you want a more technical recommendation. I loving love finance.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:29
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Wal*Mart's "book value" (shares outstanding * share price) right now is $260B, the real estate they own under all their stores is worth about $40B more than that on its own, and if you discount their stable cash flows the whole enterprise is probably worth $800B. There are a couple of different theories. In theory one the stock price is what THE MARKET thinks the present value of all future dividend payments is. In the other theory the stock price is what THE MARKET thinks is the assets of the company are worth. In reality its all bullshit.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:30
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Tayter Swift posted:It's step 6 that gets me. Isn't new company still part of your company at this stage? Why is your company not held liable for that arm of your company? Even Enron went down for precisely that. Shareholders aren't liable for the debt of the company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability
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Mar 16, 2018 20:30
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Nobody is going to pay the billions more that Walmart's real estate is worth if there isn't going to be thriving retail there, which there won't be if the Walmarts all get liquidated. In other words, the valuation of the company is more realistic than the valuation of their real estate.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:31
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Xae posted:There are a couple of different theories.  , finance edition
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Mar 16, 2018 20:37
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Arglebargle III posted:How the corporate takeover scam works: "Gentleman, here is the plan to save the forums, we buy out Reddit...."
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Mar 16, 2018 20:37
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https://twitter.com/TheOnion/status/974722023812468736
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Mar 16, 2018 20:39
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Xae posted:There are a couple of different theories. At the very least logically the stock price should be close to or above what the asset prices are unless you think the assets should lose value in the future. That logic would be true in both of your scenarios.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:42
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Oh god... "you know what" is actually colluding with the Russians! Chuck Grassley, you sly dog. 
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Mar 16, 2018 20:43
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Vladimir Putin posted:At the very least logically the stock price should be close to or above what the asset prices are unless you think the assets should lose value in the future. That logic would be true in both of your scenarios. Companies don't just go "Well, lets sell off all our assets and shut down". They Sears it for a decade or two first. When a company is priced below their total net assets THE MARKET is saying "You're hosed, you just don't know it yet".
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Mar 16, 2018 20:46
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sears was purchased by an idiot.
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Mar 16, 2018 20:53
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HootTheOwl posted:Traif you imbecile. Cool, learned a new word Also apparently you misspelled it you imbecile
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Mar 16, 2018 20:54
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Tayter Swift posted:It's step 6 that gets me. Isn't new company still part of your company at this stage? Why is your company not held liable for that arm of your company? Even Enron went down for precisely that. The new company can find lots of ways to cut cheques to the pirate company with the borrowed money (board member salaries, consulting fees, taking out loans that they promptly pay over the ones they ignore for bankruptcy). Best part is they already know the cheques have cleared before going bankrupt. Venture capital does a variant on it: they give you money then immediately fill your board with high-paid/high expense members (who hire their friends as C-level execs) to siphon the cash out as fast as possible so you need a second round of funding, and another, and another. The venture fund manager puts his buds on the board, and the new board members do likewise for the fund guy. Company looks super valuable on the fund manager's sheet because of how much money is in it, making his bonus even bigger. Why yes my stock options were diluted down to nothing on acquisition, how did you guess?
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Mar 16, 2018 20:55
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Generic American posted:Oh god... "you know what" is actually colluding with the Russians! Chuck Grassley, you sly dog. But where does the triple-lawnmower fit in?
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Mar 16, 2018 20:57
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:SNAP Inc., for example, gives its publicly traded shares NO voting rights, lol. Clearly the best work on this subject is Other People's Money, the Danny Devito rom-com. Xae posted:In reality its all bullshit. This is the most true thing about the stock market/finance.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:10
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https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/974739745426329601
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Mar 16, 2018 21:11
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Tayter Swift posted:It's step 6 that gets me. Isn't new company still part of your company at this stage? Why is your company not held liable for that arm of your company? Even Enron went down for precisely that. I know it's been answered already but the short version is the Venture Capital firm doesn't own the company, at least by the time everything falls apart. The VC firm gets its payday immediately as a flat fee (in the 10s or 100s of millions) for "handling the process" of the buyout. They generally have no vested interest in if what they did kills the company. What's even more maddening is that VC generally targeted stable companies with low debt loads; ie companies that were doing well before the buyout. In some instances during the heyday of leveraged buyouts companies would purposefully take on large amounts of debt just to make them less likely to be targeted. Crackbone fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 21:13
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https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/974728644135407618 For those keeping track at home, thats half as many people as are employed in the entire coal industry But these people don't count for some reason, and probably won't get a billion NYT op-eds
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Mar 16, 2018 21:15
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Groovelord Neato posted:sears was purchased by an idiot. Also said idiot is the ultimate libertarian true believer and stores compete against each other.(even people within the same store too?)
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Mar 16, 2018 21:16
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33,000 jobs being lost will absolutely become a drag on employment statistics.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:17
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Really disappointed I haven't seen a single "millenials buying their zero-carbon-footprint fidget spinners from Amazon killed Toys 'R' Us" thinkpiece yet.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:19
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Too Shy Guy posted:Really disappointed I haven't seen a single "millenials buying their zero-carbon-footprint fidget spinners from Amazon killed Toys 'R' Us" thinkpiece yet. How millenials and immigrants killed Toys R Us: FAAAAAAAAAAAART
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Mar 16, 2018 21:20
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Did the Trump admin. really put someone up before shucks to explain the Advice and Consent clause? 
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Mar 16, 2018 21:35
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https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/974746157325934592?s=20 It's gonna be funny if the Russia investigation turns up nothing and this is the thing that takes Trump down
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Mar 16, 2018 21:37
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The Glumslinger posted:https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/974728644135407618 This does a good job summing up, thanks.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:38
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Nevvy Z posted:Did the Trump admin. really put someone up before shucks to explain the Advice and Consent clause? Yes they did. Oddly enough, the subject of Merrick Garland did not come up.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:39
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The Glumslinger posted:https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/974728644135407618 Man, this blows. Even in my adult years wandering a Toys R Us was like turning into a kid again
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Mar 16, 2018 21:39
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Kids that participated in the national walkout received corporal punishment. https://twitter.com/royarafei/status/974741257078657028 
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Mar 16, 2018 21:39
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HappyHippo posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/974746157325934592?s=20 if loving in the white house didn't bring down Clinton, why would it bring down an infinitely more "who gives a gently caress what I do" president?
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Mar 16, 2018 21:39
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PhazonLink posted:Also said idiot is the ultimate libertarian true believer and stores compete against each other.(even people within the same store too?) Even better, the different divisions fight against each other. http://www.businessinsider.com/eddie-lamperts-sears-strategy-disaster-2013-7 quote:Executive bonuses were based on individual unit performance, so people tried to boost their own division's profit at the expense of others.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:40
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HappyHippo posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/974746157325934592?s=20 
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Mar 16, 2018 21:40
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After all the hype of an imminent bloodbath, this week really ended with a whimper. CBS need to change their mind and air the Stormy interview this weekend instead of next weekend to keep things interesting.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:41
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PhazonLink posted:Also said idiot is the ultimate libertarian true believer and stores compete against each other.(even people within the same store too?) He was also an Objectivist which is like the libertarian hat trick new game+ of bad business qualifications. And yeah the making different departments of each store compete with each other actually did happen happened to the point that it gutted the company. I found a pretty good article about it, and drat, it's some real Scientology poo poo quote:Instead of enhancing Sears’ bottom line, the heads of various divisions began to undermine each other and fight tooth and claw for the profits of their individual fiefdoms at the expense of the overall brand. By this time Crazy Eddie was completely in thrall to his own bloated ego, and fancied he could bend underlings to his will by putting them through humiliating rituals, like annual conference calls in which unit managers were forced to bow and scrape for money and resources. But the chaos only grew. zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 21:41
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HappyHippo posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/974746157325934592?s=20 "Real Time with Bill Maher posted:Wolf later added that there are “back doors” at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., saying, “If I can get into the White House, porn stars can get into the White House.”
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Mar 16, 2018 21:43
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TyrantWD posted:After all the hype of an imminent bloodbath, this week really ended with a whimper. CBS need to change their mind and air the Stormy interview this weekend instead of next weekend to keep things interesting. Optimistically we still have another 15-30 minutes before the news break golden hour, so to speak.
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Mar 16, 2018 21:43
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Teddybear posted:Welcome to the wonderful world of LLCs and independent subsidiaries, my friend. I feel like every sentence invoking Mitt should include, "my friend," in it.
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