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Yes, but in this case the assholes weren't quite fully coded as fascists, yet. Like, there was heroic John Williams music to underscore how heroic they were, the whole thing was a trap!
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Mar 17, 2018 23:51
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banned from Starbucks posted:the best thing would have been to have jar jar go save shmi then marry her. because jar jar being the step dad of vader would have owned Hmm...I agree with this.
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Mar 17, 2018 23:57
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UmOk posted:Honestly, I thought that the CGI in Last Jedi looked almost exactly like a cutscene from Superman 64 which debuted on the Nintendo 64 in 1999. I couldn't distinguish it from OG Starfox tbqh.
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Mar 18, 2018 00:03
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I thought it looked literally exactly the same as Pong. I yelled in the cinema 'is this a star wars film or a lets play of Pong?' So, I think it was the worst.
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Mar 18, 2018 00:08
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Spacebump posted:She likely had time between 1 and 2. Time to do what? Her own planet full of 1%ers was ignored by the Republic out of their own obstinacy and political rot. If institutionalized racism is a fact of life in the Star Wars galaxy (and it is), what is the option here? It's not as though Tatooine is some horrific backwater that people are unaware of. Panaka himself is fully aware of its reputation as being controlled by the hutts. For all its distance as an outer rim world, people seem utterly content to let it wallow with its stagnant chattel economy. Assuming Padme gives a poo poo about slavery (and I agree that I don't think it's much of a concern of hers), then appealing to the Republic to intervene would be like asking congressional republicans to step in and start supporting undocumented people in the United States. She's essentially an anti-war Republican in 1860. She abhors slavery, but would not be willing to risk the union to end it. Does that make her complicit in slavery? Of course. But does that mean that even if she were a radical abolitionist she'd have any good options as an elected official? No.
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Mar 18, 2018 00:38
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Jewmanji posted:Time to do what? Her own planet full of 1%ers was ignored by the Republic out of their own obstinacy and political rot. If institutionalized racism is a fact of life in the Star Wars galaxy (and it is), what is the option here? It's not as though Tatooine is some horrific backwater that people are unaware of. Panaka himself is fully aware of its reputation as being controlled by the hutts. For all its distance as an outer rim world, people seem utterly content to let it wallow with its stagnant chattel economy. Assuming Padme gives a poo poo about slavery (and I agree that I don't think it's much of a concern of hers), then appealing to the Republic to intervene would be like asking congressional republicans to step in and start supporting undocumented people in the United States. She's essentially an anti-war Republican in 1860. She abhors slavery, but would not be willing to risk the union to end it. Does that make her complicit in slavery? Of course. But does that mean that even if she were a radical abolitionist she'd have any good options as an elected official? No. No, I think the specific complaint is "Why doesn't she send ten guys there to deliver what is a pittance to her so she can buy the mother of the kid that helped save her planet." It would have to be ten guys because as you mentioned, everybody knows Tatooine is a shithole.
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Mar 18, 2018 00:41
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Doesn't Watto say that republic money is no good on Tatooine?
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Mar 18, 2018 00:43
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Trade out schmee for a couple protocol droids
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Mar 18, 2018 00:47
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Nodosaur posted:Doesn't Watto say that republic money is no good on Tatooine? Yeah, so? Like, exchange the currency for something Watto will accept.
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Mar 18, 2018 00:49
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Grendels Dad posted:No, I think the specific complaint is "Why doesn't she send ten guys there to deliver what is a pittance to her so she can buy the mother of the kid that helped save her planet." It would have to be ten guys because as you mentioned, everybody knows Tatooine is a shithole. I think that's a criticism of the Jedi, certainly, and central to what makes them so flawed in the prequels. For Padme, she mostly forgot about Anakin after Episode 1. He was so frozen in her past that she says "you'll always be that boy on Tatooine"- it hasn't even occurred to her that he's grown up, because she's not even thought about him. It's clear how sketched out she is from the outset when she at first doesn't recognize him, and then he says "not a day goes by that I don't think about you". Between TPM and AOTC they don't see each other once, and presumably Padme goes on with her life not caring about the mother of that kid that she spent a couple of days with ten years ago. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 18, 2018 |
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Mar 18, 2018 00:54
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Jewmanji posted:I think that's a criticism of the Jedi, certainly, and central to what makes them so flawed in the prequels. For Padme, she mostly forgot about Anakin after Episode 1. He was so frozen in her past that she says "you'll always be that boy on Tatooine"- it hasn't even occurred to her that he's grown up, because she's not even thought about him. It's clear how sketched out she is from the outset when she at first doesn't recognize him, and then he says "not a day goes by that I don't think about you". Between TPM and AOTC they don't see each other once, and presumably Padme goes on with her life not caring about the mother of that kid that she spent a couple of days with ten years ago. And that is the part that is hard to swallow. They just had a big parade where Anankin had a place of honor and we as the audience have missed the moment were Padme has just gone back to business and just "forgot". People don't usually forget that way. Plus, she could have, you know, bought Shmi/Shmee/Shmy right then and there. Like, the day of the parade.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:02
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Grendels Dad posted:And that is the part that is hard to swallow. They just had a big parade where Anankin had a place of honor and we as the audience have missed the moment were Padme has just gone back to business and just "forgot". People don't usually forget that way. Plus, she could have, you know, bought Shmi/Shmee/Shmy right then and there. Like, the day of the parade. I'm not sure I follow your logic. I think it's reasonable to expect that a head of state wouldn't spend much thought on a child that she spent a couple of days with. And how could she have bought Shmi's freedom on the day of the parade? It was established they didn't have any useful funds on them while on Tatooine, and they were in a race against time to save an entire city that was under siege, in which many more people were likely dying of starvation or what have you. Nevermind the fact that Qui-Gon was essentially the leader of that mission- Padme's primary concern was personal safety and then getting to Coruscant as fast as possible to ring the alarm bells. And certainly after the "parade", I would imagine that if she were truly a liberal egalitarian her priorities would be much more focused on outreach to the Gungans and reintegrating them into the land-based society of Naboo. Was she supposed to force Qui-Gon to fly back to Tatooine with her?
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Mar 18, 2018 01:13
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She controls an entire kingdom or whatever, she can spare a few guys to go fly a spare ship over to watto for trade. Its even funnier how the jedi are like hmm the mother of the chosen one from the sacred prophecy. whats she up to? oh word? eh whatevs
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Mar 18, 2018 01:26
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banned from Starbucks posted:whats she up to? oh word? eh whatevs That part is deliberate
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Mar 18, 2018 01:27
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Snowman_McK posted:I thought it looked literally exactly the same as Pong. I remarked, loudly, that it looked like a PS1 cutscene and people stood up and clapped.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:33
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banned from Starbucks posted:She controls an entire kingdom or whatever, she can spare a few guys to go fly a spare ship over to watto for trade. The priest from out of town really wants that boy and will do what it takes to get his hands on him.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:33
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That priest had upward mobility!
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Mar 18, 2018 01:39
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Milky Moor posted:I remarked, loudly, that it looked like a PS1 cutscene and people stood up and clapped. And that Star Wars fan's name was Albert Einstein.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:46
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I really don't want to fall back on the "George Lucas is stupid" argument, but it's more that he treats his in-universe justifications as absolute without always considering the wider implications. And so you get no standard of exchange for republic credits (if there was such a system, Qui Gon would have used it and not bothered with the pod race scheme), or Watto not even willing to deal even though it's very much in his best interest and profit. It's more important to the author that Shmi and Anakin be kept apart.
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Mar 18, 2018 01:47
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Jewmanji posted:I'm not sure I follow your logic. I think it's reasonable to expect that a head of state wouldn't spend much thought on a child that she spent a couple of days with. And how could she have bought Shmi's freedom on the day of the parade? It was established they didn't have any useful funds on them while on Tatooine, and they were in a race against time to save an entire city that was under siege, in which many more people were likely dying of starvation or what have you. Nevermind the fact that Qui-Gon was essentially the leader of that mission- Padme's primary concern was personal safety and then getting to Coruscant as fast as possible to ring the alarm bells. And certainly after the "parade", I would imagine that if she were truly a liberal egalitarian her priorities would be much more focused on outreach to the Gungans and reintegrating them into the land-based society of Naboo. Was she supposed to force Qui-Gon to fly back to Tatooine with her? Okay, the part I bolded is the part where your post gets a bit weird and doesn't quite stop being weird. I think that we can safely state that Padme did more than "spend a few days" with that kid, they weren't on a random excursion together. Even if the kid hadn't played a role in saving her planet, which he did, I would have thought he would get some sort of reward. I guess he got to marry her some 15 years later, but at that point he really cared about his mom, and she knew that. Then you mention the race against time, and I'm not sure why. We are at the end of Episode I. The race is over, the Naboo are free.I'm not sure what part of the argument you have missed that made you think people were complaining that Shmi wasn't freed right then and there. Because yeah, freeing one slave would have taken five minutes out of her day. It's a lovely complaint because Padme would still be largely ignorant to the horrors of slavery, but since it's kind of a major plot point of the second movie they could have done a better job at explaining why exactly Padme or anyone else didn't have the means or desire to save the mother of that one brave boy they all love so much.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:00
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Nodosaur posted:I really don't want to fall back on the "George Lucas is stupid" argument, but it's more that he treats his in-universe justifications as absolute without always considering the wider implications. And so you get no standard of exchange for republic credits (if there was such a system, Qui Gon would have used it and not bothered with the pod race scheme), or Watto not even willing to deal even though it's very much in his best interest and profit. It's more important to the author that Shmi and Anakin be kept apart. I very much disagree that the film would be improved by getting into the minutia of currency conversion. I do, however, agree that things happen in stories happen because the author chooses to have them happen.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:01
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That's what I mean, yes.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:03
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Milky Moor posted:I remarked, loudly, that it looked like a PS1 cutscene and people stood up and clapped. I screamed, nay, bellowed, that this was clearly hand drawn by a child. A retarded child. With deformed hands. And no fingers. And only one arm. And then it turned into an MST3K riff fest. And that Riff fest was Karl Marx.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:24
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Grendels Dad posted:they all love so much. I think this is the part that doesn't make sense. Their "relationship" in TPM is completely asymmetric. The movies spell this out for you. Padme's existence means a great deal to Anakin from the moment he lays on her. To Padme, he's just some kid that she forgets about in the midst of running a planet. It's not intended to be a comment on her ambivalence towards slavery, it's a comment on how unbalanced and unhealthy their relationship was.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:26
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Jewmanji posted:I think this is the part that doesn't make sense. Their "relationship" in TPM is completely asymmetric. The movies spell this out for you. Padme's existence means a great deal to Anakin from the moment he lays on her. To Padme, he's just some kid that she forgets about in the midst of running a planet. It's not intended to be a comment on her ambivalence towards slavery, it's a comment on how unbalanced and unhealthy their relationship was. Dude, he's standing right beside her at the parade, one of the last images of the movie is her smiling at him. She takes great personal interest in him throughout the movie. Yes, she comforts him a lot, but how exactly should that keep her from doing something that would comfort him some more and also express her gratitude towards him and that other person that helped them out on Tatooine? The imbalance only fully comes into play when they meet again in Episode II, when all this development poo poo has already hit the fan offscreen. But right at the end of Episode I, we have no idea why she couldn't have bought Shmi. The way you frame it, a flock of bureaucrats bore down on Padme immediately after the end of the parade, which is great but ultimately happened on the level of Wookiepedia stuff, we just weren't shown.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:44
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No one had to go buy Shmi's freedom because old man Lars did it. She's "free" when she is abducted and murdered by Sand People. "Why didn't Padme/the Jedi buy her?" is the dumbest loving question.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:47
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People seem to want their heroes to be slaveowners in order to keep people safe, and stop Anakin from going on murderous rampages.
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Mar 18, 2018 02:49
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sassassin posted:People seem to want their heroes to be slaveowners in order to keep people safe, and stop Anakin from going on murderous rampages. People want their characters to have some consistency between movies so gently caress off with statements like this.
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Mar 18, 2018 03:05
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sassassin posted:No one had to go buy Shmi's freedom because old man Lars did it. a creepy old man bought her and then married her. she never had to gently caress watto
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Mar 18, 2018 03:06
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Grendels Dad posted:Dude, he's standing right beside her at the parade, one of the last images of the movie is her smiling at him. She takes great personal interest in him throughout the movie. Yes, she comforts him a lot, but how exactly should that keep her from doing something that would comfort him some more and also express her gratitude towards him and that other person that helped them out on Tatooine? He's already in Jedi garb by the time of the parade. The Jedi wasted no time in adopting him. So what, she's going to go conduct some extraordinary rendition for this kid who has already been taken in by the most powerful cult in the galaxy? I didn't realize that standing on the same stage at a parade = BFFs. Apparently neither did she. You think Lucas' intent here was to show that Padme apparently "takes great personal interest in him" but incoherently doesn't care about his mother withering away in slavery? That makes more sense than what I laid out? That they simply never communicated after TPM, as established by the movies, so she probably got distracted with rebuilding a invaded city and living her life? She would be safe in assuming that if Anakin wanted, he could just appeal to the Jedi to help him out. For all she knows/cares, that's exactly what's going to happen. What concern is it of hers?
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Mar 18, 2018 03:09
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Jewmanji posted:He's already in Jedi garb by the time of the parade. The Jedi wasted no time in adopting him. So what, she's going to go conduct some extraordinary rendition for this kid who has already been taken in by the most powerful cult in the galaxy? I didn't realize that standing on the same stage at a parade = BFFs. Apparently neither did she. You think Lucas' intent here was to show that Padme apparently "takes great personal interest in him" but incoherently doesn't care about his mother withering away in slavery? That makes more sense than what I laid out, that they simply never communicated after TPM, as established by the movies, so she probably got distracted with rebuilding a invaded city and living her life? Yeah, actually it does. Or at least that is where the problems that some people have with the movies arise, Padme is shown in Episode I as this caring individual that takes in this lonely boy and has him by his side at the end of a glorious victory that he contributed to, and just stops giving a gently caress. Even the tiniest of fucks. No fucks at all, because she was too busy. Is it really so incredibly difficult for you to imagine how people might find that development, which mostly happens offscreen, jarring?
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Mar 18, 2018 03:14
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hot take: there's no amount of reasoning for overlooking slavery that will make it not an immoral action
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Mar 18, 2018 03:17
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Brother Entropy posted:hot take: there's no amount of reasoning for overlooking slavery that will make it not an immoral action Hot take II: nobody is looking to absolve anybody for anything in these movies, they are all assholes.
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Mar 18, 2018 03:18
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Brother Entropy posted:hot take: there's no amount of reasoning for overlooking slavery that will make it not an immoral action Luke flat out calls them hypocrites
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Mar 18, 2018 03:19
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Grendels Dad posted:Yeah, actually it does. Or at least that is where the problems that some people have with the movies arise, Padme is shown in Episode I as this caring individual that takes in this lonely boy and has him by his side at the end of a glorious victory that he contributed to, and just stops giving a gently caress. Even the tiniest of fucks. No fucks at all, because she was too busy. Is it really so incredibly difficult for you to imagine how people might find that development, which mostly happens offscreen, jarring? It might, if your description of what happened in The Phantom Menace were accurate. Like, literally some of her first lines in Attack of the Clones are, "you'll always be that little boy I knew on Tatooine". It's not supposed to be subtle. She forgot about him, and that anguishes Anakin. It's not because she's heartless, it's because of the relative difference in circumstance for each of them when they first met. He met an older woman briefly who he confused as a mother/wife figure, and she saw him as some Oliver Twist character. The fact that she has a much warmer welcome for Obi-Wan Kenobi than Anakin Skywalker, despite spending more time with Anakin in TPM than she did with Obi-Wan, should tell you how she was an adult with adult relationships in TPM, of which Anakin wasn't a part. That notion is played up in ROTS when Anakin becomes jealous of Obi-Wan.
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Mar 18, 2018 03:22
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Jewmanji posted:It might, if your description of what happened in The Phantom Menace were accurate. I'm afraid you are jumping to far ahead. It's not about how she reacts ten years down the line to a guy who wants to bone her, it's how she reacts to a kid that helped her, by saving a woman she met a few days ago from abject poverty. Episode I shows that she would be the kind of person to do this, and then she doesn't.
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Mar 18, 2018 03:27
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If she's didn't free the gungans she's not freeing schmi.
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Mar 18, 2018 03:28
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Grendels Dad posted:I'm afraid you are jumping to far ahead. It's not about how she reacts ten years down the line to a guy who wants to bone her, it's how she reacts to a kid that helped her, by saving a woman she met a few days ago from abject poverty. Episode I shows that she would be the kind of person to do this, and then she doesn't. Because then the story is of a woman who cares so deeply about this boy she's known for a few days that she goes on a rescue mission to find his mother (despite the fact that he is under the care of the Jedi who are much better suited to this type of thing), and then promptly forgets about him, which wouldn't make much sense. Lucas needs Anakin's mom to be on Tatooine when AOTC starts. In order for that to happen, he needs to write the film in such a way that Padme and Anakin go their separate ways once TPM's credits roll. Is that essentially reverse-engineering the stoy to fit a goal Lucas had in mind? Sure. Does that make the characterization inconsistent? No. Anakin wears clothes at the end of TPM that say "I'm ok now, I have a family". Notably, Anakin isn't standing next to Padme at the parade, he's standing next to Obi-Wan, his new father. Why would Padme assume that Anakin needs her help, especially if he was immediately whisked off to Coruscant right after the parade or whatever?
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Mar 18, 2018 03:33
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Because the Star Wars prequels are about the origins of the Empire, they are concerned with the reasons why well-meaning and sympathetic people might be blind to the problems that brought down the Republic.
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Mar 18, 2018 03:45
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Nodosaur posted:I really don't want to fall back on the "George Lucas is stupid" argument, but it's more that he treats his in-universe justifications as absolute without always considering the wider implications. And so you get no standard of exchange for republic credits (if there was such a system, Qui Gon would have used it and not bothered with the pod race scheme), or Watto not even willing to deal even though it's very much in his best interest and profit. It's more important to the author that Shmi and Anakin be kept apart. That's hardly a plot hole, Tatooine is such a remote backwater that, early in the very first film, Luke says it's the place farthest from the bright center to the universe. Not to mention Watto probably doesn't want the Hutts asking him where he suddenly got a bunch of Republic credits. They're hostile jurisdictions.
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Mar 18, 2018 05:16
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