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dude Peter had a temper... he was prob the most legit imo
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Mar 19, 2018 09:23
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euphronius posted:Jesus does not say he's forsaken. That was just the title of a psalm which focuses on devotion . he quoted it in his last breath before he died on the cross bro but yea it was a quote or w/e, and i cant remember what gospel that mentions it but it says that he did it to fulfill the prophecy or whatev but i'm pretty sure rian johnson didn't give a gently caress about any of this when he was writing the script. so if being jesus means that much to you, then idk it's been done so many times in so many movies I think we should be beyond that crap and maybe find other archetypes to look at? all of these movies are about Rey, not Luke.
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Mar 19, 2018 11:02
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BarronsArtGallery posted:dude Peter had a temper... he was prob the most legit imo Peter and Paul sniping at each other is kind of the best. It's like two coworkers who have a boss they respect telling them to get along, so they try to acknowledge that the other's contributing, and actually good at what they do... But then they still have to mention the misfiled TPS reports. Just so people know what they're dealing with, you understand.
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Mar 19, 2018 13:53
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The gospel writer is referencing psalm 22. The audience of the gospel would know psalm 22 and understood it's significance. It's not actually a quote of Jesus lmao.
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Mar 19, 2018 14:05
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People are trying to deny Christ's suffering to prove that the death of Luke Skywalker from Star Wars was Christ-like.
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Mar 19, 2018 14:42
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Execute Psalm 66
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Mar 19, 2018 15:13
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem to be confusing "spiritual" with "magical". Notice how you're equating the very different concepts of being a seer and being a Biblical prophet. If you want to draw a distinction, you're going to have to define it. Merlin literally was a prophet, however, and his role in the mythological story of Britain's "true king" is not only analogous to that of the Biblical prophets in the story of Israel, but to a great degree inspired by them.
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Mar 19, 2018 15:23
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Hodgepodge posted:If you want to draw a distinction, you're going to have to define it. Merlin literally was a prophet, however, and his role in the mythological story of Britain's "true king" is not only analogous to that of the Biblical prophets in the story of Israel, but to a great degree inspired by them. Your whole argumentation is based on a combination of extreme vagueness and painful literalism. For example, let's look at your argument about Merlin: - Merlin is a magician who can see the future through clairvoyance - People who can see the future are known as prophets - Prophets are important figures in Judeo-Christian tradition - Therefore, Merlin is an essentially Judeo-Christian figure - So if Obi-Wan is a Merlin-figure, Obi-Wan too is Judeo-Christian This leads to ignoring very crucial specifics, like the very simple and basic fact that Biblical prophets weren't magicians, but first and foremost people chosen to speak on God's behalf. This is what you happens when you're not shown good movies like Prince of Egypt as a child.
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Mar 19, 2018 16:23
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euphronius posted:The gospel writer is referencing psalm 22. The audience of the gospel would know psalm 22 and understood it's significance. actually, he literally quotes it, and it is noted that he is doing so to fulfill the prophecy i'm not even loving religious anymore but you're so wrong about this it's funny as hell
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Mar 19, 2018 16:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:People are trying to deny Christ's suffering to prove that the death of Luke Skywalker from Star Wars was Christ-like. nobody gives a poo poo about jesus literally gently caress all your space christianty. save that poo poo for the Dune remake(s)
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Mar 19, 2018 16:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Your whole argumentation is based on a combination of extreme vagueness and painful literalism. No. The mythical character associated with the legend of Arthur first appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Prophetiae Merlini, a book of prophecies attributed to eponymous Merlin, who was based loosely on the Welsh prophet Myrddin Wyllt. Monmouth later included this work in his Historia Regum Britanniae, which became the definitive psuedohistory of Britain. I've actually talked to people who still believed that Britain was settled by the retreating Trojans, an idea originating with Monmouth, and his Merlin and his supposed prophecies were still influential in the politics of the the Union of the Crowns of 1603. Meanwhile, the character was incorporated into the myth of Arthur by Robert de Boron in his poem Merlin, wherein he is a cambion, a half-demon conceived in order to be the anti-Christ, but saved by baptism and able to receive prophecy from God. I'd go on, but frankly, you haven't the first clue what the gently caress you're talking about and I've yet to see you post anything that demonstrates that effort of any sort in conversation is anything but wasted on you.
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Mar 19, 2018 17:15
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Hodgepodge posted:No. The mythical character associated with the legend of Arthur first appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Prophetiae Merlini, a book of prophecies attributed to eponymous Merlin, who was based loosely on the Welsh prophet Myrddin Wyllt. Monmouth later included this work in his Historia Regum Britanniae, which became the definitive psuedohistory of Britain. I've actually talked to people who still believed that Britain was settled by the retreating Trojans, an idea originating with Monmouth, and his Merlin and his supposed prophecies were still influential in the politics of the the Union of the Crowns of 1603. Again, your argumentation depends on a combination of vagueness and literalism. You're saying that Merlin is a Christian figure because he is associated with Christian authors and politicians. In truth he's an essentially pagan figure with a Christian veneer. Hodgepodge posted:I'd go on, but frankly, you haven't the first clue what the gently caress you're talking about and I've yet to see you post anything that demonstrates that effort of any sort in conversation is anything but wasted on you. That's not very convincing. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 19:01
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Again, your argumentation depends on a combination of vagueness and literalism. You're saying that Merlin is a Christian figure because he is associated with Christian authors and politicians. In truth he's an essentially pagan figure with a Christian veneer. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Merlin is a character who was invented by Christians in the Middle Ages. The legends of King Arthur incorporated pre-Christian pagan myths, but these were heavily Christianized. The idea that these are principly pagan stories is a recent invention of pop-history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_of_Britain posted:The medieval tale of Arthur and his knights is full of Christian themes; those themes involve the destruction of human plans for virtue by the moral failures of their characters, and the quest for an important Christian relic. Finally, the relationships between the characters invited treatment in the tradition of courtly love, such as Lancelot and Guinevere, or Tristan and Iseult. In more recent years, the trend has been to attempt to link the tales of King Arthur and his knights with Celtic mythology, usually in highly romanticized, early 20th century reconstructed versions. Your original statement charged that Obi-wan, through connection with Merlin, was non-spiritual due to a concern with politics, an idea which is incoherent in a Medieval and Early Modern Christian context. You vaguely link this with the idea that he is pagan, which you seem to be using more on the assumption that it is discrediting than any understanding of what that might mean thematically. Obi-wan is, of course, a Jedi, not a Christian or a Pagan. The spirituality of Star Wars is a vague New Age animism. It nevertheless draws on Christian themes. This is to a great degree through the lens of Joseph Campbell's work, with its famous influence on Star Wars, which draws heavily on the Quest for the Holy Grail. In that context, Obi-wan is a Christian figure specifically because he is based on Merlin, who is one of the major figures of Medieval Christian literature. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 20:03
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Volountarily choosing a futile death in the face of oppression over life has a romantic luster for many cultures and can send a powerful message. Just think about those burning monk images etched into your retinas. Doubly so because life is so precious. Disney would never let such a revolutionary act take place in a blockbuster movie.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:10
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Hodgepodge posted:I'm not sure what you're getting at. Merlin is a character who was invented by Christians in the Middle Ages. The legends of King Arthur incorporated pre-Christian pagan myths, but these were heavily Christianized. The idea that these are principly pagan stories is a recent invention of pop-history: Just because something is invented by a Christian doesn't make it Christian. Merlin represents the pagan ideas of soothsaying and sorcery rationalized as Christian and expressed in a Christian context. Hodgepodge posted:Your original statement charged that Obi-wan, through connection with Merlin, was non-spiritual due to a concern with politics, an idea which is incoherent in a Medieval and Early Modern Christian context. You vaguely link this with the idea that he is pagan, which you seem to be using more on the assumption that it is discrediting someone than any understanding of what that might mean thematically. Obi-Wan in A New Hope is a court magician type wholly concerned with power and politics, like Merlin. He's manipulative and violent, any spirituality is just form. The connection to New Age-ism is apt, because Obi-Wan is a huckster. "The Force has a strong influence on the weak-minded." He even disappears instead of suffering martyrdom. e: Hell, "New Age Animism" would in fact be an approximation of paganism. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 20:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Just because something is invented by a Christian doesn't make it Christian. Merlin represents the pagan ideas of soothsaying and sorcery rationalized as Christian and expressed in a Christian context. You offer no evidence other than painfully ignorant assertions, and then complain if anyone else fails to rebut them in sufficient detail while conveniently ignoring repeated proofs that one "fact" or another you championed is in fact the precise opposite of correct. Was demonstrating that the character in fact was invented in a book whose name translates to "the Prophecies of Merlin" too vague? If there is some hard conceptual distinction between "the pagan ideas of soothsaying and sorcery" you would like to make, based on evidence, please make it. I would say that Christians accepting him as a prophet for centuries, both in myth and in actual politics, is the best, and only criteria, to determine that he is a legitimate prophet. Obviously, he was a fake- he didn't even exist. In any meaningful empirical terms, prophecy is not a real thing and there are no real prophets. However, the faculty of prophecy has always been central to his character. He, after all, crowns the true King of England- and remember that the king rules with god's authority in this context. Note for comparison, that there is little evidence that King Solomon (also a prophet and magician) existed outside of the Bible itself. For you, the burden of proof is always on another. The thing about you isn't that you're stupid. You don't have that excuse. You're smug and lazy. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 20:43
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Hodgepodge posted:Was demonstrating that the character in fact was invented in a book whose name translates to "the Prophecies of Merlin" too vague? If there is some hard conceptual distinction between "the pagan ideas of soothsaying and sorcery" you would like to make, based on evidence, please make it. Obviously, he was a fake- he didn't even exist. However, the faculty of prophecy has always been central to his character. He, after all, crowns the true King of England- and remember that the king rules with god's authority in this context. Soothsaying and sorcery are un-Christian, pagan, heathen. The Bible rather clearly denounces them. That Christians might nevertheless respect sorcery doesn't make sorcery Christian. Again, you're arguing for literalism and proof by association. There was a book called Prophecies, therefore Merlin is a true prophet. Obi-Wan is even less spiritual than Merlin, since Obi-Wan is just using mutant powers. Hodgepodge posted:For you, the burden of proof is always on another. The thing about you isn't that you're stupid. You don't have that excuse. You're smug and lazy. That's hardly credible.
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Mar 19, 2018 20:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Soothsaying and sorcery are un-Christian, pagan, heathen. The Bible rather clearly denounces them. That Christians might nevertheless respect sorcery doesn't make sorcery Christian. What criteria are you using to decide that Merlin was a false prophet? It's an important distinction, and contemporary sources accepted his prophecy as authentic- in some cases. Of course, there were depictions of him as simply an evil sorcerer as well. Care to weigh the evidence? Or to comment on the different interpretations and how they apply?
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Mar 19, 2018 21:00
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I'm pretty sure Christians appropriated a lot of pagan things, up to and including our major holidays. Merlin may not be religious canon but to say he's not a character appropriated by and interpreted through a Christian lens is missing the mark. Also, in the context of Star Wars, "mutant powers" and spirituality are one and the same. That was Lucas's exact intention with the midichlorians, as clumsy as their introduction was.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:06
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Nodosaur posted:I'm pretty sure Christians appropriated a lot of pagan things, up to and including our major holidays. Merlin may not be religious canon but to say he's not a character appropriated by and interpreted through a Christian lens is missing the mark. In a sense. The powers have, at least, a biological element. The spirituality is required to make use of them. That's why the Jedi teachings are powerful and it is dangerous to teach Anakin. The key is not to make the mistake of assuming that "spiritual" is synonymous with "good." The Sith also have spiritual teachings, based on cultivating hate and anger to accrue personal power. The Jedi teachings are ultimately portrayed as ethically correct, but this is only proven by Luke and Vader in the Throne Room scene. The Jedi Temple, on the other hand, was an institution incapable of producing individuals able to live in accordance with Jedi ethics. The strongest warning of this was Yoda losing his ability to see the future- this was not a symptom of a midichlorian deficiency, but of personal and collective failure on the part of the Jedi.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:19
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Hodgepodge posted:What criteria are you using to decide that Merlin was a false prophet? He's a fictional character, unlike Biblical prophets 
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Mar 19, 2018 21:20
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I'm not really disagreeing with you Hodgepodge, I'm responding to some of BravestOfLamps' points about Obi wan.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:21
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More relevantly, 'sacrifices self' is an insanely insufficient criterion for a character to be Christ like, cf iron man nuking the whales
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Mar 19, 2018 21:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:He's a fictional character, unlike Biblical prophets drat    (I did edit a mention of Solomon by way of comparison in a previous post). ungulateman posted:More relevantly, 'sacrifices self' is an insanely insufficient criterion for a character to be Christ like, cf iron man nuking the whales The real criteria is dying in front of Luke. It's a little known fact that Luke Skywalker was present at Calvary.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:25
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This is an extremely pro-click... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gQjYHKChEg Estimated FO personnel killed ~1.4 million I dunno the estimates for the Resistance killed? Prob barely over 1,000? Granted it was like 99.5% of the Resistance but w/e...
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Mar 21, 2018 22:29
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BarronsArtGallery posted:Estimated FO personnel killed ~1.4 million  But is that even anywhere close to how many the Rebellion snuffed out between ANH and ROTJ?
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Mar 21, 2018 22:40
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I would imagine the body count on Starkiller Base is pretty high. That thing was a literal fuckin' planet and had bases all over it.
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Mar 21, 2018 22:42
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Lol at counting Phasma
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Mar 21, 2018 23:31
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Gonz posted:I would imagine the body count on Starkiller Base is pretty high. That thing was a literal fuckin' planet and had bases all over it. they're only counting from TLJ, broski
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Mar 21, 2018 23:42
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Gonz posted:I would imagine the body count on Starkiller Base is pretty high. That thing was a literal fuckin' planet and had bases all over it. Also many intelligent native aliens.
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Mar 21, 2018 23:43
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just lmfao when Holdo pushes the thrust to light speed and the body count* just goes through the roof *estimated
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Mar 21, 2018 23:50
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Here's TFA btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa6DavbfJTo
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Mar 21, 2018 23:55
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Since the horizontal Snoke ship is the mobile capital of the FO the Holdo maneuver is basically the flip side of blowing up the Hosnian system. It would be cool if Episode IX was fought with the proverbial sticks and stones.
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Mar 21, 2018 23:58
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oh poo poo ROTJ... 2.12 million Imperial scum killed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFjGTiTlzHg I love these fuckin vids but i'm not watching the prequels edit: lowest number was ofc Empire -- 108 killed. lowest body count is the best movie, who'da thunk it. Preston Waters fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 00:09
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I don't think that everyone died on the FO ship, honestly. Much of the base seemed to have functional life support. You can't even claim everyone in the vicinity of the cleave is dead because Finn and Rose were close to ground zero of that and they made it out okay.
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Mar 22, 2018 00:10
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Nodosaur posted:I don't think that everyone died on the FO ship, honestly. Much of the base seemed to have functional life support. You can't even claim everyone in the vicinity of the cleave is dead because Finn and Rose were close to ground zero of that and they made it out okay. yea from what I saw it wasn't the Supremacy that racked up the death count. It added a significant contribution, but it was everything in its wake that got absolutely loving shredded by the shrapnel that make the thing skyrocket...
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Mar 22, 2018 00:16
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Nodosaur posted:I don't think that everyone died on the FO ship, honestly. Much of the base seemed to have functional life support. You can't even claim everyone in the vicinity of the cleave is dead because Finn and Rose were close to ground zero of that and they made it out okay. They all died.
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Mar 22, 2018 02:12
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CelticPredator posted:Finn blows up the weapon. Rose crashes into Finn to stop him from sacrificing himself. Then what. They'd be trapped in front of a line of FO Walkers without any way back to their base. Or at least that's what they knew at the time. Fortunately, teleportation.
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Mar 22, 2018 02:18
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jesus christ this thread gives me hemorrhoids "teleportation" how about you teleporthefuckout of here because no one cares about nitpick bullshit. It was a bold movie and better than the prequels. Also watching the behind the scenes, it really makes me furious that Hamill wansn't up for Best Supporting Actor. He fundamentally disagreed with the character as written, but he loving sucked it up and gave a phenomenal performance. He literally cried and collapsed while filming the Jedi temple scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnAqVdbpKt4 dude is a loving incredible actor. loving robbed. Bigly.
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Mar 22, 2018 04:30
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Mark Hamill isn't really that good of an actor, actually. The role wasn't exactly challenging, either.
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Mar 22, 2018 05:56
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