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It's got nothing to do with the character and everything to do with the effects. It looks like they Mocapped Rudd and had him act like he was giant, which is not what you ever do to imply size and mass.
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Mar 19, 2018 21:54
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Burkion posted:It looks like they Mocapped Rudd and had him act like he was giant, which is not what you ever do to imply size and mass. But mocapping Paul Rudd is what you do if you want to take advantage of the best comedian in the movie playing a comic relief character, not a figure of awe and majesty. That he comes across as literally an overgrown kid is, like, the point. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 21:57
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He's both the best source of comedy and terror.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:03
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Sir Kodiak posted:But mocapping Paul Rudd is what you do if you want to take advantage of the best comedian in the movie playing a comic relief character, not a figure of awe and majesty. That he comes across as literally an overgrown kid is, like, the point. You keep missing the point You keep missing the actual problem with it The problem is that, IN UNIVERSE, his movements make no sense. Pretend you're moving in slow motion, just a tad. That's what it looks like. If he was acting like an overexcited kid, he'd be going faster. His movements would be more fluid. The point is that he doesn't look like an overexcited kid, an overgrown anything. He doesn't move like it, doesn't act like it. Superficially he looks that way because there's a giant CGI him running around But the way it feels, the way it acts and the way it moves, it's a big dumb balloon that instantly takes me out of the scene every time. It's flat out wrong. It's like Imagine if you showed some one a video of some one swimming, only they immediately start doing poo poo that just does not work for some one who's underwater. It's that kind of thing. On a sheer basic, visual level it looks stupid and throws you off if you know what you're looking at. Honey I Blew Up the Kid did it better.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:06
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Why doesn't it work in-universe? Has there been a kaiju-sized thing in the MCU before?
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Mar 19, 2018 22:07
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LesterGroans posted:Why doesn't it work in-universe? Has there been a kaiju-sized thing in the MCU before? Because as something that's supposed to be in the shot with the rest of them, it's glaringly wrong and doesn't function the way it should. Also yes, the giant whale things from Avengers.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:09
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Burkion posted:it's a big dumb balloon A character who can knock a guy out with a punch when he's the size of an ant should be like a balloon when he's big because, unlike Godzilla, he literally is just blown up.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:12
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Sir Kodiak posted:A character who can knock a guy out with a punch when he's the size of an ant should be like a balloon when he's big because, unlike Godzilla, he literally is just blown up. Then he shouldn't have the mass to do half the poo poo he does. The moment he touches anyone he should get blown across the field. It's a big dumb thing and if you can ignore how it blatantly does not even REMOTELY look right, good on you. I can't. Giant effect work has been ingrained in my brain. if the gag was that he DIDN'T have the mass needed and DID get blown away by a strong gust of wind, that's be fantastic. That's not what they were going for. It's a glaring flaw in the film and, for me personally, ruins the whole effect.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:13
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Burkion posted:Then he shouldn't have the mass to do half the poo poo he does. That's the beauty of Pym Particles.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:14
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Sir Kodiak posted:That's the beauty of Pym Particles. Can't have it both ways.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:15
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Burkion posted:Can't have it both ways. Having it both ways is precisely Ant-Man's deal.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:16
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Sir Kodiak posted:Having it both ways is precisely Ant-Man's deal. Except it literally isn't because it literally doesn't work in the movie. And it's not intentional, it's just straight up a gently caress up. It's like some one showing us a sunny sky and saying it's loving midnight. Not even day for night, just straight up sun in the sky midday and saying its midnight. I've explained why to you on every level I can, move on.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:19
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If you think about any of the superheroes for more than a second, then none of them make sense, Ant-Man isn't unique.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:22
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Burkion why don't your write in paragraphs ever?  Everything is a single line. Like this. And then you get mad. But you have excellent knowledge on kaiju movies. Your posts though are hard to read.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:28
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Burkion posted:I've explained why to you on every level I can, move on. Your explanation is fundamentally that you don't like the aesthetics of it, and I'm happy to accept that, but you seem to want to make it into something more, which is silly. There is no one right way to depict a man who blows himself up to be a giant, and the Ant-Man movie is clear that Pym Particles disentangle mass from force in weird ways, making a giant guy who moves sluggishly, but is functionally strong when tossing people about consistent. Which is what actually matters a bit, not that it doesn't match the preferred Godzilla movies.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:28
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How the hell does Superman fly? How does Thor control his hammer after he throws it? Why doesn't Batman's arms get torn out of his sockets when he swings from a building?
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Mar 19, 2018 22:31
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I don't give a poo poo about kaiju movies and didn't think twice about Rudd-man. It's me, the average viewer.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:31
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Burkion's not talking about his powers, they're talking about how the director chose to go about putting those on the screen and how his speed relative to the other characters on screen doesn't work and some folks pick up on that.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:31
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Vintersorg posted:Burkion why don't your write in paragraphs ever? Usually it's just to break up my own thoughts. I generally type in paragraphs when I'm going more on a specific subject but it bothers me too much to look at when it goes past a certain point. Generally I save it for when I'm doing a write up on something in particular that requires them. bushisms.txt posted:Burkion's not talking about his powers, they're talking about how the director chose to go about putting those on the screen and how his speed relative to the other characters on screen doesn't work and some folks pick up on that. Thank you. This is it exactly.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:36
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bushisms.txt posted:Burkion's not talking about his powers, they're talking about how the director chose to go about putting those on the screen and how his speed relative to the other characters on screen doesn't work and some folks pick up on that. Nah, he's made several posts about powers and how they don't fit how things should work "in universe" and no posts that actually dissect the visuals, which is a shame because I'd be entirely interested in reading the latter.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:36
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Sir Kodiak posted:Nah, he's made several posts about powers and how they don't fit how things should work "in universe" and no posts that actually dissect the visuals, which is a shame because I'd be entirely interested in reading the latter. Burkion posted:It's got nothing to do with the character and everything to do with the effects. Burkion posted:
Burkion posted:Because as something that's supposed to be in the shot with the rest of them, it's glaringly wrong and doesn't function the way it should. Burkion posted:It's a big dumb thing and if you can ignore how it blatantly does not even REMOTELY look right, good on you. Burkion posted:Except it literally isn't because it literally doesn't work in the movie. I'm not the best at clarifying what I mean, but I think I make it very clear I am not talking about what the actual character's powers do. At least I thought I did.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:40
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"They immediately start doing poo poo that just does not work for some one who's underwater" strikes me as being precisely about what powers should and should not do, so I think we're not syncing up on what we mean by that. If someone says they're talking about "putting those [powers] on the screen," I would expect to be reading about cinematography, relative motion within the frame, you know, specifics about what's going on on-screen that go beyond describing the diegetic events being represented on that screen. Not trying to be an rear end here, just clarify how this is coming across to me. I'm happy to get a better understanding of what you're getting at. edit: And are you really going to claim that quotes 3 and 4 of yours are actually explaining anything? It's okay to just flatly state an opinion, but that's all those are. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 22:43
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honey i blew up the kid woulda been a lot better if it ended up like tetsuo.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:46
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Yeah. Honestly, I totally get why someone wouldn't like the Giant Man stuff, and I'd like to read more about why it visually doesn't work relative to the other characters in the film. I just think, Burkion, you're peppering your posts with a lot of definitives about how something large should or shouldn't move, which don't really seem to apply other than personal preference.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:48
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I meant that in a way that If you show some one underwater in a movie, like, just anyone. But they start moving like they're in zero gs instead, no propulsion or anything just instant turning and spinning, no drag or physics, it would look wrong. That's what it looks like to me. I didn't mean for that to come off as anything related to his powers, just the physics of how he moved. To go into that a bit more... The way giant effects are generally done with live action things, you film something overcranked and then you slow it down after the fact. The thing you are filming does not act any differently than they normally would. This is what gives you the illusion of weight and mass. The problem is that, they didn't do that with this effect. It looks like he's moving in slow motion while everyone else is moving like normal, which causes a huge disconnect that I cannot get past.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:49
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Burkion posted:I meant that in a way that The physics of how he moves is controlled by his powers. What it looks like for him to move as a giant man is entirely dependent on the powers that make him Giant-Man. Like, you wouldn't argue that Falcon being depicted as gliding around is independent of his power being a big pair of wings, which is why he more slowly buffets himself to a stop as compared to Iron Man abruptly stopping himself with a blast from his hand thingies, etc., etc. Like, yeah, they didn't film him the way they film Godzilla. He's not Godzilla. He's a guy who blew himself up like a balloon with super-science. If you shoot Black Widow going swimming, it should look like a person swimming. If you were to shoot Vision going swimming, maybe it should look weird, because he can move his body directly with his mind, adjust mass at will, etc.
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Mar 19, 2018 22:59
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Sir Kodiak posted:The physics of how he moves is controlled by his powers. What it looks like for him to move as a giant man is entirely dependent on the powers that make him Giant-Man. Like, you wouldn't argue that Falcon being depicted as gliding around is independent of his power being a big pair of wings, which is why he more slowly buffets himself to a stop as compared to Iron Man abruptly stopping himself with a blast from his hand thingies, etc., etc. This is our disconnect. You keep justifying the flaw of the movie with the powers of the work. If this was how his powers worked, he wouldn't be able to jump around and stuff while super tiny. He'd be stuck to the ground, too dense to move properly. Pym's powers keeps his size relatively scaled. The reason why Godzilla is shot the way he is isn't because of some style thing. It's because that's how a big thing moves. It's just basic physics. We know how giant things move, and it isn't 'as if they're being shot in slow mo'. It's just even more obvious to me because I can see what they're doing wrong. When you pretend to be giant, you want to act like you're moving slower. The reality would be, if you were suddenly giant, you would be no slower than you are at normal size. Elephants aren't any slower than Cheetas despite being that much bigger. It's a simple break in reality that I can't justify because the actions he has in the movie says he should be giant. He's not treated like a joke that's too big for his own good, without enough mass to back it up. He's treated like he should be this giant thing that's a nightmare to fight. He just doesn't look right at all and not in any intentional way. Just imagine if Vision started moving, for no real reason, at half a tick slower than the other characters, but they still act like he's normal. It'd be distracting and kind of odd. If you can look past it, great. I can't and it's always going to stick out to me. EDIT: To further clarify the Godzilla point- Tsuburaya was a genius of practical special effects work. He chose what he did because it was the one word that I most dread bringing up in this thread above all others- realistic. The way to shoot giant things is the way he pioneered because it is the most realistic, natural way to do so. We see, explicitly, what happens when you gently caress it up in GRA- undercranking the film instead of overcranking it. A mistake was made in a one time only shot where Godzilla and Anguirus were fighting, and it looked ridiculous. They couldn't refilm it so they had to leave the mistake in. that's what this looks like. A mistake. But the main point is that Tsuburaya was extremely good at his job, miniature effects that looked almost as good as real life. His work on the Pearl Harbor recreation for Japan was mistaken for actual footage taken at the time. The reason why this is important is because you're already having to deal with enough out there concepts. If you can ground it in reality in any way, any way you can, it helps sell the illusion all the more. That's why the way Godzilla moves, as you keep distilling it, matters. That's why it's the standard. It's basically What It Should Look Like. They did research on very large animals to see how they moved and what they looked like when they moved and extrapolated from there. Even the new movies, Pacific Rim etall, follow the same thing. Because that's what they would look like. Burkion fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Mar 19, 2018 |
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Mar 19, 2018 23:09
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Straight up, that moment looks dumb and the use of it effectively adds nothing to the scene except gives us time for four people to go "WOWIE" or be angry that little guy is now big, which hilariously kind of undercuts the impressiveness. It's not the worst thing in the whole sequence, because the worst thing in the whole sequence is the sequence itself, which is so scattershot in its editing that at times it makes poo poo like "Spider-Man shows off in front of Captain America" less impactful because it cuts mid-way through him doing a thing to show Cap seeing he's doing a thing. Not a reaction shot, because they decide the loving camera still needs to be moving because it was moving when they cut away for around a half-second of a shot so here's this essentially subliminal shot that we recognize as Cap looking at Spider-Man, cutting back so Spidey can land on top of the thing and then we cut back to Cap again so now he can actually react and it's  as gently caress because what was the loving point of establishing that Captain America's eyes are following Spidey as he thwips up to the top of one of those airplane hallway things, we could have guessed that he was doing that WHEN YOU PUT HIM IN FRONT OF SPIDER-MANSeriously: We already see Cap turn to face him after dodging/tossing him:  Spidey turns back, thinks:  thwips up in the air:  Apparently we need to know that Cap is watching, even though that's a given since we already saw him turning to look at Spidey?  Now Spidey lands and it's like "well okay" since you broke up the acrobatic move, now it's less impressive:  And, oh, hey, Cap is still looking at him. I really needed that shot in the middle to assure me that he was actively following Spidey's cool moves, though, not like I couldn't have sussed that out or anything  And if we're gonna talk about bad visuals with Giant-Man:  "You think we could make it look like Paul is actually inside this giant suit?" "Nah, good enough that he looks like a two-dimensional thing pasted behind the eyeholes" "You're right. Let's go to Shoney's" There's also the fact that he kicks a bus and throws a wing at one speed and then suddenly moves much slower seconds later so he can miss kicking T'Challa and so somehow Spider-Man can outpace him and take him down. He goes from slow when he tosses War Machine to a capable reaction speed to kick-push a bus at Black Panther fast enough that Vision needs to zip down at super-speed to zap the thing in half, and to throw a loving plane wing at a flying Tony to going reeeeaallllllly slow again. Instead of figuring out whether he's a super-slow, dense-weighted character because he's big, or if he's just not as nimble as he is as a tiny guy but still reasonably fast with more obvious tells because he's thirty feet tall and any aggressive blinking he does gets picked up by weather satellites now, the movie decides he's both when he needs to be. It's pretty annoying, and it's something a little obscured on a first watch because, seriously, the massive wreckage is almost designed to obscure it. It's like they knew they were cheating hardcore on how he functioned and tried to cover it up. Please don't make me break down the rest of this scene, because the editing is a goddamn mess and actively detracts from action beats left and right, down to individual fights within the scene, partially because despite getting both John Wick directors to do your second unit work, a lot of which was probably these fight scenes, you didn't even bother to consider the rules that said directors applied to their film that you were name-checking them being involved because of. And it's also like twelve minutes long, which means there's a lot of these things.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:16
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Burkion posted:If this was how his powers worked, he wouldn't be able to jump around and stuff while super tiny. He'd be stuck to the ground, too dense to move properly. Pym's powers keeps his size relatively scaled. If his powers worked the way you think they work he wouldn't be able to knock someone out with a punch while the size of an ant. Again, the films are very clear that Pym Particles disentangle the normal relationships between size, mass, and force. He's not a Godzilla or a Pacific Rim, an actually-big thing. He's a small thing made temporarily big by what might as well be magic. Burkion posted:Elephants aren't any slower than Cheetas 
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Mar 19, 2018 23:20
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LesterGroans posted:It's nuts that Paul Rudd kinda holds the whole thing together. this is actually true of the universe in general. The fight at the airport isn't a fight. It's a series of pairings with vague objectives and limitations.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:20
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I'm watching the first Superman movie at a bar and dang it's pretty good. I like MoS and all but I see why people wanted Their Superman now.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:40
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Sir Kodiak posted:If his powers worked the way you think they work he wouldn't be able to knock someone out with a punch while the size of an ant. Again, the films are very clear that Pym Particles disentangle the normal relationships between size, mass, and force. He's not a Godzilla or a Pacific Rim, an actually-big thing. He's a small thing made temporarily big by what might as well be magic. This is ridiculous. We're essentially discussing the uncanny valley and you're apologizing it as some super power. Like, the effect, doesn't work, has nothing to do with pym particles.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:40
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RBA Starblade posted:I'm watching the first Superman movie at a bar and dang it's pretty good. I like MoS and all but I see why people wanted Their Superman now. Shame they didn't get him. They got some creepy rear end in a top hat in Justice League instead.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:43
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bushisms.txt posted:This is ridiculous. We're essentially discussing the uncanny valley and you're apologizing it as some super power. Like, the effect, doesn't work, has nothing to do with pym particles. Stuff like this: quote:Because as something that's supposed to be in the shot with the rest of them, it's glaringly wrong and doesn't function the way it should.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:44
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RBA Starblade posted:I'm watching the first Superman movie at a bar and dang it's pretty good. I like MoS and all but I see why people wanted Their Superman now. The first Superman movie is great but you can't go anywhere with it. The ending is perfect because that's the end of his story, of anything meaningful happening. He's the smiling all-powerful man in the sky that breaks the fourth wall to let you know it's gonna be ok.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:45
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Yeah, no argument about Giant Man is actually going to go anywhere, because they're purposefully vague with how the shrinking works (if his mass is preserved when he shrinks, which it seems to be, given how he throws people around, how can he ride an ant?) and the growing is even more vaguely defined. Like, it's an okay scene, but it does not stand up to scrutiny.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:47
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bushisms.txt posted:This is ridiculous. We're essentially discussing the uncanny valley and you're apologizing it as some super power. We are not essentially discussing the uncanny valley, considering the issue is not deviation from our innate human experience with the movement of forty-foot men. Nor, even if we were, would it be inappropriate for a movie to invoke the uncanny valley when depicting supernatural abilities. Like, if Clayface shows up in The Goddamn Batman or whatever, I'd be fine with transitional states being revoltingly near-human.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:54
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Can we just really seriously clarify that elephants are, in fact, slower than cheetahs though? I mean I get that you didn't mean maximum sprint speed and instead were referring to the quickness of their movements, but... cheetahs are definitely a lot quicker than elephants.
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Mar 19, 2018 23:56
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The Cameo posted:It's like they knew they were cheating hardcore on how he functioned and tried to cover it up. I dunno, they were pretty open with it in Ant-Man. I think just part of his power is that he can manipulate things like mass, momentum, weight, etc. more finely and independently than just scaling everything up and down or whatever. And they're clear that in Civil War, this Giant-Man thing is something he hasn't really dialed in yet. I definitely appreciate you going into detail on this, though, and agree about the lousy editing in your section about Captain America and Spider-Man. There's stuff like that throughout the fight.
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Mar 20, 2018 00:00
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Giant man should have yelled "Got some Pym Particles for ya!" and dropped his drawers to take a Jurrasic Park-style six foot tall dump on Cap.
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Mar 20, 2018 00:03
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