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professor_curly posted:Is it ever explained why the Clans sort of expected the Inner Sphere to follow the same warfare rules when the invasion started? Why did they bother issuing Batchalls or those other rules at all, did they just forget they made up all of that after they left? Cultural zeitgeist. They have been living under the Clan system for generations (a Clan generation is every 5 years and if a warrior isn't bloodnamed or dead by 35 they're considered basically useless). The system is so deeply ingrained that the average Clanner is incapable of asking why things are the way they are, much less consider that outsiders might not comprehend how their system works innately. They are human-shaped biological robots who do things by rote and while they do have to make decisions they almost never need to think about any of their actions until they're faced with a problem outside the very limited contexts their society presents them with. Those situations tend to break them or drive them completely insane because they don't have the coping methods to deal with them. If you feel a shudder of revulsion when the Clans are described to you, congratulations. That is the intent of their creators. They are supposed to be extremely unsettling.
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 21:07 |
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# ? Jun 9, 2024 11:08 |
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professor_curly posted:Is it ever explained why the Clans sort of expected the Inner Sphere to follow the same warfare rules when the invasion started? Why did they bother issuing Batchalls or those other rules at all, did they just forget they made up all of that after they left? For the same reason that they expected the worlds they conquered to immediately submit and adopt the Clan way of life: they believe it to be inherently superior and so obviously so that no one exposed to it would fail to take up their ways immediately. You can see this in the stories when the Clanners, when confronted by a civilian populace that actually resists them, have reactions that range from confusion to planetary-scale mass murder.
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 21:14 |
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Tempest_56 posted:For the same reason that they expected the worlds they conquered to immediately submit and adopt the Clan way of life: they believe it to be inherently superior and so obviously so that no one exposed to it would fail to take up their ways immediately. Eugh. It's like I'm reading garbage. Not you, I mean the clanners. I'm too used to hearing "so obviously inherently superior " in the context of internet atheists. PoptartsNinja posted:If you feel a shudder of revulsion when the Clans are described to you, congratulations. That is the intent of their creators. They are supposed to be extremely unsettling. Well, mission succeeded and then some. On an instinctual level I despise these things. My soul does not want to touch it. Perhaps not for the intended reasons, but the effect is close enough. Radio Free Kobold fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 20, 2018 |
# ? Mar 20, 2018 21:23 |
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Clanners are narrativistic, religiously-atheistic (or at minimum ritually-atheistic), nihilistic social-darwinist super-soldiers following the tenants of a society whose rules and rituals came to the idiot son of a famous space general in a dream he had while the population of the Kerensky Cluster was nuking itself into the stone age. Nicholas Kerensky was a military fetishist with daddy issues who wanted to create a society where, among other things, he could never lose (spoilers: he caught himself a bad case of the Critical Hit: Cockpit). The Clan narrative says: 1) To the Victor go the Spoils, Vae Victus, winning makes you morally superior to those who can't beat you. 2) Superior warriors will always defeat lesser warriors and it is their moral obligation to do so. 3) Lesser warriors (and the lower castes) should accept their place in the narrative as a stepping stone for their betters 4) Each Trueborn generation is inherently superior to their predecessors, olds should die quickly so the young can thrive. 5) Having your genetics used in the breeding program is what all trueborn Clanners should aspire to, your children will be better than you. 6) Having children the normal way is random and does not lead to superior warriors, use birth control when you gently caress you idiots. 7) Controlled genetics is superior to random chance. 8) The individual is nothing but a weapon or a tool in service to the Clan. 9) Every Clanner should therefore live for the betterment of the Clan, because the Clan will continue long after you are nothing 10) The only way you will ever be remembered for more than just your genetic material is if you get your name in our Brief Oral History of the Universe (the Remembrance). Then people will know your name and/or your deeds and how you bettered the Clan. Aspects of the Clan narrative were built to be extremely attractive to teenagers (in the same fashion as Ayn Rand, and all the current young adult Hunger Games type poo poo). Those who encounter the Clans as adults tend to react to them with total revulsion which was precisely what Stackpole, Charrette, and the other authors who were shaping the metaplot at the time intended. Even though he completely missed the point in Book 2 and Book 3, Robert Thurston does a great job in Book 1 of the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy exploring how Clan society takes a collection of relatively normal human children and grinds them down into soulless killing machines. If you want to read a book that will make you hate the Clans on a visceral level, Way of the Clans is your gateway. Just, y'know. Don't read Bloodname or Falcon Guard.
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 22:07 |
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I actually enjoyed all three books. Although the first is the best one.
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 23:27 |
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I vote write in A via B. Let’s rub some dirt in peoples eyes
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# ? Mar 20, 2018 23:39 |
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Deadmeat5150 posted:I actually enjoyed all three books. They just don't hold up well. Aidan as a cog in the machine is less interesting than Aidan realizing he'll never be cog-shaped no matter how much the Jade Falcons make him want to be.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 00:00 |
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It sounds like the Clans would be very popular among the adults of today with a little tweaking of current events. What year did they introduce the Clans?
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 00:14 |
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Scalding Coffee posted:It sounds like the Clans would be very popular among the adults of today with a little tweaking of current events. A long-rear end time ago. This is OG Battletech, I think? At least predating Mechwarrior 2 in 1995. I didn't know Stackpole was involved with creating the clans. That explains a fair bit, he's always been a pretty good author. Oh, hunh. Stackpole didn't just create the clans, Battletech was some of his first works. Neato.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 00:35 |
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Scalding Coffee posted:It sounds like the Clans would be very popular among the adults of today with a little tweaking of current events. 1990. Though there was some vaguely implied stuff in a spot or two earlier, 1990 is when they released actual books like the Compendium (with Clan equipment stats) and Battle for Twycross.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 00:38 |
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I looked on Google play for any books related to this series, and could only find one, mechwarrior 10. Every thing else is audiobook only.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 00:57 |
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Scalding Coffee posted:What year did they introduce the Clans? BattleDroids (1st edition) came out in 1984 and was supplanted by BattleTech (2nd edition) almost immediately, followed by CityTech and the War of 3039. The novel line for BattleTech started in 1988, and the Clans were introduced (both to the game and in the novel line) in 1990. Most people don't realize that Michael Stackpole finished the warrior trilogy and finished the first novel of the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy less than a year apart. McGiggins posted:I looked on Google play for any books related to this series, and could only find one, mechwarrior 10. Nearly all of them are on Amazon under the BattleTech Legends license. This is a good starting point, if you don't like this one you won't enjoy the novel line. Just be careful because Wolves on the Border's sequel, Wolf Pack, takes place more than 20 years later and is... not the best work of fiction Robert N Charrette ever produced.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 01:35 |
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To piggyback off of Poptarts, if I remember right, the Clans were introduced sometime in the nineties, kind of like how during that time comic books all seemed to suddenly try and get darker and edgier or spin off to focus on gritty anti-heroes, so that might explain how some of the weirder aspects of everything about them came around. Also it helps to imagine the Clans as being the sci-fi future stand in for the Mongol hordes and the Spartans. On the surface to someone just looking as aesthetics and accomplishments they sound baller, badass warriors stomping their foes into the ground through grit and warrior skill Its only after you peel back the layers and see what they as a society had to do to accomplish their feats and training makes you go WTF.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 02:21 |
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It should be noted that the arrival of the Clans was a REALLY divisive issue. Even by the mid to late 90s there were still open grog fights about the Clans/Clan equipment ruining the game, significant portions of the playerbase refusing to move past the 3025-era and repeated calls of munchkinry if you brought out a Clan mech. This did eventually die out, but the very existence of the Clans was a dispute for a good decade after they were introduced.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 02:33 |
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PoptartsNinja posted:If you feel a shudder of revulsion when the Clans are described to you, congratulations. That is the intent of their creators. They are supposed to be extremely unsettling. Exactly. The problem is is that there are some people who hear this and think "Wow, this sounds like an awesome thing!" and that's where you get the people who think the Clans are legitimately great, and the fanboyism for them. Tempest_56 posted:It should be noted that the arrival of the Clans was a REALLY divisive issue. Even by the mid to late 90s there were still open grog fights about the Clans/Clan equipment ruining the game, significant portions of the playerbase refusing to move past the 3025-era and repeated calls of munchkinry if you brought out a Clan mech. Something to keep in mind is that the balancing system Battletech currently uses, Battle Value, did not exist back when the Clans were introduced. The only balancing metric out there was tonnage balance, and a simple look at the Charger and Awesome should show you how utterly flawed that is, and how it really required battles to be fought between friends who would pick reasonable forces. So then you get the Clans showing up, with a base unit that is 5 mechs instead of 4, AND pretty much every single thing they have is just outright BETTER than what non-clan equipment is. And there's no point balance system. So you can see why people would get upset about them; even if you didn't give a flip about the fluff, if someone else brought them to a game and expected to play a "fluffy" engagement with both sides using a lance/star that would put you at a huge disadvantage because your IS tech just ain't up to snuff.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 02:47 |
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My work has just gotten a little nuts - its a thing that should hopefully be over by next week. I am not going to be able to do any updates until it's over. I hope you all understand.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 03:06 |
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Thanks for letting us know Phros.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 03:26 |
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I'm confident the thread will find topics of discussion to keep itself entertained until you return.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 03:46 |
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Understandable. We need our dose of shenanigans though.. hmm.. Something I would find intensely funny is to do a "Twitch Plays Pokemon" attempt with regards to MegaMek. Just how bad would the AI have to be to lose to the collective goonery of goons?
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 03:49 |
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Life is life, Phros. You're putting in a huge amount of work with this LP - we can't complain if you need some time.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 03:57 |
SirFozzie posted:Understandable. We need our dose of shenanigans though.. hmm.. I actually think a version of this thread using Megamek (with four players against the GM running the Opposition Force) would be pretty neat, but would be somewhat difficult to pull off.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 04:02 |
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At that point it's basically just PTN's LP.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 04:07 |
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Voyager I posted:At that point it's basically just PTN's LP. Eh, at least it'd move faster.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 04:13 |
Voyager I posted:At that point it's basically just PTN's LP. Minus the incredibly in-depth rewriting of the canon. Minus the story text. Minus a lot of the artistry that makes that thread as good as it is, but also that makes it so incredibly extensive.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 04:18 |
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Gnoman posted:I actually think a version of this thread using Megamek (with four players against the GM running the Opposition Force) would be pretty neat, but would be somewhat difficult to pull off. Yeah, maybe a company sized force, with people playing lance commanders or something, it'd need a couple people.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 04:43 |
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Tempest_56 posted:It should be noted that the arrival of the Clans was a REALLY divisive issue. Even by the mid to late 90s there were still open grog fights about the Clans/Clan equipment ruining the game, significant portions of the playerbase refusing to move past the 3025-era and repeated calls of munchkinry if you brought out a Clan mech. That's interesting! Starting as I did with MW2 and MW2:GBL, I always thought that the Clans were good guys, and the IS were bad guys (since I hadn't read any of the books at the time). Out of the only other two guys in school who were interested in the MW2 games, only one of them had read any of the novels, and it was the first of the Aidan Pryde books. He shared it with me, and I found the book deeply uncomfortable. In later years (again, before I'd read most of the novels or sourcebooks), I was still more interested in the Clans, and wished there had been more about the Cloud Cobras or the Goliath Scorpions.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 04:44 |
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So since we've got some time - let's talk contracts. So when a merc company gets offered a contract, there's several parts to it. The non-negotiable sections are kinda obvious:
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:04 |
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Gnoman posted:I actually think a version of this thread using Megamek (with four players against the GM running the Opposition Force) would be pretty neat, but would be somewhat difficult to pull off. I suddenly really want to watch this happen, who wants to pick it up? Probably needs its own thread, though.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:15 |
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I'm also curious what the different Mission Types of contracts mean in gameplay terms. Like what are the chances of different scenario types popping up in, say, a Planetary Invasion contract as opposed to Guerilla Warfare. I'm assuming a lot of this stuff comes from books I don't have. In generating contracts in GM mode I've seen Cadre Duty (assuming that's being a babysitting trainer), Garrison Duty, Pirate Hunting, Objective Raid, Guerilla Warfare, Recon Raid, Extraction Raid, Planetary Assault, Security Duty, and someone mentioned Riot Duty as a euphemism for warcrimes for hire being a thing, too.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:24 |
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Cadre: You provide the core of an area's fighting force, and train folks to take your job when you leave. Garrison Duty: Sit around, take money, and depending on your bank account, hope that someone either raids you or hope that no one raids you so you can repair everything Pirate Hunting: Basically what it says on the tin Objective Raid: Raid a factory or a key source of parts, either to enrich your client, or to deny something from the enemy Guerrilla Warfare: "We're going to drop you on a planet for a few months. Raise as much hell as you can. We'll come back for you. Probably." Recon Raid: Find out what's on a planet, either in preparation for a more general assault, or to confirm information (for example, we need to find out if the 13th Heavy Dragoons are off raiding other planets. Hit their homeworld and see what you find out) Extraction Raid: Usually, spies and the like, especially those who will have a hard time booking travel off planet. Security Duty: Guard a VIP or a location (for example, a factory) Riot Duty: "We are having trouble keeping the populace under our boot. So, if they don't do what we tell them to, we're going to put them under YOUR BattleMech's boot." Planetary Assault: We're going to take over. You going to stop us? (Quoting the three to 1 maxim, usually, if someone is launching an all out assault, they have enough things to make the assault stick. However, when all appears lost for the Defenders, they'll usually be a big rush to get VIP's off the planet (usually the folks that would normally get shot as part of a different nation being taken over). Some of these are one or two missions and done (for example, Extraction Raid is go in, land, go and get the target, and lift off), but depending on the long term goals can be a lot of time and effort (for example, a Recon Raid or Guerrilla Warfare might be for several months, as the preliminary to a Planetary assault"
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:37 |
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Xarbala posted:I'm also curious what the different Mission Types of contracts mean in gameplay terms. Like what are the chances of different scenario types popping up in, say, a Planetary Invasion contract as opposed to Guerilla Warfare. I'm assuming a lot of this stuff comes from books I don't have. In MekHQ terms? Not actually that I've noticed. There may be a formula in there to bias mission types to the contract type, but if there is it isn't strong enough to play a huge role. As for the types of contracts?
There's other mission types - being kept on retainer, defensive campaigns, a wide variety of espionage - but those are more rare.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:49 |
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Some Battletech Fiction examples that I can think of. Garrison Duty: The Black Thorns were hired to do this on the planet of Borghese. Their problem was the government decided later that being under the clans rule would be less damaging to their homeworld, and invited the Falcons in. Pirate Hunting: The Kell Hounds were doing this on the Periphery when the Clans showed up for the first time in the Inner Sphere. They were going after Redjack Ryan Objective Raid: From the 4th succession war, Justin Xiang (nee Allard), wanted to get his hands on an experimental Triple Strength Myomer that House Davion was working on, as a way to reverse the Capellan Confederation's losses. So, he launched several raids trying to pinpoint the lab that was testing these myomers. They ended up stealing it, which led to an event we'll discuss next. Extraction Raid: Justin Allard had sent a warning to House Davion that the Liao Death Commandos were going to raid the JumpShip repair yards on Kathil (basically the ultimate dick move in a scavenger economy, these were generally considered off limits). Of course, the failure of the attack (and the fact that Comstar KNEW Justin Allard had sent a message) would tip the Capellans off that Justin Allard was a double agent, so, they sent the First Kathil Uhlans (fresh off their victory over the Death Commandos) to Sian to extract him. Now, normally, this would be.. highly unlikely, as Sian was the capital of the Capellan Confederation, and naturally, only the best troops in the best gear would have duty there. Of course, what they DIDN'T know is that the Triple Strength Myomer that Allard/Xiang had stolen and refit all the best House troops with would burn when it came into contact with a gas. It's kinda hard to fight a mech battle when your mech's skeleton is on fire. They were able to extract Allard and another spy. Security Duty: Two cases, both involving the 13th Recon Regiment (Camacho's Caballero's). They were guarding Chandreskar Kurita (think a Buddha like hedonist who was a benevolent Machiavelli ). First on the planet of Towne, and then again on Luthien itself, where in one case, rival factions triggered attacks on them (on Towne, a group of hardcore Draconis Combine purists who thought that the Combine was getting too soft, and then again on Luthien, when the same group attempted a coup against Theodore Kurita.) Planetary Assault: Usually, this is House Troops doing it, but Mercs can be contracted for auxillary duties (filling a hole in the invading force's TOE), or as the main hammer (if they're big enough and bad enough). If you get tasked with this, you're probably going to get either the poo poo jobs, or you're a top of the line merc regiment.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 05:55 |
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PoptartsNinja posted:They're privileged Randian Supermen in an almost purely atheistic society and are raised from birth to believe it's better to die than it is to fail. As such, chill Clanners are few and far between. If you meet a Clanner who isn't actively climbing the ladder to the top of the heap they've given up and are just biding their time until they can get themselves gloriously killed. The Sea Foxes/Diamond Sharks actually let their warriors retire honorably to the Merchant caste, usually as leaders of merchant fleets. This means that the older and well-connected members of the clan are also the ones taking care of logistics.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 06:30 |
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Does MekHQ treat the different factions any differently? Are the DC more likely to screw you over? Will the Lyran Commonwealth pay better? Essentially, is the OP's current contract screwing him over because it's Comstar, or is it because the game's engine is trying to give him a challenge?
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 06:45 |
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The Diamond Sharks seem to be one of the few clans who actually have their poo poo together, and I'm not just saying that because they made the Mad Cat Mk. 2
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 06:48 |
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PoptartsNinja posted:... counterpoint: Freebirth, I Am Jade Falcon
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 07:12 |
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What we expected from ComStar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXjhYImVFEI&t=260s What we got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwqMiOzlOTw&t=138s
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 07:19 |
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Radio Free Kobold posted:The Diamond Sharks seem to be one of the few clans who actually have their poo poo together, and I'm not just saying that because they made the Mad Cat Mk. 2 Some of them are at least visibly more...sane? If that is the right word. Hell Horses recognise the value of combined arms, Ghost Bear (at least nowadays) integrated with an Inner Sphere state, Wolf(in-Exile) is an edge case since they are barely hanging on and it was mostly Ulric Kerensky who made the warden Wolves more sensible like having mechs be more energy heavy to prevent themselves from running out of ammo, Snow Raven had a strong navy (not everyone is going to let you land mechs unopposed). Of course you also have the Diamond Sharks. Not sure if I missed out any others, or maybe those whose insanity are more obvious.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 07:25 |
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Weissritter posted:Some of them are at least visibly more...sane? If that is the right word. Hell Horses recognise the value of combined arms, Ghost Bear (at least nowadays) integrated with an Inner Sphere state, Wolf(in-Exile) is an edge case since they are barely hanging on and it was mostly Ulric Kerensky who made the warden Wolves more sensible like having mechs be more energy heavy to prevent themselves from running out of ammo, Snow Raven had a strong navy (not everyone is going to let you land mechs unopposed). Of course you also have the Diamond Sharks. Honestly, if anything Hell's Horses are a bit TOO obsessed with vehicles, and it's caused problems for them multiple times. For balanced combined arms you're more looking for structures like RCTs, and I want to say there are one or two Clans that get a bit closer to that ideal than the Horses. If you're far enough in the history to have the Ghost Bears integrated with Rasalhague, than by that point so have the Snow Ravens (with the Outworlds Alliance) and the Goliath Scorpions (with Nueva Castile, though more accurately they conquered it and then integrated). Neither are Inner Sphere states (the Alliance is a major Periphery state, and Castile is in the Deep Periphery), but the general gist is the same. To stretch the point a bit, the Falcons, Wolves, Sharks, and Horses all had to make at least some slight changes as well since they're all now limited to their Inner Sphere holdings (or migratory within it, in the case of the Sharks). Honestly, the Snow Ravens probably represent that integration the best simply because they're the only one that didn't actually conquer said people they integrated with - the Bears decisively conquered Rasalhague, they just eventually decided to allow the conquered some say in the government for certain reasons. On the other hand, Snow Raven forces were shattered during the Wars of Reaving before they wandered into Alliance space, so they didn't have the force to conquer it but still had the most overall power, thus both sides basically eventually came to the conclusion they had to reach an agreement.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 08:05 |
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# ? Jun 9, 2024 11:08 |
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SirFozzie posted:It's kinda hard to fight a mech battle when your mech's skeleton is on fire. Technically their muscles were on fire, but I'll let it pass because the idea of a bunch of flaming, skeletalized Battlemechs running around and screaming in the background while Kai walks up the Dropship ramp smoking a cigar is just too drat amusing to me.
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# ? Mar 21, 2018 10:07 |