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double nine posted:belgians or expats in belgium itt might get a kick out of these fake election slogans:
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Mar 21, 2018 18:02
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re: Belgian planechat It just came out that there's proof that a bunch of generals knew about the Lockheed Martin rapport and purposefully withheld that information - because of course they knew about it. I'm also 99% sure our defense minister, Vandeput, knew about it as well and this'll just end up as a case of a couple of soldier boys falling on their swords to protect him. If they even have to fall on their swords, might just be a sternly administered slap on the wrist. As for which plane we should get: none. No planes. Zero planes. It's a huge waste of money and the entire purchasing process is just corruption all the way down.
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Mar 21, 2018 18:13
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But then russian bombers and befudled grandpas piloting cessnas would trespass on our airspace at will.
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Mar 21, 2018 18:34
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Imho all member states should just pool the money together for the EEAS to purchase the fleet and aircraft wings and they lend-lease it to countries as necessary.
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Mar 21, 2018 20:03
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R. Mute posted:As for which plane we should get: none. No planes. Zero planes. It's a huge waste of money and the entire purchasing process is just corruption all the way down. This is the only correct response.
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Mar 21, 2018 20:05
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I am a military tech dummy, but if air space security is the issue - would not some domestic or European SAM program be the correct move?
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Mar 21, 2018 20:13
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
Deltasquid posted:Imho all member states should just pool the money together for the EEAS to purchase the fleet and aircraft wings and they lend-lease it to countries as necessary. And you think that a European budget administered by Brussels would lead to less corrupt procurement decisions? Retarded Goatee posted:I am a military tech dummy, but if air space security is the issue - would not some domestic or European SAM program be the correct move? No, there are a good number of situations in which an actual aircraft is the much better option, for instance rogue airplanes where you want your combat pilots to do some visual recon/intimidation before blowing them to smithereens
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Mar 21, 2018 20:27
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In cost? Maybe.however since a european sam would probably be built by eu comittee,the hardware would be italian,the software french,the regulation and safety test would be performed by germans and assembled by the spanish.which mean that after coming online half the system wouldnt work and the other half would be shooting down everything larger than a seagull,and the project would managed to be understaffed and overfunded at the same time.
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Mar 21, 2018 20:32
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GaussianCopula posted:And you think that a European budget administered by Brussels would lead to less corrupt procurement decisions? By sheer virtue of scale, maybe? I imagine the EU won't order as many public procurements as all its member states put together. And even if they do, they'll use them more than Belgium ever will.
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Mar 21, 2018 20:52
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GaussianCopula posted:No, there are a good number of situations in which an actual aircraft is the much better option, for instance rogue airplanes where you want your combat pilots to do some visual recon/intimidation before blowing them to smithereens
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Mar 21, 2018 20:52
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Retarded Goatee posted:I am a military tech dummy, but if air space security is the issue - would not some domestic or European SAM program be the correct move? The bulk of air defense operations in peace time is to intercept some aircraft that doesn't answer air traffic control radio. They can be airliners or general aviation. Usually, they're not doing anything wrong, they just have a broken radio. Sometimes the radio isn't even broken, they just turned it off or something and aren't aware air traffic control has been hailing them for the last ten minutes. The fighter hurries to intercept and then check out what's happening by flying in formation near the intercepted plane's cockpit and, simply, looking in. They communicate with the other plane's crew with hand gestures and also aircraft maneuvers such as wiggling the wings. If needed they'll escort the aircraft to the nearest airport. Replace aircraft by SAMs, and then, the procedure when a Boeing from Malaysia Airlines with 200+ passengers onboard has a broken radio becomes "shoot to kill" because that's the only thing you can do. It might not actually be the correct move, but I'll let you judge. Another common example of air defense operation in peace time is intercepting military aircraft from another country that are getting close to your borders. Note that I didn't say they crossed the border, because they don't. They just get close. Perfectly legal in international law. With fighters, you hurry there, intercept, say "hello, I saw you" to the foreign aircraft's crew, and then everybody turns back and go back home. With SAMs, the procedure becomes "shoot to kill" and then you start WW3 with Russia. Again, some people might be tempted to argue that this might probably not be an optimal policy. Within the last several years, dozens of thousands of such interceptions have taken place all over the world. And except for MH17, none of them led to shootdown. So perhaps the Belgian Air Component shouldn't try to imitate the example of the Donbass Dumbass Battalion? ChainsawCharlie posted:In cost? Maybe.however since a european sam would probably be built by eu comittee,the hardware would be italian,the software french,the regulation and safety test would be performed by germans and assembled by the spanish.which mean that after coming online half the system wouldnt work and the other half would be shooting down everything larger than a seagull,and the project would managed to be understaffed and overfunded at the same time. There is a European SAM and it works pretty well actually. As far as I know it's the only air defense system that has demonstrated the ability to intercept a supersonic sea-skimming missile to protect a ship, so perhaps French software isn't that bad?
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Mar 21, 2018 21:12
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ChainsawCharlie posted:In cost? Maybe.however since a european sam would probably be built by eu comittee,the hardware would be italian,the software french,the regulation and safety test would be performed by germans and assembled by the spanish.which mean that after coming online half the system wouldnt work and the other half would be shooting down everything larger than a seagull,and the project would managed to be understaffed and overfunded at the same time. Cross-European (not EU) defence projects are hardly uncommon dude. The Eurofighter, the Tornado, MILAN etc.
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Mar 21, 2018 21:19
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You don't buy an entire fleet of military jets to just perform check-ups on radio-less passenger jets. There are plenty of non-armed airplanes capable of performing that role if you really think it's necessary. Border air security also isn't high up on Belgium's list of needs.
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Mar 21, 2018 21:20
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Cat Mattress posted:Replace aircraft by SAMs, and then, the procedure when a Boeing from Malaysia Airlines with 200+ passengers onboard has a broken radio becomes "shoot to kill" because that's the only thing you can do. It might not actually be the correct move, but I'll let you judge.
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Mar 21, 2018 21:22
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R. Mute posted:You don't buy an entire fleet of military jets to just perform check-ups on radio-less passenger jets. There are plenty of non-armed airplanes capable of performing that role if you really think it's necessary. They don't need to be armed, but they do need to be fast, so as to reach the target quickly despite not being based nearby. They need to be small so as to be able to fly close to the other aircraft without risking collision. For small and fast, fighters are the best choice. You could go for unarmed fighters, I suppose. R. Mute posted:Border air security also isn't high up on Belgium's list of needs. Given that this is a mission that has been mutualized across the Benelux, the Netherlands will not be happy if Belgium decides not to do it anymore.
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Mar 21, 2018 21:31
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Cat Mattress posted:You could go for unarmed fighters, I suppose. quote:Given that this is a mission that has been mutualized across the Benelux, the Netherlands will not be happy if Belgium decides not to do it anymore.
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Mar 21, 2018 21:39
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The reason why this controversy is such a disaster for our government isn't that it might expose the shady dealings in picking one of these jets over another, it's that when our current government came into power, they were simultaneously gung-ho about making massive cuts and about replacing the F-16 fleet - they rammed through the funding for their replacements at a frankly un-Belgian pace, actively avoiding any debate in parliament even. They're afraid that this attention and a possible restart of the procurement procedure might light up that debate again and pull into question why the hell we're cutting every public service we have, while at the same time wasting up to 15 billion on fighter jets. And that's not even thinking about what could happen if people start wondering what the hell our current fighter jets have been doing in the Middle East - that's another topic that's been kept very tightly covered up. Considering our current right-wing government's policy on controversial matters has been "ram it through, suppress any info on it and stifle any debate" - attention like this is the last thing they want.
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Mar 21, 2018 21:51
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As bad as your government might be about this, ours is worse. According to official numbers the Netherlands remains the only coalition member who has dropped hundreds of bombs over Iraq and Syria and not killed a single civilian in collateral damage. That's how transparently our government lies to us.
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Mar 21, 2018 22:02
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They fed us the same line, really.quote:Sinds 1 juli 2016 voerden de Belgische F-16’s vanuit Jordanië 605 missies uit, goed voor 6.080 vluchturen, en dropten ze 675 bommen. Volgens cijfers van Defensie bedroeg de efficiëntie van de aanvallen tegen troepen van IS op de grond 85 procent.
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Mar 21, 2018 22:11
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Gee guys, maybe this Major General Frederik Vansina isn't the most reliable guy. Rough summary of the article: he knew about the extended life-span of the F-16's since 2016 and apparently called a Lockheed Martin rep to complain about the company mentioning during some international meeting that the F-16's could stay in service for much longer.
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Mar 21, 2018 22:15
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Didn't know you guys officially also have perfect aim. I swear I saw a bar chart with admitted civilian casualties a while back where only the Netherlands was still at 0, but I can't find it now so I'm probably wrong. Our ministry of Defense doesn't even see fit to properly inform parliament exactly what the gently caress it's up to, though. On the level of "we'll send you a report" and then just not. Like here's the thing that gets me, who the gently caress are these lies even for? This is a country which en-masse voted for a prime minister who during the election debate literally said he thinks it's a good thing that Dutch people who radicalize go to Syria and get killed over there. Because you know, if it happens over there it's not our problem. And all the Syrians they terrorize in the meanwhile can get hosed I guess. If you said we bombed a thousand civilians while fighting ISIS I don't think the Dutch electorate would give a solitary gently caress about it. Or they could tell a more plausible lie and just lowball the absolute gently caress out of the numbers, like how the US, the UK and France do it. But no, we get fed complete and total bullshit and I can't figure out why. If they're afraid of a backlash, again, lowballing the number makes them more credible and thus less likely to receive backlash than the poo poo they're pulling now. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 22:27
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We usually don't get included on bar charts.
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Mar 21, 2018 22:45
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I dont get the point of Europe buying new planes in bulk. Sorry 100 grips wont stop russian gta kill teams from annihilating all 100 of them in short order. Tbey should just buy 1,000 f16s and be done with it
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Mar 21, 2018 22:56
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[quote="Cat Mattress" post=""48237933"] There is a European SAM and it works pretty well actually. As far as I know it's the only air defense system that has demonstrated the ability to intercept a supersonic sea-skimming missile to protect a ship, so perhaps French software isn't that bad? [/quote] seems ok,but they do have some limitations meanwhile ,in sarkozy news... I remember back in 2007?08? Gaddafi touring a bunch of european countries,i wonder how many more stuff like this is going to come out.
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Mar 21, 2018 23:23
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Could tremendous shithead Sarko have had some kind of foreknowledge that Gaddaffi's regime wouldn't last long and so he wouldn't have to actually pay them back whatever money or promises he would owe them?
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Mar 21, 2018 23:34
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LeoMarr posted:I dont get the point of Europe buying new planes in bulk. Sorry 100 grips wont stop russian gta kill teams from annihilating all 100 of them in short order. Tbey should just buy 1,000 f16s and be done with it The F-16 aren't any better than the Gripen. If anything, they're inferior. Those are completely different systems, though. Shibawanko posted:Could tremendous shithead Sarko have had some kind of foreknowledge that Gaddaffi's regime wouldn't last long and so he wouldn't have to actually pay them back whatever money or promises he would owe them? No, definitely not. Sarkozy's government was completely blindsided by the Arab Spring, and in general I'm extremely reluctant to give any capability for foresight to a blinged-out cocainated moron like Sarkozy. Edit: in other news, Brexit continues to be hilarious. https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/976569366383939584 Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 23:41
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Cat Mattress posted:The F-16 aren't any better than the Gripen. If anything, they're inferior. But F-16s are pretty good aerial cop cars in reality. most non-military actions done by Jets could be done by F-16s just as well, and en masse as any other fighter jet, an avionics package upgrade every 5 years and the things will do it all. Unless Russia plans to invade anytime soon, Europe doesn't need to run around with the most advanced jets in the world to do thigs like anti-smuggling abatement and striking isis.
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Mar 22, 2018 06:33
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The N-VA solved the problem, turns out it was a socialist plot. Not the army guys withholding the info about upgrades, but the information now getting out. Just a few more steps and we too can start screaming about leakers and fake news.
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Mar 22, 2018 09:20
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Cat Mattress posted:Edit: in other news, Brexit continues to be hilarious. I am sure after Brexit the Brits will quickly come around and see the advantages of owning a French passport.
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Mar 22, 2018 10:49
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LeoMarr posted:But F-16s are pretty good aerial cop cars in reality. most non-military actions done by Jets could be done by F-16s just as well, and en masse as any other fighter jet, an avionics package upgrade every 5 years and the things will do it all. Unless Russia plans to invade anytime soon, Europe doesn't need to run around with the most advanced jets in the world to do thigs like anti-smuggling abatement and striking isis. Yeah but *looks east* there should be core EU deterrent, which can just sit down at the border to dissuade thousands of Russian servicemen from spontaneously and definitely without orders taking an armed holiday. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 11:00
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Russia doesn't need to invade when they can just buy the countries.
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Mar 22, 2018 11:46
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BabyFur Denny posted:I am sure after Brexit the Brits will quickly come around and see the advantages of owning a French passport. 
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Mar 22, 2018 13:28
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Inescapable Duck posted:Russia doesn't need to invade when they can just buy the countries. That or wait until they elect some populist party because the population lost any hope of anything changing. The Russians just have to wait and they will probably get most of what they want either way since mainstream political parties in Europe seem to be prefer to go extict than change. quote:Within the last several years, dozens of thousands of such interceptions have taken place all over the world. And except for MH17, none of them led to shootdown. So perhaps the Belgian Air Component shouldn't try to imitate the example of the Donbass Dumbass Battalion? Anyway for Belgium, it is an honest question how much of their GDP they need to blow on essentially "air cops" when they are in the heart of Europe and are buttressed on all sides by NATO countries. If Belgium had an active warzone like Donbass, it would be something else but if anything Belgium is arguably one of the countries in Europe to actually see any real armed conflict. The MH17 wasn't a peacetime interception that went wrong, but a missile crew that shot down a civilian jet in a war zone where similar Ukrainian military cargo aircraft were being shot down. It is an argument for better-trained AA crews not necessarily F-35s. (I believe the Russian battalion was pretty green.)
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Mar 22, 2018 14:15
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nimby posted:The N-VA solved the problem, turns out it was a socialist plot. Not the army guys withholding the info about upgrades, but the information now getting out. Yes, why wouldn't the leaker go to the minister who clearly knew about the rapport already and was straight up lusting after some shiny F-35s? A mystery for the ages.
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Mar 22, 2018 15:06
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R. Mute posted:rapport e: Unless rapport is a euphemism for corruption, which to be fair would be a pretty good one.
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Mar 22, 2018 15:39
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Nah, I just wasn't paying attention.
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Mar 22, 2018 15:45
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Cat Mattress posted:The F-16 aren't any better than the Gripen. If anything, they're inferior. Im not saying they are any better. Merely that for 99% of non conventional rich country vs rich country war actions like anti smuggling, anti air terrorrism or mid air seuizures, whats the point. 4 f16s is more menacing to a prop stop than
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Mar 22, 2018 18:09
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Maybe EU sanctions should hit the Moscow proxy in the EU... https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/976844865458835456?s=21 Kinda lovely for a country that depends on EU money to align with Putin...
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Mar 22, 2018 20:12
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So the Dutch SP took a beating in the municipal elections, fortunately the greens still won, although I don't exactly love the greens. Liliane Marijnissen is fine as a person but I think almost nobody is attracted to what she says because the way she talks sounds way too much like another technocrat, which is exactly what the SP should try not to be. All like answering every question with "I will say 2 things to that, number 1 [stall for time], number 2 [actual answer to question audience has forgotten]". Presenting your political program in that way doesn't work anymore. People loving hate it and with good reason.
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Mar 22, 2018 20:21
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GaussianCopula posted:Maybe EU sanctions should hit the Moscow proxy in the EU... I'm not sure this counts as Greece aligning with Putin.
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Mar 22, 2018 20:36
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