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Xiahou Dun posted:You know this undercuts your literal core argument, right? Sorry what was the question? I've said that fighters in the game being humans or whatever are strong and gear makes them stronger much like El Cid or Fergus who were humans made stronger by their magical weapons. A fighter in D&D isn't a peasant waif without a magical sword, they're just not Conan and I agree that the rules suck for not contemplating people wanting to make that character. Ryuujin posted:What...are you just trolling people? No I'm not trying to rile anyone up, I'm just talking about the game. I don't want to be taken as just shooting people down or whatever. I acknowledged there should be more built-in stuff a fighter can do, but as it stands a fighter needs gear and the class is built around needing gear. You can accomplish crazy power, but the DM needs to give you opportunities to get gear. The only way I could think of getting around it for now (and again it doesn't deal with the core complaint around the game not contemplating mythic fighters) would be to let the fighter select the advantages gear gives him/her. I'd love to run a game where after level 10 the wizards are the same power as now and fighters are putting dragons in a headlock or resisting bites with their bare hands.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:21
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Ryuujin posted:So you use an optional rule to make something that is going to be practically impossible for a level 10 fighter, who should have been able to do it without breaking a sweat at level 5, possible at level 20. And I am not sure even a level 20 fighter, with that optional rule, could take out 100 guards in a King's Castle. Sheer attrition would probably turn 100 guards or bandits into a deadly fight well before the Fighter gets through them. And of course being a King's Castle the guards are likely more elite and higher CR, wouldn't be surprised if they are CR 8-10. And thus potentially wreck the Fighter with just 1 or 2 of them, let alone waves that add up to 100. A knight which would be an elite for a King is CR 3. There would not be CR 8 to 10 guys unless the King has a ton of the strongest warriors in the realm under his command. Which is the currently the Champion a CR 9 Warrior. (The only one stronger is a Warlord) If a King had 100 Champions under his command they would be the Ultimate Elite force in possibly this d&d world. These guys would wreck any invading Wizard as well. The average dudes a fighter is going to be running through in a castle are 11 hp guards. Of which I am fairly certain a 5th to 10th level fighter can run through a hundred of them in a castle on his own. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 05:24
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JBP posted:Sorry what was the question? I've said that fighters in the game being humans or whatever are strong and gear makes them stronger much like El Cid or Fergus who were humans made stronger by their magical weapons. A fighter in D&D isn't a peasant waif without a magical sword, they're just not Conan and I agree that the rules suck for not contemplating people wanting to make that character. Literally just scroll up.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:25
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Xiahou Dun posted:Also this. Man, I am saying in the D&D game that magic happens to be more versatile than fists. I'm not attacking you or saying magic is awesome and I love it.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:25
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Xiahou Dun posted:Literally just scroll up. I did. Is "at level 20?" the question? MonsterEnvy posted:A knight which would be an elite for a King is CR 3. There would not be CR 8 to 10 guys unless the King has a ton of the strongest warriors in the realm under his command. Which is the currently the Champion a CR 9 Warrior. (The only one stronger is a Warlord) If a King had 100 Champions under his command they would be the Ultimate Elite force in possibly this d&d world. These guys would wreck any invading Wizard as well. Yeah this. A wizard can blow up the world. If you want that play a wizard. If you want to smash heads play a fighter or barbarian. It's not a competitive game where you get first prize for casting Mansion and living in it. Fighters also aren't tiny weak babies, but they should have more cool moves and be less reliant on the DM for tooling up/customising their guy. JBP fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 05:25
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JBP posted:I did. Is "at level 20?" the question? Note: A wizard is not yet capable of blowing up the world in 5e. Unless a world ending artifact was brought in that I am not aware of. But yeah I agree with you here. I feel like some of you guys are also overestimating a wizard as well. They have some powerful abilities and spells. But most are limited in some way or can be countered. Like the average level 20 wizard won't be able to beat a Adult Dragon on their own. Like if Magic Joe the super Wizard walks into a dungeon room with a Dragon inside odds are he is a dead man unless he has some back up.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:35
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I have a question regarding spherical spells. A player cast Hunger of Hadi tonight and there was a question of a 20ft radius sphere. Could this be place in the ground so that the center of the sphere would encapsulate the most area possible? I know a fireball is technically a sphere, but it impacts on the ground in most interpretations.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:36
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JBP posted:No I'm not trying to rile anyone up, I'm just talking about the game. I don't want to be taken as just shooting people down or whatever. I acknowledged there should be more built-in stuff a fighter can do, but as it stands a fighter needs gear and the class is built around needing gear. You can accomplish crazy power, but the DM needs to give you opportunities to get gear. The only way I could think of getting around it for now (and again it doesn't deal with the core complaint around the game not contemplating mythic fighters) would be to let the fighter select the advantages gear gives him/her. I'd love to run a game where after level 10 the wizards are the same power as now and fighters are putting dragons in a headlock or resisting bites with their bare hands. Okay, so if you're saying that the reason you're handing out magical items to Fighters is because that's the "only" way you can countenance them as being able to perform supernatural feats, but you agree that Fighters should be able to perform supernatural feats at high levels anyway, people are suggesting that perhaps you can slip the surly bonds of what the text implies and just give them the supernatural abilities that you already think they should have, without them needing items to do it. Instead of a pair of winged boots that lets them jump thrice their movement speed, the Fighter can ... jump thrice their movement speed, under whatever limitations you may or may not have already placed those boots under. Because you're not wrong when you say that "magic is more powerful than fists", but we are questioning why "items" are necessarily the only way that a Fighter can access magic.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:38
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Why is that a choice based on if your character works out or reads books? Why can't everyone do things I was like 4 when they invented game balance. Hey maybe people who want to pretend to be really strong should be as capable as people who want to be "smart". In a game of make believe we share for fun. What an idea. gently caress that guy in a wheelchair cause he wants to pretend to be able to kool-aid man through a door once with his super legs. REALISM (based of off mouse cord tests) This is loving dumb ; let everyone have equal fun. But tell me more about how you can shape reality because you like reading genre fiction instead of say history articles.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:40
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Drowning Rabbit posted:I have a question regarding spherical spells. A player cast Hunger of Hadi tonight and there was a question of a 20ft radius sphere. Could this be place in the ground so that the center of the sphere would encapsulate the most area possible? I know a fireball is technically a sphere, but it impacts on the ground in most interpretations. Well a fireball can explode in the air as well. If this a question about area covered. Here is what the DMG has to say about that. quote:Choose an intersection of squares as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow the rules for that kind of area as normal (see the “Areas of Effect” section in chapter 10 of the Player’s Handbook). If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square. If this is not what you mean. Then I don't quite understand the question.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:Note: A wizard is not yet capable of blowing up the world in 5e. Unless a world ending artifact was brought in that I am not aware of. But yeah I agree with you here. People mention Wish a lot, but when I mentioned making up a sweet move for your fighter guy and asking if it was good that was a bridge too far. gradenko_2000 posted:Okay, so if you're saying that the reason you're handing out magical items to Fighters is because that's the "only" way you can countenance them as being able to perform supernatural feats, but you agree that Fighters should be able to perform supernatural feats at high levels anyway, people are suggesting that perhaps you can slip the surly bonds of what the text implies and just give them the supernatural abilities that you already think they should have, without them needing items to do it. Yeah I know and I get that, I think it's absolutely fair enough and the game should have built in feats of incredible strength/agility for non-casters. I've been doing it that way forever because my groups and I think items are cool and they're magpies (which I've said before). If someone said to me "fighter sucks I want to be like thor but no hammer" (this is because I used Thor's hammer as an easy go to before) I'd just say "ok cool you definitely don't have a magic item but can do the same poo poo as if you did and you can do it D6 times a day so long as you're meeting another requirement".
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Mar 23, 2018 05:48
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Xiahou Dun posted:Why is that a choice based on if your character works out or reads books? Dude just play a different game system or use house rules with a DM that agrees. I'm sorry that 5e D&D doesn't deliver what you want and I wish you all the best.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:50
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MonsterEnvy posted:Here is what the DMG has to say about that. Where in the DMG? The index points me to page 249-251 for AoE stuff, but your quote isn't from those pages. Chapter 10 of the PHB says nothing similar to that, either.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:Note: A wizard is not yet capable of blowing up the world in 5e. Unless a world ending artifact was brought in that I am not aware of. But yeah I agree with you here. The average level 20 wizard is actually two different level 20 wizards plus a bound elemental, might have magic jarred himself into a body with 300 hp, and can have an unlimited army of zombies. And if he fails he just respawns safe and sound in his private demiplane. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 05:56
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JBP posted:Dude just play a different game system or use house rules with a DM that agrees. I'm sorry that 5e D&D doesn't deliver what you want and I wish you all the best. I mostly do because this game is a broken mess. Like something a toddler made. A toddler that really hated math class. I'll be over here using literally 6th grade math to fix a thing I payed someone to make. Jesus gently caress even imagine that applied to any other industry. Like if I had to grind a kitchen knife down because it was 4 feet long.
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Mar 23, 2018 05:59
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AlphaDog posted:Where in the DMG? The index points me to page 249-251 for AoE stuff, but your quote isn't from those pages. Chapter 10 of the PHB says nothing similar to that, either. Conspiratiorist posted:The average level 20 wizard is actually two different level 20 wizards, might have magic jarred himself into a body with 300 hp, and can have an unlimited army of zombies. Xiahou Dun posted:I mostly do because this game is a broken mess. Are you in the Industry? If not try entering it and see if you can fix that stuff then. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 06:04
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MonsterEnvy posted:Note: A wizard is not yet capable of blowing up the world in 5e. Unless a world ending artifact was brought in that I am not aware of. But yeah I agree with you here. Dude you really need to step out and play some of the batshit high level games with magic users you run into. I feel like you've never played a high level game of any dnd system? Literally blowing up the world is not what they are talking about they are not literally casting a spell that blows up the world they using hyperbole to demonstrate that this class has a massive amount of influence that is relative to blowing up the world while the fighter needs to take a dex check to not piss on the toilet seat. See, there is no check to the fighter taking a piss but I was using a hyperbolic narrative example of how little influence the fighter has. The wizard gets to turn himself invisible and change what he looks like at like level 3, things that are big game changers even at that point and gives them the ability to try and attempt stuff wildly beyond what a fighter can in a narrative sense. By level 20 a wizard cast 'Wish' which again, is a giant narrative thing that lets the wizard take huge control of the narrative for brief moments while the fighter....cant and has nothing even remotely reflective of that. Thats the issue are trying to point out, that in a narrative sense the fighter should have something they can do that operates on that scale. MonsterEnvy posted:Are you in the Industry? If not try entering it and see if you can fix that stuff then. loving lol. There are hundreds of games that already do this but nah you wanna pull some lovely 'well you're not a professional football player maybe you should become one'  poo poo.Hey heres a bunch of talents from a system I like they keeps non-wizards some level of narrative power, they can be 1/long rest kind of stuff . Some combat ones: Roll an attack check, if passed skip your next turn and kill all minions in an encounter. You may make an attack check, after it resolves you can make another attack check but it must be with a different weapon, you may continue to make an attack check until you run out of different weapons to use. Drawing weapons are incidental and can be drawn and dropped freely between attacks. Some Narrative ones: Roll a sleight of hand check to escape the situation no matter what it is, you escape it. Roll an survival check to find exactly where a person is. You know where they are (or where they will be) and can make your way just in time to get to them before they move to a new location. Roll an survival check to find exactly where an item you are looking for is. Roll an insight check to learn the detailed history and motivation of a creature nearby. Roll a knowledge check to learn some critical information that is relevant to the specific situation at hand that will help you overcome it, work out what it is between you and the GM. It must be helpful and actionable information relative to the current situation. Roll a persuasion check to turn a character into a long term ally, they may not help you right now but you've sown the seeds that will turn them into a trustworthy friend down the line. Roll a deception check to make an NPC believe whatever specific fact you just passed on as abject truth even if they would know otherwise. Here you go, these give some level of actual narrative control and still dont keep pace with what a wizard does by level 20 but still keeps a martial genuinely interesting (just dont make the DCs super high or anything silly like that, make them the same chance as a wizard for having their spells succeed imo). kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 06:08
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MonsterEnvy posted:I was using Beyond so I did not have a page number at first. Anyway it's page 251 right below creature size. Cool, thanks. How does that work out with lightning bolts?
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Mar 23, 2018 06:13
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kingcom posted:Dude you really need to step out and play some of the batshit high level games with magic users you run into. I feel like you've never played a high level game of any dnd system? Literally blowing up the world is not what they are talking about they are not literally casting a spell that blows up the world they using hyperbole to demonstrate that this class has a massive amount of influence that is relative to blowing up the world while the fighter needs to take a dex check to not piss on the toilet seat. See, there is no check to the fighter taking a piss but I was using a hyperbolic narrative example of how little influence the fighter has. I know the first comment was a joke. I even said I agree.
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Mar 23, 2018 06:13
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kingcom posted:Dude you really need to step out and play some of the batshit high level games with magic users you run into. I feel like you've never played a high level game of any dnd system? Literally blowing up the world is not what they are talking about they are not literally casting a spell that blows up the world they using hyperbole to demonstrate that this class has a massive amount of influence that is relative to blowing up the world while the fighter needs to take a dex check to not piss on the toilet seat. See, there is no check to the fighter taking a piss but I was using a hyperbolic narrative example of how little influence the fighter has. Wish is only as strong as the weed your DM is smoking when they agree to your Wish proposal. If you play it as a rules lawyer its just a very good spell that will eventually kill you if you want to cast more spells. Your 20 fighter on the other hand might have, idk Boots of Wish Walking and every step they take the boots grant a wish and the boots are fighter only. The fighter could then roll con to eat the boots and then transform into a planetoid boot that grants wishes forever, becoming a literal Wish God and winning the game.
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Mar 23, 2018 06:15
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AlphaDog posted:Cool, thanks. There are two main ways to make this work. Ether just use the intersection and say anything in the squares affected is zapped. Or just use a string, ruler or some other type of line and place it between the caster and the target square and say anything the line touches is zapped. From experience people prefer the later. Edit oh and this way before I forget. 
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Mar 23, 2018 06:21
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JBP posted:Wish is only as strong as the weed your DM is smoking when they agree to your Wish proposal. If you play it as a rules lawyer its just a very good spell that will eventually kill you if you want to cast more spells. Your 20 fighter on the other hand might have, idk Boots of Wish Walking and every step they take the boots grant a wish and the boots are fighter only. The fighter could then roll con to eat the boots and then transform into a planetoid boot that grants wishes forever, becoming a literal Wish God and winning the game.  What are you even talking about at this point? We're over here trying to discuss game design and the mistakes and problems that have been discovered and solved within the last 18 years of game development since 3.0 came out and you're doing what exactly? Are you trying to imply that there is absolutely no flaw in the game because the GM can make stuff up? MonsterEnvy posted:I know the first comment was a joke. I even said I agree. Sorry my mistake I didn't understand that but given the last comment from JBP I don't think I can take anything at face value. Real talk though have you played in many high level/high power rpgs? I'm talking the 15+ range for D&D. kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 06:30
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kingcom posted:
No I was just making a joke after my statement about the wish spell having limitations and wish being fairly dependent on the DM's willingness to entertain your proposal. I thought you'd get that after the blow up the world comment. You stated that wish could make massive alterations, but the actual spell as written is still limited (rolling back a whole turn is obviously loving huge but it's still the upper limit) and has a draw back. Like everything else, it becomes more powerful with the combined creativity of player and DM.
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Mar 23, 2018 06:42
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Out of curiosity. What do martial-focused classes in other systems do which end up being so much grander than what a Level 20 Fighter in 5e is capable of? People always bring up systems here or there, but they don't give actual examples.
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Mar 23, 2018 06:53
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JBP posted:No I was just making a joke after my statement about the wish spell having limitations and wish being fairly dependent on the DM's willingness to entertain your proposal. I thought you'd get that after the blow up the world comment. You stated that wish could make massive alterations, but the actual spell as written is still limited (rolling back a whole turn is obviously loving huge but it's still the upper limit) and has a draw back. Like everything else, it becomes more powerful with the combined creativity of player and DM. If you say so? That was quite a diatribe about a magic item and your comment wouldn't be out of place in the slightest with people who say the martial/caster divide is fine. Anyway, yes you make a good point, creativity of the player. Thats a big point and its exactly what people are getting at. If you have a creative wizard you derail everything and can alter narratives all over the place. Theres a reason people say that attack spells and stuff like fireball is actually the least effecient and effective thing a caster can do. Its not their ability to damage things or even win a fight thats game changing. It's their ability to influence the narrative through a combination of their abilities and their creativity with said abilities that allows this to happen. No amount of creativity from a martial lets you match that kind of influence period. When a character can just fly and go invisible, things that are impossible for one character are now absolutely just a matter of deciding how far you push things for the other character. Spellcasters offer even more arcs for creativity that a martial does not get. Arthil posted:Out of curiosity. Err I just gave a list of examples and people throughout this thread give tonnes of examples from the 'I fly by having the ground be so afraid of me it propels me miles into the air' kind of stuff. Some systems set things up so a caster type must invest as many resources as non-caster would into their field so to learn a couple of spells the martial is an expert talky character with all sorts of abilities to reshape the story through narrative conflict AND they are a master swordsman while the wizard is now really good at telekinesis. Other system that intentionally have a super wizard alongside non-supers (im talking Ars Magica here) has everyone make a normal person and a wizard and you take it in turns as to whom plays the wizard while everyone else plays the normal. Often times there are actual roleplaying rules in systems beyond just the players (not characters) ability to talk that give the same level of narrative weight and power on rolls as combat has in D&D so a skill check from persuasion in a combat check might straight up convince people to switch sides and you as a player can come up with a reason or justification for why they did so. Some systems give everyone an equal set of points to spend to 'do amazing super thing your character can do' but the only way to get them back is agree to something a GM asks of you. So the specific powers are entirely limited by the player's desire rather than a defined power. People give lots and lots of examples here, I guess you're going to need to be more specific as to what you think is missing in peoples responses? kingcom fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 06:53
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Arthil posted:Out of curiosity. There are two different problems conflated as one here: 1. Fighters mostly only get to say "I attack" during combat 2. Fighters don't get to do much of anything with their fighter kit outside of combat Tons of systems have solved 1. 4e addressed 2 by also limiting out of combat magic, but maybe that's a cop-out in your eyes?
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Mar 23, 2018 06:55
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kingcom posted:Sorry my mistake I didn't understand that but given the last comment from JBP I don't think I can take anything at face value. Real talk though have you played in many high level/high power rpgs? I'm talking the 15+ range for D&D. I have played a few. It's gone better then I thought for each of them. Probably cause the people I have played with don't tend to be power gamers that I find it too hard to balance around.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:08
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kingcom posted:Spellcasters offer even more arcs for creativity that a martial does not get. Yeah I know and that is a fair comment, but also as people have said it's a guy with physical skills versus a guy commanding cosmic power. The only way I can think to overcome it throughout the entire game is letting fighters describe their moves and having them test. Having thought about the end game on the other hand, level 20 fighters could easily have a once per long rest Wish equivalent like "Incredible Feat of Strength" or something that is basically open ended with some guidelines. Maybe as a guide, you deliver a blow so powerful it can obliterate 500 square feet of terrain and any creature on it with less than 100hp, but also use the more creative side of wish and maybe declare you punch a dragon and defeat it with a single blow, but the DM has it come at some terrible price like half a mountain collapsing onto the city. Have it able to be used outside of combat like a Herculean miracle to automatically pass a check to push a massive stranded ship into the sea for instance. gently caress it I'm giving my fighters Wish from now on.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:08
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JBP posted:Yeah I know and that is a fair comment, but also as people have said it's a guy with physical skills versus a guy commanding cosmic power. The only way I can think to overcome it throughout the entire game is letting fighters describe their moves and having them test. what do you think a level is?
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Mar 23, 2018 07:10
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Elfgames posted:what do you think a level is? I don't understand the question, a measure of progress? I'm just saying that roughly the same time a wizard can use a level 9 spell or is considered all powerful (so 15-20), a fighter could access a similar creative outcome of their choosing to emulate mythic feats like the ones mentioned last page.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:15
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Arthil posted:Out of curiosity.      
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Mar 23, 2018 07:17
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MonsterEnvy posted:I have played a few. It's gone better then I thought for each of them. Probably cause the people I have played with don't tend to be power gamers that I find it too hard to balance around. Neither do I? I still run into the same problems of how to provide a plausible and interesting threat to both a martial character and a wizard, I usually have to get pretty drat creative about it. Once had a party fighting a Dracolich as the big villain the martials gimmick was basically turn into the hulk and make him as physically strong as the dracolich so he could fight in a brawl with it while the rest of the party teleporting in and out of its interdimensional phylacteries. Nothing in the game really helped me or explained anything and I basically had to make a whole new subsystem to give this character something to do that was both interesting and useful and the fighter didn't really have any ability to help him take them out. He was definitely looking a bit glum at the table after he realised a level 5-20 campaign was ending with him having nothing to do to take out the final boss as the party was coming up with their plan. I don't think anyone in the group were power gaming but between the sorcerer, paladin, bard, cleric he didn't excel in any field or situation with direct interference from the GM to keep poo poo afloat.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:24
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JBP posted:gently caress it I'm giving my fighters Wish from now on. Fighter Wish is unironically a good call and something I'm 100% going to give my player if for some reason I have a fighter in one of my games again.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:25
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Arthil posted:Out of curiosity.   
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Mar 23, 2018 07:30
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Arthil posted:Out of curiosity. To go with a totally unfair example, the Gunlugger is probably the closest thing to a D&D Fighter thematically in Apocalypse World. The Gunlugger is a badass, the baddest rear end. They start off with a gently caress-off big gun, two serious guns, the heaviest armour this side of a mech suit and moves that let them do things like 'fight a small gang on equal footing' or 'just do even more harm all the time forever'. There are other basic playbooks who have comparable Hard but only because they happen to have access to gangs or private armies. The Gunlugger's combination of traits mean that when the Gunlugger goes aggro or seizes by force, they are probably going to win as long as it's a straight-up fight. Against anything less than a cohesive gang of like two dozen people the odds are heavily in the Gunlugger's favour. Because no-one else can dish out unmitigated violence at the drop of a hat the way a Gunlugger can, this is how the Gunlugger carves out a narrative niche in the game: by being really, really good at killing people. This is what a Level 20 Fighter is supposed to be able to do in theory, but I think it's pretty well-documented that the best builds for being a fighty mans dip heavily into other classes, right?
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Mar 23, 2018 07:37
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At 17th level, a wizard can, once per day, pick a target within 60' that has <100hp, and that target dies. This is one of the worst of their 12 options. At 17th level a fighter gets another use of "take an extra action" (up to 2/day), and another use of "reroll one saving throw" (up to 3/day). There are no other options. If the wizard so chose, at 5th level they could give themselves up to 10 rounds of extra actions with Haste (And a +2 AC, and advantage on dex saves. Oh, and doubled speed). That's one of their many options for 3rd level spells. They can do that twice per day, three times per day from 6th level. But they also have other options, many of which are better than that.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:40
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MonsterEnvy posted:I was using Beyond so I did not have a page number at first. Anyway it's page 251 right below creature size. The average wizard has had Wish for 3 levels before they hit 20.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:42
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Thanks for the people actually providing examples. I was also mainly curious what systems the examples would be from too. I'd definitely enjoy playing as the classes being shown, though on the other hand I sorta of also like the Fighter in 5e. I find there's different kinds of enjoyment from being a more simple martial fighter, and as being something forged from myth. Maybe it's from not playing as long as the game has been out, but it always seemed that when it comes to the casters they can only do their stuff up to however many spell slots they have available, whereas everything a martial character gets tends to lean towards being Always On. If you view the issue then being the number of spell slots, reducing them overall could bring something like the Wizard down to a similar level. Forcing them to think a bit harder on what they use their slots for. There does need to be something more exciting as a baseline thing the class has at higher levels than "can attack four times in six seconds". I'm pretty sure that's not actually all that impressive even by real world standards.
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Mar 23, 2018 08:23
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I once again vainly posit that the idea of, 'magic is more powerful than fists' is not actually inevitable and is a problem unique to D&D and settings that derive from them. You can define magic however you want. It can be a bunch of rudimentary tricks that circumvent physical rules in really minor ways. 'Magic can do whatever, therefore it's better than mundane stuff' is not actually a definitive conclusion. Magic is better than mundane in D&D tho.
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Mar 23, 2018 08:35
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Arthil posted:There does need to be something more exciting as a baseline thing the class has at higher levels than "can attack four times in six seconds". I'm pretty sure that's not actually all that impressive even by real world standards. It kind of depends. If you're swishing a rapier it's unimpressive, but if you're swinging a huge weapon it's impressive when you add in action surges and stuff. Also the fact that you never tire and fight forever as you mentioned. I like to think of the fighter as John Everyman but agree when you're at the upper echelons of power in a crazy world, you should probably be sundering the earth with every strike and at the very least be knocking man sized targets back 40ft, slamming them into walls or if wielding a dex weapon be striking so swiftly and precisely it makes an opponent's head spin.
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Mar 23, 2018 08:37
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