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Zaodai posted:[EDIT] Which in essence does pick them a side in the NRWR/Clan conflict. The NRWR, since they put themselves on the Clan shitlist. My point is that they already have a side - the new Star League. The Clans are not united anyway, it is like saying FWL warring with the CC puts them on the Inner Sphere shitlist. Weissritter fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 08:08
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SLDF warships are that bad? That's disappointing.Weissritter posted:My point is that they already have a side - the new Star League. The Clans are not united anyway, it is like saying FWL warring with the CC puts them on the Inner Sphere shitlist. The Star League isn't centralized enough that the FWL won't have its own foreign policy, and the Star League itself will need to decide between the Invasion Clans (that is, the handful of First Invasion Clans that aren't already trying to grind the new Star League into dust because they're momentarily focused on the Second Invasion Clans, the Draconis Combine and the NRWR) and the parts of the Inner Sphere that aren't part of their club yet. Pretty much every Inner Sphere power that isn't aligned with the Star League, with the only notable exception being the Capellans, is already at war with the Invading Clans, in a full alliance with someone that is, or will eventually be attacked for being part of the Star League or just for being in the Inner Sphere. In that conflict the Snow Ravens, Sea Foxes and Goliath Scorpions are almost certainly on the side of Clan Wolf and the Second Invasion and against the Star League and the Inner Sphere powers. The Star League would also probably be very happy to trade covert support for technological support, if Amaris isn't too arrogant to think he doesn't need it. It's not like the Clan Watch are going to find out. --- To list out the Star League and non-Star League powers that are co-belligerents against the Clans (especially the Second Invasion): Viper Alliance: Star League, under existential threat from the Second Invasion Skye: Star League, under existential threat from the Second Invasion Lyran Commonwealth: Star League iirc, allied with Viper Alliance, Under existential threat from the Second Invasion ComStar: Star League iirc, don't want to hand over Terra to the Second Invasion, plan to dominate the Inner Sphere by not letting the Clans take over Free World League: Allied with the Star League against the Second Invasion, at war with the Capellans Draconis Combine: Under Existential threat from the First Invasion, allied with the Federated Suns, and will likely come under existential threat from the Second Invasion Federated Suns: Allied with Draconis Combine against First and probably the Second Invasion if they crush the First Invasion in DC space NRWR: at war with the First Invasion, believes Comstar is helping it against the Clans, under existential threat from either Clan Invasion if they find out, perhaps even the Viper Alliance part of the Star League (but I hear they are busy) Capellans: co-belligerents with the Clans against the Free World League and thus the Star League Taurian Concordat: have every reason to remain co-belligerent with the Capellans as long as Hanse doesn't attack them outright. If the Taurians are rational they'll trade a large chunk of of New Syrtis back for an alliance with the Federated Suns against the Capellans. Outworlds Alliance: co-belligerent with the First Clan Invasion against a duchy of the Federated Suns through their alliance with the Draconis Combine Hell's Horses: allied with the Draconis Combine and Federated Suns w/ Clan Invasions Goliath Scorpions + Burrocks: will almost certainly side with the Second Invasion so they don't get crushed Snow Ravens & Sea Foxes: if they stop trying to genocide an IS faction (something the Star League is probably against) and flee back to the first invasion corridors why would they side with the First Invasion and die? I suppose there's some chance they might seek refuge with the FWL or Capellans. The other First Invasion Clans: they're going to die, but perhaps some of them will, in the interest of survival, defect to whatever IS faction they're currently fighting So, the only IS states/factions that aren't outright already under invasion and existential threat by either Clan Invasion, are allied with someone that is with the only exceptions being the Capellans, the Outworld Alliance, and the Taurians (who at best will fight both the Capellans and the Federates Suns), plus other minor periphery houses and pirates. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 08:49
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Defiance Industries posted:I think part of it is the difference in scale between SLDF and House navies. Ships like the Tharkad operated in much smaller groups than the equivalent SLDF vessel did, and because the Houses tended to built far fewer types of ships they didn't really have the luxury of specialized designs. It's kind of the same principal you see from the 31st century CCAF, where they just built a fuckton of Vindicators because their limited production dictated that they needed to focus on capable generalists. That's probably part of it, but it would make more sense if ships like the Congress were only intended for fleet actions, in the same way that you'd see lances or companies of Vindicators supporting each other and they can still lay down some fire even if they're mediocre individually. The problem is that SLDF doctrine has destroyers, frigates and sometimes even cruisers operating independently or with only 1-2 escorts as part of patrol elements, anti-pirate maneuvers, supply missions, etc. Even the squadron-level organization is mostly for fleet maneuvers and administration. Most SLDF ships are designed to operate on their own for long periods if they have to, that's part of why they devote so much room to cargo in the first place. It would make sense for ships that are considered to be convoy protection or recon/picket ships to have reasonable fighter protection. But the Congress, with its piddly 8 large lasers, is actually almost over-gunned in fighter protection terms compared to most other SLDF ships. It's also weird when you think of it in terms of modern naval doctrine - almost everything afloat that has guns has most of its firepower dedicated to anti-air. Ordinarily you could write that off as everyone in the setting forgetting any military doctrine newer than Napoleon, but since contemporary non-SLDF ships seem to be designed with fighters in mind it's still weird even with House navies needing more generalists due to scale. RA Rx posted:SLDF warships are that bad? That's disappointing. A lot of SLDF-era ships are kind of underarmored and lack protection from fighters. They can lay out some drat good broadsides and are great for orbital bombardment and so on. But most post-Clan Invasion ships are more effectively designed, and a lot of the House (and even Periphery) designs from the SLDF era are much more similar to the modern designs than the SLDF ones. I think that's mostly due to when they were published, though. Fraction Jackson fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 08:58
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Zaodai posted:The Bears are barely involved. They sent a cluster along and most of that was dead before we came in. Also the Ravens/Foxes are kind of off on their own, given that they went on their own crusade once they found out about the trap. Given that they (we) elected not to tell any of the other Clans about finding an Amaris descendant and abandoned their primary mission to go chase glory alone, we have yet to see how the remaining Clans react when they find out what happened, especially since as far as the Ravens/Foxes know, they were successful in killing Amaris (since they did assassinate Uncle Stevie). It is fairly likely that the Andurien Clans will see joining up with a "new" Star League to be a betrayal of the cause while they were off doing the old Star League's work (in their minds). Actually, they did find out about a descendant of Amaris, through Clan Ice Hellion after their bungled attempt to win some Inner Sphere holdings. Their response was to ressurect Clan Wolf, strip all the IS Clans except Fox, Raven, Scorpion, and Burrock of their Bloodnames for participating in Natasha's blatent betrayal of not telling them The Anti-Christ was still alive, and then launch a second crusade to murderpurge them. We haven't seen the fallout from that decision yet, though I suspect that between the NRWR showing up to ravage their industrial base and the Society deciding to choose that time to scream 'gently caress the Warrior Caste', the Second Crusade will not end well. Fraction Jackson posted:That's probably part of it, but it would make more sense if ships like the Congress were only intended for fleet actions, in the same way that you'd see lances or companies of Vindicators supporting each other and they can still lay down some fire even if they're mediocre individually. Ya know, I don't thing the SLDF ever actually engaged in any fleet actions during the Star League-era, outside of the Amaris Coup. None of the great houses were willing to get into a fleet battle with them, the Perigphery didn't even HAVE any Warships of any kind, and as for the Coup itself, they probably wouldn't have had any time to analyze and correct the glaring flaws in their fleet's designs considering the whole collapse of their entire government and subsequent flight from the Inner Sphere that followed. Likewise with the Clans. Fleet actions would have been incredibly rare since they're very wasteful and most contests could be settled on a Cluster-level as opposed to a Naval-level. I imagine that the Clans naval fleets probably didn't see any real action up until the Jihad, when they went up against the Blakists who actually DID have their own Warfleet and a reason to use it instead of just posture with it. Rorahusky fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 09:41
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I think the Periphery states did have warships during the Reunification War.
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Mar 23, 2018 10:06
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Nah, I don't think so. Just having actual Battlemechs was considered a Huge Deal for the Periphery, there's no way they could have gotten themselves a Warship, let alone maintained or successfully used such a huge investment of time and resources.
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Mar 23, 2018 10:30
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Rorahusky posted:Nah, I don't think so. Just having actual Battlemechs was considered a Huge Deal for the Periphery, there's no way they could have gotten themselves a Warship, let alone maintained or successfully used such a huge investment of time and resources. Tell that to the Taurians. Periphery as complete useless shitholes is a consequence of the Succession Wars. Even Canopus had a sizeable navy when the SLDF came knocking. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 10:34
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Fraction Jackson posted:It's kind of amazing how bad a lot of SLDF-era designs are. Like, not even talking armor or capital weapons setup here...  You're supposed to fight on the ground, in battlemechs! Like Kerensky intended!  Or realistically: Naval doctrine hadn't figured out that throwing a lot of small relatively inexpensive craft at a giant, rather expensive one was the way to go to get things done. The SLDF navy sounds like a good idea for one in an era where you just don't see many planes fighting ships. Only instead of aerospace technology being the big holdup, it's all this hubbub about battlemechs 
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Mar 23, 2018 10:48
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Okay, you're right, the Taurans did field a navy during the reunification wars, though they lost most of that during an engagement with the SLDF. As for the Canopians and Outworld Alliance, the Canopians could only field 17 'Mech regiments (with no industry to help with replacements) and I can't find anything about them fielding a navy in the Periphery Handbook, and the Outworld had a grand total of a 120 light 'Mechs to their name.
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Mar 23, 2018 10:55
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Fraction Jackson posted:What was the SLDF doing? Orbital Bombardments, mostly. The designs (and cargo space) make a lot more space if you imagine the SLDF is trying to cause as much ecological devastation as possible.
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Mar 23, 2018 11:18
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Fraction Jackson posted:...well, you have 200,000 tons of cargo... It's almost like they were designed with enough cargo space for an exodus. Friggin SLDF was planning to run away from the start!
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Mar 23, 2018 12:09
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Sounds like a navy for people who never intended anyone else to have a navy.
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Mar 23, 2018 12:12
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Explorer Corps: "Hey, we found three really nice planets with amazing habitats, water supplies, and biodiversity." Colonists: "Yay!" SLDF:  Colonists: "... Hey, what gives? Two of these planets are deserts and one of them is mostly frozen!"
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Mar 23, 2018 12:17
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Why would the SLDF be that against new colonies?
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Mar 23, 2018 13:18
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Why would the SLDF be that against new colonies? They're not against new colonies. They're against self-sufficient new colonies that could compete with Terran hegemony. So they'd cripple planets in ways that would leave the colony reliant on Terra.
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Mar 23, 2018 13:22
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Control, mainly. The Terran Hegemony, which comprised the center of the Star League, were very much control freaks trying to keep all of humanity under their thumbs. Hell, if the Lyrans hadn't stolen Battlemech technology from them, in all likelihood, the Terrans wouldn't have become mediators, but rather conquerers. I mean, just look at the way they treated the Periphery. They were doing just fine, they weren't really hurting anyone, and when asked if they wanted to join the Star League, their reply was a polite but firm 'No thanks', to which the Star League went 'YOU'RE JOINING THIS MISSION OF PEACE EVEN IF I HAVE TO /MURDER/ YOU!' In short, the Star League was kiiiind of colossal shitheads and a lot of that shittiness gets glossed over because people don't wanna take off their rose color glasses.
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Mar 23, 2018 13:25
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If you want a fun read on Sarna, check out the entry for the Ryan Cartel. Edit: The Terran Hegemony was not really expecting to find anywhere near as many human habitable planets as they did, which also helps explain why their warships are designed to operate for years without resupply. ▼▼▼▼ PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 13:31
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Narratively it's great for explaining why the inner sphere is the size it is and why it's so difficult for anyone to build up an economic base. Humanity self-sabotaging space colonisation for petty sort term political reasons is totally believable (except for the sldf being able to keep their doing secret).
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Mar 23, 2018 13:34
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Y'know, in-Universe everyone in the Inner Sphere (not the Periphery, obviously) talked up the SLDF like it was this great and powerful and well-trained army, but every time I crack open a source book, I see a lot of them getting beat up by forces that should be inferior to them. Like the duels against the Draconis Combine (which let to the Gunslinger program) or the actual campaigns against the Periphery (the initial invasion, and then the insurrections), or hell, even the war against the RWR. Were the SLDF actually any good? Was Kerensky actually a good general, or did he just have tons of warriors (and good kit) that he'd throw at objectives until he won due to attrition?
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Mar 23, 2018 15:14
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painedforever posted:Y'know, in-Universe everyone in the Inner Sphere (not the Periphery, obviously) talked up the SLDF like it was this great and powerful and well-trained army, but every time I crack open a source book, I see a lot of them getting beat up by forces that should be inferior to them. Like the duels against the Draconis Combine (which let to the Gunslinger program) or the actual campaigns against the Periphery (the initial invasion, and then the insurrections), or hell, even the war against the RWR. I'm not sure we have enough information to make a realistic assessment. It may be that he was the best of a bad lot.
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Mar 23, 2018 16:42
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The SLDF is exactly what you'd expect from a bloated money-eating interstellar army who buys ships from whichever bidder offered the best bribes that day and who continues to buy garbage for decades because they have a contract for 3000 of the things and they're getting their money's worth drat it.
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Mar 23, 2018 17:01
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PoptartsNinja posted:The SLDF is exactly what you'd expect from a bloated money-eating interstellar army who buys ships from whichever bidder offered the best bribes that day and who continues to buy garbage for decades because they have a contract for 3000 of the things and they're getting their money's worth drat it. Well that hits awfully close to home.
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Mar 23, 2018 17:09
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Don't forget that the SLDF had also spent years waging a propaganda war at before engaging in hostilities with the Periphery, and kind of ended up believing their own hype. They figured the natives with their outdated tanks and pointy sticks would stand no chance against their forces, and estimated that it would take a whole five years to conquer them. Instead it was a 20 year quagmire involving a lot of assymetrical warfare, not unlike the war in the Middle East is in RL.
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Mar 23, 2018 17:15
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Fraction Jackson posted:What was the SLDF doing? I'm assuming smuggling lots and lots of space weed.
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Mar 23, 2018 17:44
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PoptartsNinja posted:The SLDF is exactly what you'd expect from a bloated money-eating interstellar army who buys ships from whichever bidder offered the best bribes that day and who continues to buy garbage for decades because they have a contract for 3000 of the things and they're getting their money's worth drat it. Wow. That's a hell of an opinion, PTN. There's ordinary dislike, and then there's this.
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Mar 23, 2018 18:04
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painedforever posted:Wow. That's a hell of an opinion, PTN. There's ordinary dislike, and then there's this. That's not dislike. That's just how the SLDF was. It had an economy fed by dozens of worlds, and a pathological need to say 'My dick's bigger than yours' See the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cameron_(WarShip_class) as a typical example of SLDF procurement.
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Mar 23, 2018 18:23
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Massive hegemonic empires tend to be dicks.
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Mar 23, 2018 18:24
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They also made sure as few colonies were able to self support as possible so when interstellar travel started to break down, everyone on Planet Shoe starved.
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Mar 23, 2018 18:48
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Oh this is going to be fantastic  I'm assuming the opfor will be similarly insane
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Mar 23, 2018 18:52
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Defiance Industries posted:They also made sure as few colonies were able to self support as possible so when interstellar travel started to break down, everyone on Planet Shoe starved. Like I mentioned before, the Terran Hegemony, aka the people who founded and lead the Star League, were gigantic control freaks, and the last thing a control freak wants is for their people to Not Need Them Anymore, so they deliberately engineered situations to force other worlds and nations to be as dependent upon them as possible. After all, if they need something only you can give them, you have power over them. That's pretty much why the Reunification Wars happened. The Periphery was nice and independent, they didn't need no far away government telling them how to live... so the Star league came along, crushed them down, and then rebuilt their society to be reliant on their 'friends' in the Star League. Then it collapsed and the Periphery got all kinds of hosed over as they no longer had the infrastructure to take care of themselves, and had to scramble to find workarounds and stopgaps. Same thing happened to the Successor States on a lesser scale, though for them it was far less damaging since they were already in the process of pulling themselves away and untangling themselves from the Star League by the time it collapsed. Too bad they kind of nuked each other liberally.
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Mar 23, 2018 19:31
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painedforever posted:Wow. That's a hell of an opinion, PTN. There's ordinary dislike, and then there's this. That isn't dislike. Canon Stefan Amaris was a monster but the Camerons were no better. They were, at the absolute most generous, figureheads for an extremely brutal authoritarian regime. BattleTech is a universe where interstellar Democracy died. You'll still find (a good many) individual planets that have democratic governments, but the closest you'll find to Interstellar Democracy in the Inner Sphere is the Lyran Commonwealth, whose wealthiest members elect their dictator-for-life (from appropriate Steiner bloodlines), and the Free Worlds League whose Parliament can theoretically strip a Captain-General of power but which in practice NO YOU SHUT UP. That's why I don't really mind every major government being cruel, stupid, and fraught with nepotism. It's a quiet condemnation of authoritarianism on the whole. Edit: BattleTech is a setting where the Lady Kaiser Wilhelm, Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor Hirohito, Basileus Constantine, and Lady Mao Joseph Zedong Stalin are having space tank fights with each other and occasionally peace out to beat up on Chagatai Khan. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 19:33
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Battletech is the most realistic sci-fi setting, where humanity conquered the stars so we could make all the same mistakes.
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Mar 23, 2018 19:46
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PoptartsNinja posted:The SLDF is exactly what you'd expect from a bloated money-eating interstellar army who buys ships from whichever bidder offered the best bribes that day and who continues to buy garbage for decades because they have a contract for 3000 of the things and they're getting their money's worth drat it. Something something Quikcell
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Mar 23, 2018 20:21
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A looooot of designs in Battletech became prolific not because they were good, but because a company greased the hand of key politicians to get contracts. And other designs ended up with so much meddling from the military complex who wanted Do Everything Ultra Kill Machines that it's a wonder that they even worked at all. Essentially this happened, but IN SPAAAAACE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
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Mar 23, 2018 20:44
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It definitely explains the existence of the Shadow Hawk.
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Mar 23, 2018 20:52
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PoptartsNinja posted:Orbital Bombardments, mostly. It does seem to be a large part of the doctrine - even if they didn't often have full fleet deployments, simply the threat of it makes for a nice analogue to historical gunboat diplomacy. It's still no excuse for not bothering to have anti-fighter defenses though, at least to me. painedforever posted:Wow. That's a hell of an opinion, PTN. There's ordinary dislike, and then there's this. The Star League really wasn't the good guys. It's actually one of the most interesting parts about the setting as a whole. Pretty much every single entity in canon is dedicated in some way to the memory of the Golden Age of the Star League. The Clans and Comstar see themselves as carrying on part of its mission; the Successor States are dedicated to vying for its throne; in the early portions of the canon SLDF stuff is Just Better, and so on. And then you find out they were just about as lovely as anyone else. It's not that all the cool weaponry and medical tech and communications tech and so on didn't exist - it's not fake in that way - it was just backed by a government that more or less resembles how colonial empires functioned. They end up seeming like the "good guys" in comparison to Amaris, in part because Kerensky comes off as sympathetic and because Amaris is who he is. But everyone looks like the good guys in comparison to Hitler, and while fighting against Hitler is good, fighting against Hitler doesn't preclude a particular political entity from also being into some bad poo poo. And the Camerons were into a lot of bad poo poo.
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Mar 23, 2018 21:10
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wiegieman posted:Battletech is the most realistic sci-fi setting, where humanity conquered the stars so we could make all the same mistakes. I remember reading somewhere a very cogent explanation of various subgenres of science fiction that went something like "transhumanist SF posits that technology can address the human condition and allow us to become something greater, something better, than we were before. Cyberpunk posits that even if technology can do that, it won't."
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Mar 23, 2018 21:14
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PoptartsNinja posted:Lady Mao Joseph Zedong Stalin. Awesome reference, you clearly know your history. Most people don't truly understand the damage done by Lady Mao; while the Chairman may have been homicidal, the Lady destroyed the culture of an entire society.
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Mar 23, 2018 21:15
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I remember reading somewhere a very cogent explanation of various subgenres of science fiction that went something like "transhumanist SF posits that technology can address the human condition and allow us to become something greater, something better, than we were before. Cyberpunk posits that even if technology can do that, it won't." I think I remember it ending "even if the technology can, the people won't."
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Mar 23, 2018 21:20
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goatface posted:I think I remember it ending "even if the technology can, the people won't." Which is fair, given that the people have to make the technology. We build some of our flaws into any given system, because it still has to interact with us.
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Mar 23, 2018 21:33
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