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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Make it simple; you only gain CP and may only use stratagems from the detachment your Warlord is in. This is a good post. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:40K should go back there too. 3rd edition really was the best. This is not a good post.
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Mar 24, 2018 11:39
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CP should not be linked to army composition in any way except to get the CP when an army is battle forged, because right now it's an incentive to take multiple battalions to get the most out of it.
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Mar 24, 2018 11:41
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Alternatively: You get 3 CP flat + 1 for every thousand points total.
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Mar 24, 2018 11:48
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DancingShade posted:Alternatively: You get 3 CP flat + 1 for every thousand points total. There are armies that are balanced around higher CP, like guard who have most of their 'power moves' hidden behind Strats.
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Mar 24, 2018 12:27
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How about -1 CP per Codex you use that your Warlord isn't part of? Or possibly make that per Detachment that contains any models that aren't from your Primary Codex. Problem is that penalises fluffy lists like Word Bearers with a bunch of Daemons, or anyone not running pure Knights, etc.
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Mar 24, 2018 12:38
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I do think there is balance in the CP and stratagem system. Like when I'm using my World Eaters I struggle to get a huge amount of CPs but then again I don't have a huge amount of stratagems to use. Switching to Tau I counted 18 stratagem last night that I could have used during my game. None of them are massively powerful effects (compared to my opponents Veterans of Long War and Endless Cacophony) but I had multiple options in every phase (well bar the obvious one)
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Mar 24, 2018 13:04
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Running white scars I’m also limited to 4 CP total if I want the army to be even somewhat fluffy. To be honest there wouldn’t be a need to have niche detachments if they did the “x counts as troops” to encourage and limit a factions strengths. Limit to one detachment. It worked in 3rd. Remove the supreme command detachment, or change it to -3 CP at a minimum.
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Mar 24, 2018 13:39
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Remove stratagems. Bring back the old FOC. Nuclear option.
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Mar 24, 2018 13:43
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Zark the Damned posted:How about -1 CP per Codex you use that your Warlord isn't part of? Or possibly make that per Detachment that contains any models that aren't from your Primary Codex. Then the first extra codex/index (that is: the second) is free and beyond that the penalties stack?
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Mar 24, 2018 13:47
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Schadenboner posted:Then the first extra codex/index (that is: the second) is free and beyond that the penalties stack? No, because that still let's you do dumb poo poo like a mixed ultramarine / raven guard force with no penalty.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:00
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Just remove command points. Then force everyone to run Necromunda gangs on the 40k battlefield instead of armies. None of these solutions are required BTW, if you just play with friends. By all means make labyrinthine rules for your local tournie though.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:01
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Zark the Damned posted:How about -1 CP per Codex you use that your Warlord isn't part of? Or possibly make that per Detachment that contains any models that aren't from your Primary Codex. There isn't really such a thing as a 'primary codex' though. Some units still only have index rules, some come from FW books, and later on I expect new units will be added using some combination of rules in the kit or storyline campaign books. The most obvious case is gonna be when GW get around to re-doing Slaanesh daemons, and you see a bunch of new & revamped datasheets not from the codex. I think the easiest quick-fix is to only earn CP for your Warlord's detachment, but even then I think that may too badly penalise armies with few or very expensive Troops options.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:09
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DancingShade posted:Just remove command points. Some of us want to be able to play pickup games and may not be able to just turn down games because people bring lovely lists without losing our chance to play that night entirely. I'd prefer the game to have reasonable rules so that we don't have to houserule how to not make lovely lists.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:10
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Booley posted:No, because that still let's you do dumb poo poo like a mixed ultramarine / raven guard force with no penalty. "Only units with <CHAPTER> matching that of the Warlord may use Chapter Tactics"
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Mar 24, 2018 14:34
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Booley posted:Some of us want to be able to play pickup games and may not be able to just turn down games because people bring lovely lists without losing our chance to play that night entirely. I'd prefer the game to have reasonable rules so that we don't have to houserule how to not make lovely lists. Don't play with people that make lovely lists.  Social consequences for being a dick isn't exclusive to "normal" society.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:42
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Strobe posted:Don't play with people that make lovely lists. Codifying agreed-upon rules of behavior is the basis of society, though?
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Mar 24, 2018 14:47
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Currently for matched play, everything in the army has to have a faction keyword in common. I'd like to see armies get a small bonus for choosing a more specific faction keyword over something more general. For example, if you choose Chaos you get no special bonus, if you choose something more specific like Tzeentch or Chaos Space Marines you might get +1 CP, and if you choose one individual subfaction like Nurgle Daemons, it could be +3 CP. The keyword choices could be designed to encourage combining armies that more naturally work together, so there could be a keyword for fielding Astra Militarum with Militarum Tempestus or Sisters of Battle with Ministorum forces. I'd like the bonuses to be relatively small so that a general Imperial or Chaos army is still a good choice, but I think there should be some benefit for having the entire army fit a particular theme.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:55
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END CHEMTRAILS NOW posted:Currently for matched play, everything in the army has to have a faction keyword in common. I'd like to see armies get a small bonus for choosing a more specific faction keyword over something more general. For example, if you choose Chaos you get no special bonus, if you choose something more specific like Tzeentch or Chaos Space Marines you might get +1 CP, and if you choose one individual subfaction like Nurgle Daemons, it could be +3 CP. The keyword choices could be designed to encourage combining armies that more naturally work together, so there could be a keyword for fielding Astra Militarum with Militarum Tempestus or Sisters of Battle with Ministorum forces. I'd like the bonuses to be relatively small so that a general Imperial or Chaos army is still a good choice, but I think there should be some benefit for having the entire army fit a particular theme. You'll get someone complaining that your rules are disadvantaging their Forges Of Mars inspired kitchen sink army.
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Mar 24, 2018 14:58
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3rd edition was rad because black templars were a nigthmare in melee
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Mar 24, 2018 15:11
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I like when melee mattered.
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Mar 24, 2018 15:23
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Kung Fu Fist gently caress posted:3rd edition was rad because black templars were a nigthmare in melee Was that when they had the "Fall back TOWARD the enemy" vow? Cuz that ruled.
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Mar 24, 2018 15:25
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That rule was complete bullshit.
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Mar 24, 2018 15:28
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Floppychop posted:It's Forge World, so for Battlescribe you have to have the FW Adeptus Astartes selected. I found the FW adeptius entry but when I make an air wing it only accepts FW fliers, is this correct or can I add the other Storms fliers that are GW/BA natives. And if my Libby Dread can fly every turn then he should totally have the keyword FLY
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Mar 24, 2018 15:29
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DiHK posted:I found the FW adeptius entry but when I make an air wing it only accepts FW fliers, is this correct or can I add the other Storms fliers that are GW/BA natives. Battlescribe is a bit awkward for setting up detachments that include units from multiple books. If you add the FW astartes entry as a sub-entry to your normal BA battalion or whatever you can take both as part of the same detachment. Your libby dread does have the keyword FLY when his wings have manifest. The Flyer role is independent of the FLY keyword. Assault marines with jump packs are not Flyers, and Devastators are Heavy Support even if they're only armed with boltguns.
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Mar 24, 2018 15:34
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Real talk the only problem with 8th is that horus heresy doesn't use it.
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Mar 24, 2018 15:44
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there's a real nerd fetish for one-size-fits-all rulings when most of the trouble seems to come from very specific things that could probably be fixed on their own.
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Mar 24, 2018 15:49
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Der Waffle Mous posted:there's a real nerd fetish for one-size-fits-all rulings when most of the trouble seems to come from very specific things that could probably be fixed on their own. Agree with this emphatically
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Mar 24, 2018 15:51
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Was that when they had the "Fall back TOWARD the enemy" vow? yeeesssss  they also had a vow where everyone hit on a 3+ or better in melee, and you could give powerfists to regular marines so they couldnt be targeted before they got to swing
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Mar 24, 2018 16:01
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Der Waffle Mous posted:there's a real nerd fetish for one-size-fits-all rulings when most of the trouble seems to come from very specific things that could probably be fixed on their own. Exploiting detachments to crib extremely powerful relics is a problem that will likely persist, but yeah the issue tends to be rooted moreso in certain units just being too powerful for their point costs; flyrants, shield-captains, and chaos psykers to be precise. Like, if you divorce the fact that flyrants are really good right now, that imperial guard + hive tyrant list could look pretty cool with proper conversion and paint.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:07
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Corrode posted:
Right now, you are typically rewarded for taking multiple detachments. If I add Custodes to my Mechanicus or Khorne to my Tzeentch, I get rewarded both by being able to cherry pick units and rules and I also get CP for free. All I'm suggesting is that you get to choose between cherry picking and the CP gravy train.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:11
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tbh how much of all this would be fixed if you just nerfed kurov's and grand strategist
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Mar 24, 2018 16:13
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Neurolimal posted:Exploiting detachments to crib extremely powerful relics is a problem that will likely persist, but yeah the issue tends to be rooted moreso in certain units just being too powerful for their point costs; flyrants, shield-captains, and chaos psykers to be precise. Really? It had a superheavy tank, 7 identical big nids, and a handful of other required models to fill out detachments. It wasn't a nid army, it wasn't a guard army, and it wasn't a gsc army. It could be really cool if it had some actual unit variety though. Some actual GSC units so that it makes sense for a shadowsword to be running around with a bunch of nids. The kind of thing the detachment system was supposed to create. Instead, the supreme command detachment lets people run full armies of pure HQs. That detachment needs to go. You can usually get enough HQs out of your other detachments to run interesting things like a librarian conclave, and if it turns out you can't then just trow 1 more optional HQ onto other detachments, but it's stupid that you can tack a detachment of 5 flyrants onto a GSC army or 3 shield captains onto any imperial army or 5 cheap chaos psykers onto any chaos army, and gain incredibly valuable command points for doing so.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:16
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Booley posted:Really? It had a superheavy tank, 7 identical big nids, and a handful of other required models to fill out detachments. It wasn't a nid army, it wasn't a guard army, and it wasn't a gsc army. I dont disagree with you at all; supreme command is a dumb handout to people who ran stupid 7e lists.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:36
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Supreme Command is one of those things where even the ostensibly intended use-case has no business being in regular-sized games of 40k. (being a replacement for the dumb "take 5 powered up librarians" formations or dumb apocalypse Court of the Young King shenanigans)
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Mar 24, 2018 16:43
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Serious question, how much do the shield captains and others need to shift before they're fair? As a new player, I like the idea of being able to collect a bunch of smaller detachments and teams and getting to smush them together on the field. It doesn't feel like as much investment into a play style I might find out I don't like. Plus, as a new player, being able to fill out 1/4 of my list with three cool models means there's a much better chance that my poo poo won't just be primered when it hits the table. Maybe I'm part of the problem, but ever since I've been reading this thread, everything that looks cool or fun to play with always has people shrieking about it. Guard? No, broken. Jetbikes? No, broken. Nids? GTFO. I can already hear the gnashing teeth from when GW has the nerve to release the next codex. On a related note, I played my first game last week. We won heartily, by paying attention to victory points. My opponents tried to cheat by moving the terrain after the sides has been determined when everyone else went out for a smoke. They also kept trying to pick and choose between beta/ non beta rules. I almost picked up my dollies and left because of all the bullshit going on, but it was a doubles match, and I didn't want to let my teammate down. Final score was 37-2, so I guess that's what matters?
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Mar 24, 2018 16:47
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My most enduring and scarring 3e memory was a friend annihilating me in a tournament with a blood angels rhino rush. As far as fixing detachments and cross faction stuff, I think some sort of bonus for having an army at each “level” of keyword is a good place to start. Big bonus if your whole army is ravenwing, medium bonus if your whole army is dark angels, small bonus if your whole army is adeptus astartes, no bonus if your whole army is imperium. CP can be conceptually abstracted as the span of control of your warlord, so maybe combine that army wide bonus with the suggestion that detachments that have tags that mismatch your warlord not generate CP or generate a CP penalty. That seems like a good balance where a tightly focused list generates more CP and has an army wide bonus, while a soup list is still something you can take but you’re a little clumsier and can’t use as many stratagems over the course of the game. All of this doesn’t really matter though since I doubt GW would d that kind of revision.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:53
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I'm going to take the moderate stance that I am perfectly happy to play against armies that come to casual pickups with Bike Shield Captain Supreme Command detachments. So long as I get to take a hammer to the models at the end of the game, I'll call it fair.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:54
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Liquid Communism posted:I'm going to take the moderate stance that I am perfectly happy to play against armies that come to casual pickups with Bike Shield Captain Supreme Command detachments. So long as I get to take a hammer to the models at the end of the game, I'll call it fair. This is also a reasonable approach.
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Mar 24, 2018 16:55
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Beast Pussy posted:Maybe I'm part of the problem, but ever since I've been reading this thread, everything that looks cool or fun to play with always has people shrieking about it. Guard? No, broken. Jetbikes? No, broken. Nids? GTFO. I can already hear the gnashing teeth from when GW has the nerve to release the next codex. None of these are a problem in and of themselves. The problem comes when you start mashing things together. A guard army is strong, yes, but perfectly fine to play against (even if kurov + grand strategist needs a nerf). Jetbike captains are fine - as part of a custodes army. Nid armies are strong, but also fine to play against, unless you do dumb poo poo like run nothing but 7 flyrants. The problem comes when your guard army is a company commander with grand strategist and kurov's, 2 psykers, and a shadowsword, and then a bare minimum 150 points of genestealer cults to be the glue that lets you attach that to a bunch of flyrants. Or when your space marine army badly needs more command points so you take 180 points worth of guard to give you the chaff marines don't get and 3 more CP. Or when you can tack 3 jetbike captains onto any imperial army to give you a super tough mobile force that can clear chaff and elites well, and gives you more CP.
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Mar 24, 2018 17:03
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Death to Supreme Command
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Mar 24, 2018 17:30
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