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Grendels Dad posted:Oh so Senators are like Jedi, too? No? It was just a program on Alderaan to get youth interested in the legislative process. It wasn't. As far as I know, a hereditary thing or any guarantee of actually getting elected
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Mar 25, 2018 22:17
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Grendels Dad posted:Oh so Senators are like Jedi, too? Get outta here Brevik!
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Mar 25, 2018 22:45
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porfiria posted:Get outta here Brevik! Ouch, yeah that came out wrong. I apologize, in general.
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Mar 25, 2018 23:03
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Schwarzwald posted:That's pretty much exactly what I took out of the Canto Bright and DJ segments. There are real, definite actions people could be taking to promote justice, freedom, and goodness or whatever, but the Resistance is not doing them in preference to playing spaceships with the First Order. Fascist's blowing up solar systems with Superweapons and maintaining Empire sized fleets is totally not an important problem for the Resistance to solve? I mean the Western allies in WWII had some bad domestic problems to solve but The Nazi's weren't going to shoot themselves (Hitler excluded). What I want to know is who ran Canto Bight exactly? They make it seem like the Republic ruled the galaxy until 2 minutes ago yet the planet is rife with slavery and openly sells weapons to the First Order.
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Mar 26, 2018 01:30
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galagazombie posted:What I want to know is who ran Canto Bight exactly? They make it seem like the Republic ruled the galaxy until 2 minutes ago yet the planet is rife with slavery and openly sells weapons to the First Order. Hmm. Kinda sounds like the old republic
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Mar 26, 2018 01:38
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The New Republic was incredibly hands off. Like...possibly even more so than the Old Republic. Anyone who didn't want to voluntarily sign on with the NR could just go whatever they wanted.
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Mar 26, 2018 01:39
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Caros posted:You realize that refusing to tell her visibly shaken and demoralized crew about her plan is what led to Poe and Finn heading off on their own. That if she'd just replied 'There is an old rebel base up ahead, we are going to ditch the ship there and make the first order think they killed us.' rather than 'You need to trust me even as we lose ship after ship with no plan in sight' that he probably would have gone along with it. They were just chased through hyperspace, previously thought impossible - the logical conclusion is that they either have hitherto unrevealed technology enabling them to do so, or a spy. The possibility of the latter necessitates keeping tight-lipped about the plan.
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Mar 26, 2018 02:07
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galagazombie posted:Fascist's blowing up solar systems with Superweapons and maintaining Empire sized fleets is totally not an important problem for the Resistance to solve? That's what the film suggests.
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Mar 26, 2018 02:33
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Caros posted:You realize that refusing to tell her visibly shaken and demoralized crew about her plan is what led to Poe and Finn heading off on their own. That if she'd just replied 'There is an old rebel base up ahead, we are going to ditch the ship there and make the first order think they killed us.' rather than 'You need to trust me even as we lose ship after ship with no plan in sight' that he probably would have gone along with it. Their chief concern was infosec, so they made sure as few people knew what the actual plan was as possible. In fact, they should've told Finn and Poe even less - then the stupid mutiny wouldn't have done the damage it did.
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Mar 26, 2018 03:52
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galagazombie posted:Fascist's blowing up solar systems with Superweapons and maintaining Empire sized fleets is totally not an important problem for the Resistance to solve? I mean the Western allies in WWII had some bad domestic problems to solve but The Nazi's weren't going to shoot themselves (Hitler excluded). I think TLJ is more about how the situation got to this point. The new Republic, for whatever reason, had just as much a problem with corruption and exploitation as the old one, there were still rich corrupt assholes with too much power and a number of them made it possible for a crazy cult leader to amass his own private army. Some of those corrupt assholes also sold stuff to the Resistance but that's not a big help right now. Can't beat the Devil at his own game.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:29
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Keeping in mind the New Republic also maintained an Empire sized fleet and, after they and their fleet are destroyed, the Resistance then turn their efforts toward finding a crazy cultist to lead them.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:39
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Ferrinus posted:Their chief concern was infosec, so they made sure as few people knew what the actual plan was as possible. In fact, they should've told Finn and Poe even less - then the stupid mutiny wouldn't have done the damage it did. Which still makes no real sense, since everyone on board the ship (including any possible spies) will also be destroyed.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:42
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Also strange that Rose figures out it's new technology within seconds of hearing about it, but no one else does.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:43
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Bleck posted:They were just chased through hyperspace, previously thought impossible - the logical conclusion is that they either have hitherto unrevealed technology enabling them to do so, or a spy. The possibility of the latter necessitates keeping tight-lipped about the plan. And she's concerned that the pilot who had just led a suicide charge against the first order dreadnaught to save hundreds or thousands of lives, who was directly responsible for destroying the first order's doomsday weapon is somehow not to be trusted with these secrets? Really? Plus, if their concern was that information was being spilled to the outside, maybe they might have considered confiscation of commlinks and the like? Poe was able to have a grand old chat that no one appears to have peeked in on, after all. I get not telling every rank and file member, but her refusal to tell Poe, of all people, is just silly.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:45
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Bleck posted:They were just chased through hyperspace, previously thought impossible - the logical conclusion is that they either have hitherto unrevealed technology enabling them to do so, or a spy. The possibility of the latter necessitates keeping tight-lipped about the plan. But Holdo does nothing to try and uncover a spy. So, if her plan had worked as she intended and there had been a spy, they could have just stooged the resistance off to the first order when they tried to sneak down to the planet. If Holdo seriously thought there was a spy, she had a duty to try to find this spy before the next stage of the escape or the entire diversion is pointless. We never see her do this. (The reason why we never see Holdo look for a mole is because the movie is trying to plant the idea that she's the mole, so her never looking is suspicious. Unfortunately when you think about it, it makes her just look stupid)
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Mar 26, 2018 04:46
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Ackbar wouldn't have botched this. Stupid human supremacists in the Resistance.
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Mar 26, 2018 04:51
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MonsieurChoc posted:Ackbar wouldn't have botched this. Stupid human supremacists in the Resistance. Pretty sure Ackbar would have been in charge if he hadn't been blow out a window to his death.
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Mar 26, 2018 05:06
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I think Akbar was killed explicitly because the plot wouldn't have "worked" with him in charge. The audience knows who Akbar is and knows he's on the level, so we would immediately know everything will work out and Poe would trust him. Thus they had to have Holdo emerge fully formed as from the head of Zeus in order to have a nobody the audience has no preconceptions about.
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Mar 26, 2018 07:56
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galagazombie posted:Fascist's blowing up solar systems with Superweapons and maintaining Empire sized fleets is totally not an important problem for the Resistance to solve? I mean the Western allies in WWII had some bad domestic problems to solve but The Nazi's weren't going to shoot themselves (Hitler excluded). 1) The First Order aren't fascists and 2) Fascists blowing up solar solar systems isn't an important problem, it's some Marvin the Martian nonsense like from the first movie. galagazombie posted:What I want to know is who ran Canto Bight exactly? They make it seem like the Republic ruled the galaxy until 2 minutes ago yet the planet is rife with slavery and openly sells weapons to the First Order. The Republic doesn't care about slavery. The leader of the freedom-loving Resistance owns a slave.
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Mar 26, 2018 08:12
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galagazombie posted:I think Akbar was killed explicitly because the plot wouldn't have "worked" with him in charge. The audience knows who Akbar is and knows he's on the level, so we would immediately know everything will work out and Poe would trust him. Thus they had to have Holdo emerge fully formed as from the head of Zeus in order to have a nobody the audience has no preconceptions about. Also his voice actor died shortly after TFA came out.
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Mar 26, 2018 08:25
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galagazombie posted:The audience knows who Akbar is this is an extremely generous idea you are right though that that subplot of the movie wouldn't work with anyone poe knows though, as the whole point is to be another iteration of the movie showing how a lack of communication or trust can make things fall apart
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Mar 26, 2018 08:26
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Brother Entropy posted:this is an extremely generous idea Never underestimate the power of memes though. Practically everyone born after 85 knows him from the internet.
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Mar 26, 2018 08:54
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ehhh, ackbar was a meme back in the pre-facebook days when only very online dipshits like us knew what memes were like, we're talking ytmnd-era here
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Mar 26, 2018 09:00
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:1) The First Order aren't fascists and 2) Fascists blowing up solar solar systems isn't an important problem, it's some Marvin the Martian nonsense like from the first movie. Legit curious how you end up at #1. The empire are designed to look and act like Nazis in space, with Vader as basically the leader of the space SS. The first order are the Nazis who fled to Argentina after the war, keeping all the same ideology and behavior.
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Mar 26, 2018 09:12
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Brother Entropy posted:ehhh, ackbar was a meme back in the pre-facebook days when only very online dipshits like us knew what memes were My 19 year old brother and all his friends love Ackbar. Ackbar is a character that people know dawg. Like he’s not Luke level, but he isn’t obscure.
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Mar 26, 2018 09:17
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Caros posted:Legit curious how you end up at #1. The empire are designed to look and act like Nazis in space, with Vader as basically the leader of the space SS. The first order are the Nazis who fled to Argentina after the war, keeping all the same ideology and behavior. The Empire aren't advocating expansive nationalism, Anti-Semitism, or racial supremacy. They're sci-fi military types who usurped a theocratic police force and an aristocratic assembly. That the First Order are "the Nazis who fled to Argentina" is non-sensical, because the Nazis who fled to Argentina did not establish an interstellar military state led by a wizard.
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Mar 26, 2018 09:28
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I feel like legit fascists get more excited about things. The anaemic brownsuits of the Empire strike me more as, I don't know, aristocratic? Vader, being devoted to the cause of eliminating the Jedi, is a good fit, but these bumbling career officers don't give two shits about the motherland or whatever. There's absolutely no, like, spirit of unity, which I think is pretty defining of fascism? Also their architecture would be better. I guess this sort of comes back to whether the Empire is racist again. It works if they're standing strong against the savage alien hordes, but as it stands I don't see it.
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Mar 26, 2018 09:29
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 News alert, you can buy more porgs now.
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Mar 26, 2018 09:33
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Shanty posted:I feel like legit fascists get more excited about things. The anaemic brownsuits of the Empire strike me more as, I don't know, aristocratic? Vader, being devoted to the cause of eliminating the Jedi, is a good fit, but these bumbling career officers don't give two shits about the motherland or whatever. There's absolutely no, like, spirit of unity, which I think is pretty defining of fascism? Also their architecture would be better. Surely that corresponds to the probably-fanciful stereotype of the German officer who was a nationalist authoritarian but not a true believer; a German patriot more than a fascist? You know, the image people have built up around Von Stauffenberg, Rommel, Speer et al. over the past 70 years (or, alternatively, Lee, Jackson, Longstreet et al. since 1865), that kind of thing.
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Mar 26, 2018 09:55
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Wheat Loaf posted:Surely that corresponds to the probably-fanciful stereotype of the German officer who was a nationalist authoritarian but not a true believer; a German patriot more than a fascist? You know, the image people have built up around Von Stauffenberg, Rommel, Speer et al. over the past 70 years (or, alternatively, Lee, Jackson, Longstreet et al. since 1865), that kind of thing. Right, but the Nazis also had a ton of true believers. In the absence of those can you really call the Empire fascist? Like, what does the Empire's propaganda look like? They don't have any! They're not even trying to win over the populace, they simply threaten them with death, which sounds a lot more like a feudal thing.
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Mar 26, 2018 10:20
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Shanty posted:Right, but the Nazis also had a ton of true believers. In the absence of those can you really call the Empire fascist? Like, what does the Empire's propaganda look like? They don't have any! They're not even trying to win over the populace, they simply threaten them with death, which sounds a lot more like a feudal thing. I remember it being a feature of the old EU but I suppose it isn't really all that important to the story in the movies.
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Mar 26, 2018 10:27
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Hux had that big rally in TFA. I mean, it was directed at his own soldiers, not the general citizenry, but it's not clear whether the First Order even has citizens or territory, so...
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Mar 26, 2018 10:36
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Angry Salami posted:Hux had that big rally in TFA. I mean, it was directed at his own soldiers, not the general citizenry, but it's not clear whether the First Order even has citizens or territory, so... They don't have citizens and FN's backstory sort of establishes that all the storm troopers have been brainwashed since childhood anyway, so it's doubly pointless. It's just a massive ego-stroke for Hux. It's the trappings of fascism applied to, I guess, feudal lordship? Again, it's sort of unclear what the New Order actually are, since their relationship with the rest of the galaxy is so obscure.
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Mar 26, 2018 11:05
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Empire aren't advocating expansive nationalism, Anti-Semitism, or racial supremacy. They're sci-fi military types who usurped a theocratic police force and an aristocratic assembly. Yeah it's real bad that the films use some kind of commonly assumed visual shorthand instead of giving us preparatory reading beforehand allowing us more chance to really nail that intellectual history of the Empire via a précis of their manifestos, major political events, political philosophy, propaganda etc etc. It's not like as if the Nazis are our society's basic metaphor for evil on the world-political stage or anything In fact please post more about this freak occurrence of an imperfect, broadly drawn metaphor in Star Wars
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Mar 26, 2018 13:40
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Any story with magic cannot possibly be an allegory because magic is not in fact a real thing that exists and furtherm,ore
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Mar 26, 2018 14:14
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J_RBG posted:Yeah it's real bad that the films use some kind of commonly assumed visual shorthand instead of giving us preparatory reading beforehand allowing us more chance to really nail that intellectual history of the Empire via a précis of their manifestos, major political events, political philosophy, propaganda etc etc. It's not like as if the Nazis are our society's basic metaphor for evil on the world-political stage or anything Parsing the irony out of this post: J_RBG posted:The Empire are fascists because they look like historical fascists from the real world. So I think you're misreading the post you're quoting as saying BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Empire aren't fascists, and Star Wars has nothing to do with fascism at all. Which I think is disingenuous. Lucas clearly is evoking real world fascism, but he's doing so by putting fascist iconography on a group which is not fascist in the diegesis. We can tell this from their actions. Imagine a medieval knight slaying a dragon with a Hitler moustache and big swastika on its chest. While it's clear what the dragon represents, it is not itself fascist. You're not meant to imagine that it writes manifestos in its cave or whatever else. Just like The Empire aren't fascists. You might also be saying J_RBG posted:The Empire are not fascists, but are equated with them in their role as "our society's basic metaphor for evil on the world-political stage" But then you're not disagreeing with lamps, so I don't understand the dripping sarcasm.
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Mar 26, 2018 14:41
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J_RBG posted:Yeah it's real bad that the films use some kind of commonly assumed visual shorthand instead of giving us preparatory reading beforehand allowing us more chance to really nail that intellectual history of the Empire via a précis of their manifestos, major political events, political philosophy, propaganda etc etc. It's not like as if the Nazis are our society's basic metaphor for evil on the world-political stage or anything The visual shorthand is that the Empire's soldiers wear uniforms, employ a fleet of battleships and carriers, and have a weapon capable of wiping out planets. The first two can apply to any navy, Nazi or otherwise, but given that the Death Star is short hand for the atomic bomb -- it ain't the Nazi's that the Empire is meant to stand in for.
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Mar 26, 2018 16:31
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J_RBG posted:Yeah it's real bad that the films use some kind of commonly assumed visual shorthand instead of giving us preparatory reading beforehand allowing us more chance to really nail that intellectual history of the Empire via a précis of their manifestos, major political events, political philosophy, propaganda etc etc. It's not like as if the Nazis are our society's basic metaphor for evil on the world-political stage or anything Your argument is that the Empire are Nazis because of "commonly assumed visual shorthand," when the movies very thoroughly show that the Empire are not Nazis. Nazism is based on expansionistic nationalism and violent racism, the Empire has no expansionism, no nation, and no race. Nazism is populistic, the Empire has no people, not even a name. Nazism syncreticizes traditions, the Empire has no traditions. The world of Star Wars is broken and hollow. The Empire is a spectre of a spectre. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Mar 26, 2018 |
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Mar 26, 2018 16:45
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You should write to George Lucas and complain.
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Mar 26, 2018 16:47
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Shanty posted:Imagine a medieval knight slaying a dragon with a Hitler moustache and big swastika on its chest. While it's clear what the dragon represents, it is not itself fascist. You're not meant to imagine that it writes manifestos in its cave or whatever else. Just like The Empire aren't fascists. But the way metaphor works is by drawing an imagined equivalence between two things that aren't literally the same thing. That's the point of it. So pointing out that metaphors don't work on a literal level is a tautology. The only response to saying 'they're not technically the same though!!!' is literally 'so what? you didn't think we knew that jackass?' Also might I remind you that in order to establish this groundbreaking observation he claims the First Order aren't fascists. You know the ones who held a Nazi rally on their big weapon-planet, where Hux shouted about the Republic who "acquiesce to dis-or-derrr", there was a deliberate use of Nazi colour schemes, and then the Stormtroopers did a salute with one arm raised. Lamps' posting on this subject is of a piece with other complaints in this thread that things aren't 'explained': it's a desire for the hyperliteral, a flattening of the discursive plain. The death of all interpretative work. Like just look at this post: BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Empire aren't advocating expansive nationalism, Anti-Semitism, or racial supremacy. They're sci-fi military types who usurped a theocratic police force and an aristocratic assembly. This guy genuinely believes that people are entering this conversation completely unable to come up with these thoughts, and that he has to spell it out.
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Mar 26, 2018 16:56
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