Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

«‹›1216 »

Ardent Communist: Oct 17, 2010; ALLAH! MU'AMMAR! LIBYA WA BAS!

PittTheElder posted:

Can you please explain which revolutions and attempted revolutions you're even talking about? We were talking about this a while ago, and I think the takeaway is that there was no inflection point.

Well it seems like the early modern era ends with the French Revolution, so that's a good definite point to mention. Obviously after this there is a revolutionary wave. But there are earlier attempts where people are gradually implementing them, such as the mentioned Hussite Wars, American revolution, Pugachev's Rebellion, Jacobite risings.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 02:15

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 10, 2024 14:49

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

HEY GUNS posted:

this is like someone described the middle ages to you at the end of a game of Telephone

Ask Us About Military History Mk. III: this is like someone described the middle ages to you at the end of a game of Telephone

# ? Mar 27, 2018 02:38

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

HEY GUNS posted:

The logical endpoint is these motherfuckers These are for hauling heavy farm or logging equipment, and for being happy and nice :
https://i.imgur.com/iIQdtht.mp4

Did they breed them happy and nice after finding out what happens if you have a horse that size that isn't a sweetheart? Or is it a natural consequence of being bigger than any possible predator and not needing fear?

# ? Mar 27, 2018 02:47

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

Ardent Communist posted:

Well it seems like the early modern era ends with the French Revolution, so that's a good definite point to mention. Obviously after this there is a revolutionary wave. But there are earlier attempts where people are gradually implementing them, such as the mentioned Hussite Wars, American revolution, Pugachev's Rebellion, Jacobite risings.

So you're talking about events which took place in the very late 17th through the 18th century and then throwing in the Hussite Wars? Those are separated by centuries and don't take place in anywhere near the same context. Also, what kind of criteria are you using here for "revolution?" You know that the purpose of the Jacobite wars was to put the Stuart dynasty back on the throne, right? They didn't give a gently caress about "progress" or whatever dumb criteria you've decided to invent today, they would have ruled pretty much the same as any contemporary aristocrats.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 02:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

The Lone Badger posted:

Did they breed them happy and nice after finding out what happens if you have a horse that size that isn't a sweetheart?

if you breed something for size, you also breed them for temperament. Unusually large breeds of housecat are also very nice.

just look at her though! if she wanted to, she could gently caress that guy up

# ? Mar 27, 2018 02:51

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

HEY GUNS posted:

if you breed something for size, you also breed them for temperament. Unusually large breeds of housecat are also very nice.

just look at her though! if she wanted to, she could gently caress that guy up

Nature bread Grizzly bears to be big and ornery and situationallly can have their entire brain fuse in MAX AGGRESSION

And because of that, bear cavalry can never be a thing, so it is a good rule

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:01

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

ColonelDimak posted:

Thanks to everyone who recommended Death of Stalin, it was hilarious.

yes I watched this because of zukhov gifs ITT and it did not disappoint

e: however I regret to report that it contains bourgeois propaganda w/r/t stalinism being bad

Jeb Bush 2012 fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Mar 27, 2018

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:01

Ardent Communist: Oct 17, 2010; ALLAH! MU'AMMAR! LIBYA WA BAS!

Grenrow posted:

So you're talking about events which took place in the very late 17th through the 18th century and then throwing in the Hussite Wars? Those are separated by centuries and don't take place in anywhere near the same context. Also, what kind of criteria are you using here for "revolution?" You know that the purpose of the Jacobite wars was to put the Stuart dynasty back on the throne, right? They didn't give a gently caress about "progress" or whatever dumb criteria you've decided to invent today, they would have ruled pretty much the same as any contemporary aristocrats.

I'm using it in the basis of political change coming that is more widespread than merely a palace coup, supported by nascent feelings of nationalism or religious feelings. I mentioned the Jacobites because their support came from the Highland Scots, who favoured infantry tactics.
It's not like at any point I said "once infantry superseded cavalry, revolution went from total failure to total success". It seems like half the people here are trying to create this strawman where I'm trying to say that there was a definitive break in military tactics and an immediate corresponding change in revolutionary success. I never said that. All of these things came slowly, until something like the French revolution occurs which combines all of the changes and drastically changes things.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:17

Rocko Bonaparte: Mar 12, 2002; Every day is Friday!

Nebakenezzer posted:

Nature bread Grizzly bears to be big and ornery and situationallly can have their entire brain fuse in MAX AGGRESSION

And because of that, bear cavalry can never be a thing, so it is a good rule

Yes but they can serve in the artillery.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:23

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

Does anyone have that gif that's basically "1000 ways to die in a tank".

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:50

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

Ardent Communist posted:

I'm using it in the basis of political change coming that is more widespread than merely a palace coup, supported by nascent feelings of nationalism or religious feelings. I mentioned the Jacobites because their support came from the Highland Scots, who favoured infantry tactics.

In contrast to their opponents, the 18th century English army, famously overreliant on cavalry? Although the majority of both forces was infantry, the two sides at Culloden had cavalry (albeit lovely compared to cavalry forces elsewhere in the world), because unlike you, people who actually fought in the era understood the utility of combined arms and weren't busy coming up with dumbshit theories about the inherently reactionary nature of the cavalry. The rest of your poo poo is too dumb to even address. You are like the dude in everyone's freshman philosophy class going on about how everything is just like, chemicals bro.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:53

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Nebakenezzer posted:

Nature bread Grizzly bears to be big and ornery and situationallly can have their entire brain fuse in MAX AGGRESSION

And because of that, bear cavalry can never be a thing, so it is a good rule

now i want to see a horse versus a bear

some 16th century english person probably arranged this

# ? Mar 27, 2018 03:55

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Ardent Communist posted:

It seems like half the people here are trying to create this strawman where I'm trying to say that there was a definitive break in military tactics and an immediate corresponding change in revolutionary success. I never said that. All of these things came slowly, until something like the French revolution occurs which combines all of the changes and drastically changes things.

No we're trying to point out that your argument is nonsense and not grounded in any facts beyond your gut feeling. In order to prove your original thesis that revolutions became more successful at some undefined point due to effective infantry tactics or whatever, you should probably start by at least defining what periods you're talking about, and then tallying up both successful and unsuccessful military insurrections and whether or not they count as revolutionary for whatever reason.

Like your original idea seems to be that cheaper military action makes revolution by the impoverished more feasible, but it makes it equally easier for the ruling class to buy military service from others.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:04

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Ardent Communist posted:

Pugachev's Rebellion

Pugachev's Rebellion, a revolutionary movement led by the notoriously free-spirited infantry culture, the Cossacks.

Ardent Communist posted:

I mentioned the Jacobites because their support came from the Highland Scots, who favoured infantry tactics.

This is definitely because the rise of firearms led to increasing use of infantry to overcome noble cavalry, and not because Highlanders live in the highlands, which are mountainous and not good horse country. Also schiltron? What schiltron?

Also you say this all culminates in the French Revolution, but again, the Revolution was not won by hordes of French peasants shooting down aristocratic cavalry charges, it was largely effected by politicians and mob riots in the capital city of Paris in the highly centralized French state. And if you think mob rioting having an effect on politics was only possible due to firearms, the Blues and the Greens and the plebs of old Rome would like to have a word with you.

Ardent Communist posted:

It seems like half the people here are trying to create this strawman where I'm trying to say that there was a definitive break in military tactics and an immediate corresponding change in revolutionary success. I never said that.

Ardent Communist posted:

I mean, this is kind of what I was talking about when I referenced earlier how once infantry could effectively stand against armoured cavalry, that social change was possible once a change in tactics and armament (in this case guns and flails and the use of wagon-forts) made the warfare that the upper classes favoured obsolete.

Feel free to keep backpedaling and explaining and reexplaining what you REALLY meant until you get to the point where what you're really saying is that you're not saying anything at all, though. You're almost there already. Alternatively you could try restating your thesis as clearly as you can without any of the defensive, self-pitying "Oh woe nobody understands me" bullshit and see how well it stands up to scrutiny, and if it gets ripped to shreds maybe the response should be "I should have a rethink about how strong this thesis actually is, and perhaps explore other, potentially more important reasons for the increase in revolutionary success."

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:07

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Grenrow posted:

In contrast to their opponents, the 18th century English army, famously overreliant on cavalry? Although the majority of both forces was infantry, the two sides at Culloden had cavalry (albeit lovely compared to cavalry forces elsewhere in the world)

Bad Cav Island is sadly real :saddowns:

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:11

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Fox Hunting>Cavalry tactics sadly.

Just stop and imagine the hilarious scenes of Bourbon cavalry trying to ride down Revolutionaries in Medieval pre-Napoleon Paris.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:11

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

HEY GUNS posted:

Bad Cav Island is sadly real

My favorite Bad Cav Island stuff is from the 19th century when cavalry officers in India try to figure out why they are so Bad at Cav, and their theories end up looking like one of those conspiracy theory boards with the red yarn and letters cut from magazines. UNIFORMS?? INDIAN STEEL -> WILKINSON SWORD??? SMALL HANDS. BIG HANDS? MUST INVESTIGATE FURTHER.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:17

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

HEY GUNS posted:

now i want to see a horse versus a bear

some 16th century english person probably arranged this

I think it depends on the terrain, and what bear

Thanks to SA threads many years ago about "could six unarmed humans beat a bear in a fight" [TL;DR, holy poo poo, no] and a thread in TFR on defending yourself against wild animals (turns out a handgun likely turns a close encounter into a lethal attack) I feel qualified, even giddy, to answer this

In a bear pit, I think the bear takes it unless the hose manages to headshot the bear with a strong rear leg kick right away

On open terrain, the horse likely has better endurance than the bear

In a forest, the bear can run as fast as the horse and can just crash through trees underbrush, its thick hide giving no fucks

Bears are also strong. Even black bears, which are smaller and not known for aggression toward humans, have been observed casually moving 800 kg rocks with one paw to look for grubs. Yer brown bears have been observed hauling steer carcasses up mountain sides, so the carcass weighs something like 2 tons and they are not stressed hauling it up a steep slope for thousands of feet

Panda bears could take a pony, I think, they are ambush predators, usually liking to drop from bamboo groves onto passing asses/ponies

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:24

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

what if the horse is trained for war

also, panda bears can hardly gently caress on their own, they're not going to do well in a street fight, be realistic here

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:25

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Grenrow posted:

My favorite Bad Cav Island stuff is from the 19th century when cavalry officers in India try to figure out why they are so Bad at Cav, and their theories end up looking like one of those conspiracy theory boards with the red yarn and letters cut from magazines. UNIFORMS?? INDIAN STEEL -> WILKINSON SWORD??? SMALL HANDS. BIG HANDS? MUST INVESTIGATE FURTHER.

When it came to that branch, the loss of a horse was a lot more devastating than a trooper. It gets super sad on the tail end of the 19th century when they get their poo poo together enough but they are two centuries late to the party.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:28

Monocled Falcon: Oct 30, 2011

This is all very entertaining, but I'm really interested in the fact that Cavalry wasn't dominated by aristocrats.

Was it not at least partically true for early middle ages that heavily armored cavalry were the decisive unit of battle and that the collapse of the organized state meant that only wealthy and therefore noble men could afford to equip themselves as such?
Isn't that how the lowest rank of Roman nobility got their name.

I can see why it wouldn't need to hold true across all of history, but it's surprising.

What role did nobility play in society if not fighting in expensive gear that commoners couldn't do?

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:37

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Monocled Falcon posted:

This is all very entertaining, but I'm really interested in the fact that Cavalry wasn't dominated by aristocrats.

Was it not at least partically true for early middle ages that heavily armored cavalry were the decisive unit of battle and that the collapse of the organized state meant that only wealthy and therefore noble men could afford to equip themselves as such?
Isn't that how the lowest rank of Roman nobility got their name.

I can see why it wouldn't need to hold true across all of history, but it's surprising.

What role did nobility play in society if not fighting in expensive gear that commoners couldn't do?

i am talking about the 17th century, not earlier or later. specifically the early 17th c, which is the only period i've done firsthand research in

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:39

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

HEY GUNS posted:

so, the tiny flags that the dudes in back are holding are called banderoles, and they've been a thing since the middle ages

the more i have studied milhist the more i have begun to think that beneath the ephemera of ideology and allegiance and wins and losses, armies are tremendously conservative

I wonder when they started to replace the Roman style Draco windsocks with the tiny flags? They hung around a long time:

Dacian on Roman relief holding a windsock. They probably originated somewhere on the steppe, and became ubiquitous in the Roman military subsequent to the Dacian campaigns.

On this section of the Bayeux tapestry we see a similar draco style windsock. The random unreliable webpage I pulled this image from suggests Dracos were associated with English Kings at this time, with this example specifically named the �Dragon of Wessex� (heoru-cumbul). It also suggests they had fallen out of fashion after the fall of Rome in France, but were brought back by the Carolingians as part of their "we're totally the Roman Empire guys, for serious" shtick.

ninth century Frankish illustration.

The latest illustration of a Draco windsock I could find was a fourteenth century panel from a collection of King Arthur stories. It was a specific reference to Arthur Pendragon's banner so I think it represents a conscious throwback to an old British tradition of Kingly symbols that was still remembered in by medieval writers and illustrators.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:40

C.M. Kruger: Oct 28, 2013

HEY GUNS posted:

what if the horse is trained for war

also, panda bears can hardly gently caress on their own, they're not going to do well in a street fight, be realistic here

Or what if it's a Scandinavian pit-fighting horse?

El Estrago Bonito posted:

Yeah they weren't probably unheard of but they would have been extremely rare. The weapons thing isn't a good indicator like actual damage to a person's bones are though. Rich people were usually buried with the trappings of battle and wealth regardless of their profession. So if you were a rich farmer, regardless of your gender or age, you'd probably be buried with nice clothes and lots of weapons. Sacrifice in Norse culture was usually an expression of wealth (both literal and metaphorical sacrifice). When Norse leaders gathered on a yearly basis the richest men would compete in the most noble of Viking sports: Horse Fighting!

You see, horses were really expensive, so if you were hot poo poo you put your really cool horse in a small pit with another guys really cool horse and then watched them trample each other to death. The guy who's horse died last (because they assuredly both died) won fame and sometimes money from gambling! And yes, if you know where to look you can still find the remains of horse fighting pits since the fields where the ancient Norse held their things are still mostly around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_horse

quote:

Icelanders also arranged for bloody fights between stallions; these were used for entertainment and to pick the best animals for breeding, and they were described in both literature and official records from the Commonwealth period of 930 to 1262 AD.[2] Stallion fights were an important part of Icelandic culture, and brawls, both physical and verbal, among the spectators were common. The conflicts at the horse fights gave rivals a chance to improve their political and social standing at the expense of their enemies and had wide social and political repercussions, sometimes leading to the restructuring of political alliances. However, not all human fights were serious, and the events provided a stage for friends and even enemies to battle without the possibility of major consequences. Courting between young men and women was also common at horse fights.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:45

Grand Prize Winner: Feb 19, 2007

Nebakenezzer posted:

Nature bread Grizzly bears to be big and ornery and situationallly can have their entire brain fuse in MAX AGGRESSION

And because of that, bear cavalry can never be a thing, so it is a good rule

If the Russians domesticated foxes they could do it to bears, too. Just breed for domestication for 10-20 generations, then start breeding for size and temperament. We could have bear cav by the time the icecaps completely melt or thereabouts.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

hahaha they're loving tiny this owns

# ? Mar 27, 2018 04:48

C.M. Kruger: Oct 28, 2013

HEY GUNS posted:

hahaha they're loving tiny this owns

Japanese horses are even shorter, the samurai and his mighty steed:

# ? Mar 27, 2018 05:04

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Monocled Falcon posted:

This is all very entertaining, but I'm really interested in the fact that Cavalry wasn't dominated by aristocrats.

Was it not at least partically true for early middle ages that heavily armored cavalry were the decisive unit of battle and that the collapse of the organized state meant that only wealthy and therefore noble men could afford to equip themselves as such?
Isn't that how the lowest rank of Roman nobility got their name.

I can see why it wouldn't need to hold true across all of history, but it's surprising.

What role did nobility play in society if not fighting in expensive gear that commoners couldn't do?

Well, they played a lot of different roles because there were a lot of different kinds of nobles in society. Professional soldiering was one thing the dirt poor nobles often ended up doing. Typically if they had money they didn't really have to do the fighting themselves, they could gear up their buddies to do it for them.

Heirarchies within heirarchies.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 05:25

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

Nebakenezzer posted:

Panda bears could take a pony, I think, they are ambush predators, usually liking to drop from bamboo groves onto passing asses/ponies

# ? Mar 27, 2018 05:45

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

HEY GUNS posted:

Bad Cav Island is sadly real

Hey! Bad Cav Island had really good horses! Just...not good cavalrymen.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 08:56

Mr Enderby: Mar 28, 2015

MikeCrotch posted:

Hey! Bad Cav Island had really good horses! Just...not good cavalrymen.

Can someone write an effortpost about this bad cav island thing? I get the many reasons why Early Modern England didn't know how to war in general but why did the cavalry lag behind the infantry?

# ? Mar 27, 2018 09:50

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

Say, question: How did the major armies of WW2 handle breaks for frontline units? I assume taking weekends off wasn't exactly an option - did they just rotate the entire frontline unit off after two weeks or a month or three months on the frontline, or rotate individual soldiers back to the rear so they got a day off a week or two or something?

I'm aware the different countries probably had different methods, would be interested to hear about the differences.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 12:14

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Tomn posted:

Say, question: How did the major armies of WW2 handle breaks for frontline units? I assume taking weekends off wasn't exactly an option - did they just rotate the entire frontline unit off after two weeks or a month or three months on the frontline, or rotate individual soldiers back to the rear so they got a day off a week or two or something?

I'm aware the different countries probably had different methods, would be interested to hear about the differences.

The Soviets tried to rotate entire divisions where possible. See e.g. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...otation&f=false

# ? Mar 27, 2018 12:25

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

gently caress wrong war

# ? Mar 27, 2018 12:26

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Tomn posted:

Say, question: How did the major armies of WW2 handle breaks for frontline units? I assume taking weekends off wasn't exactly an option - did they just rotate the entire frontline unit off after two weeks or a month or three months on the frontline, or rotate individual soldiers back to the rear so they got a day off a week or two or something?

I'm aware the different countries probably had different methods, would be interested to hear about the differences.

It was a multifaceted approach- at lower levels, units would be pulled off the front line for refit and training. Also, individuals would be granted leave periodically, and one of the disciplinary measures in the US army was denial of such leave.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 12:28

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I just re-read Ivan's War, and the soviets did.. not handle it great.

While Russia used to have some of the foremost experts on combat trauma, the ideological bullshit brigade in charge later on decided that the only reason a soldier might not want to fight was lacking moral fibre or not enough communist fervour. Draconian penalties (usually death) for cowardice were meted out before someone bothered to check if symptoms were voluntary.

The few psychological casualties that did get recognized were treated in varying fashion. Most got light duty or rest until they were deemed fit, after which they died in the field, some were (I poo poo you not) waterboarded, and others yet were committed and "submerged under drugs", which sounds really terrible.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 12:34

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Mr Enderby posted:

We don't need to figure it out, because the regiments elected agitators to communicate their views, and published pamphlets, and had debates, and generally did cool ECW poo poo.

Specifically, your go-to search term for this stuff is the Putney Debates. Calling for universal male suffrage in the 1640s was pretty radical by the standards of the time!

# ? Mar 27, 2018 12:41

aphid_licker: Jan 7, 2009

HEY GUNS posted:

what if the horse is trained for war

also, panda bears can hardly gently caress on their own, they're not going to do well in a street fight, be realistic here

The Panda is a fighter, not a lover, duh

# ? Mar 27, 2018 13:09

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Mr Enderby posted:

Can someone write an effortpost about this bad cav island thing? I get the many reasons why Early Modern England didn't know how to war in general but why did the cavalry lag behind the infantry?

I've always assumed is is because aside from the on and off slap again fight with the French and bullying Celtic people/Native people of the New World the English and UK never really got the martial experience, money and time spent to perfect conflict like the big boys in mainland Europe. The Wars with the Spanish and Dutch of the 16th and 17th century seem to be long Navy focused slap fights/feuds over sea.

That is fine though we got boats.

Wait no.

# ? Mar 27, 2018 14:05

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 10, 2024 14:49

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

Gort posted:

gently caress wrong war

Ask Us About Military History: gently caress wrong war

# ? Mar 27, 2018 14:29

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

«‹›1216 »