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So if you made 25k as a FTE, that's roughly equivalent to $50/hr. It's up to you what you base your rates on I guess. Personally I value my evenings and weekends pretty highly, so I'd want AT LEAST what I'm making at my day job to make it worth it unless it was something I really enjoyed or I really needed the extra. E: My numbers should be cut in half. ImpactVector fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 15:26
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ImpactVector posted:I can't answer any specifics about independent contracting, but I think the general rule of thumb is you take your yearly salary and multiply by .002 and that's your target hourly rate. That is a good perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way. To keep it simple, if I make 50k salary, a rate of $100/hr wouldn't be unreasonable? My first reaction is, 'no way they will go for that', but you are right. It weekends and evenings, they have no overhead or benefits to pay out. My mindset is completely stuck in the full time employee mode.
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Mar 22, 2018 16:00
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ImpactVector posted:I can't answer any specifics about independent contracting, but I think the general rule of thumb is you take your yearly salary and multiply by .002 and that's your target hourly rate. Deegan posted:That is a good perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way. To keep it simple, if I make 50k salary, a rate of $100/hr wouldn't be unreasonable? My first reaction is, 'no way they will go for that', but you are right. It weekends and evenings, they have no overhead or benefits to pay out. My mindset is completely stuck in the full time employee mode.
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Mar 22, 2018 16:06
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Yeah $100/hour is a lot to ask but I would definitely expect at least $50/hour based on what you've posted.
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Mar 22, 2018 16:14
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Yeah, $100/hr would be a big ask for work in a field/position where you were making $25/hr as a FTE. But that might mean it's just not worth your time anymore. ImpactVector fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 16:27
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Deegan posted:I'm not sure this is the correct thread for this question so point me in the right direction if it isn't. I'd say you should base your rate on what's worth your time, frankly. Generally speaking, you want to be charging ~100% more than your hourly rate when you were salary - functionally, this covers your overhead, benefits, administrative time, etc. But there's also a question of what's worth your team. If you're giving up your nights and weekends (and they're asking you to do that), I'd charge a higher premium because it's functionally overtime. Probably another 20% or so. In your shoes, I'd likely ask for ~$75-100 per hour. Remember; if they were to hire someone, because of benefits/space/etc, that essentially doubles their cost relative to salary On the other hand, if you really want to also work nights and weekends, you can price yourself lower. ^^ he wasn't making $25k, he was making the equivalent of $25 per hour, or ~$50k.
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Mar 22, 2018 16:27
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Zauper posted:
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Mar 22, 2018 16:31
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Zauper posted:I'd say you should base your rate on what's worth your time, frankly. Thank you guys for all the input. I'm starting to feel comfortable in the $75-85/hour range. It is so informative to hear other people's perspectives. Deegan fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Mar 22, 2018 |
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Mar 22, 2018 16:43
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Shoot. You guys are right, I was mathing wrong and getting my numbers mixed up. It's .001 as the multiplier equivalent yearly salary to independent hourly rate. So you should ask for $50/hr if you want to make it worth your time compared to your $50k salary. I might honestly go a little higher since this is effectively overtime for you, but that's just me as someone who doesn't really want to work extra.
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Mar 22, 2018 16:52
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I like the idea of asking for $100/hour, but my nights and weekends aren't generally for sale.
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Mar 22, 2018 18:01
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I don't think that you should try to anchor to your current salary at all. You are exchanging your free time to do this work. What is the number that you would say "gently caress yeah let's go" if this project were proposed to you? Ask for that number. If its a hundred bucks an hour, ask for a hundred bucks an hour. If the company says no, who gives a gently caress? This advice does not apply if you are trying to break in to a freelance consulting gig - or maybe it applies extra. Our subcontractors and independents make anywhere between $70 and $300/hr depending on skills expertise and need.
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Mar 22, 2018 19:34
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Looking for some feedback on my situation. I'm currently working remotely at a tiny startup struggling to find a business model. I'm head of engineering and have a ton of freedom and responsibility. However I really dislike my boss (CEO) and have near zero faith in the product/company direction. So I've been job hunting. I have a verbal offer from another startup with an upward trajectory that puts my current company to shame. They just raised a significant Series A funding and are planning to double the engineering team by the end of the year. I'm still waiting on the full benefits package, but I'm pretty sure it's at least equal to my current job and likely much better. It would be a downgrade in title and who I report to, but roughly equivalent responsibilities. The biggest downside is that I would go from fully remote to commuting 45 minutes to an office and only working remotely once a week at most. I don't have a car, so the costs alone are probably $10-15K (car, insurance, fuel, clothes, lunch); not to mention the stress, lost time, etc. Here's the basics of the offer: - $140K (+5K above my current salary, but they don't know this) - 1,000 options currently valued at $6/share - occassional WFH / flexible hours - full health benefits - I think they have 401K matching -- still waiting for details I'm thinking about asking for $170K and accepting anything above $160K. If they won't go above $160K, I'll counter asking for a signing bonus. If the highest I can get is ~$150K, I'm going to ask my current employer for a raise with this offer as my BATNA. I don't want to stay at my current job for much longer, but I don't want to sign up for a daily commute without a large increase in compensation. I know from an initial conversation with the recruiter that they do have employees making more than $170K. For my title and location, $170K would definitely be at the top of the range, but ultimately it's only $30K/22% more, so it doesn't feel like an insulting or unrealistic ask. Thoughts?
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Mar 24, 2018 17:02
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I'd say you should ask for both more money, and if you are running the engineering team, definitely more options. Probably half a percent or so?
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Mar 24, 2018 18:22
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sim posted:I know from an initial conversation with the recruiter that they do have employees making more than $170K. For my title and location, $170K would definitely be at the top of the range, but ultimately it's only $30K/22% more, so it doesn't feel like an insulting or unrealistic ask. Thoughts?
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Mar 24, 2018 21:12
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Also you can put a price on working remote. $170k, but you can budge down for every additional day a week they'll let you work remote.
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Mar 26, 2018 16:55
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Thanks for the feedback! They already have an unlimited vacation policy. I could ask for more/faster options, but I would prefer cash as I generally treat startup stock as worthless. The CTO already mentioned that he's willing to try allowing me to work remotely about once a week. They have a couple other people that are full time remote and everyone works remotely on occasion. So I don't want to offer that as a bargaining chip if I can get it for "free". Here's what I'm planning to send:quote:Thank you for taking the time to put together this offer! I'm really excited about the vision for the company as outlined by [REDACTED]. I can bring a lot of value by leading front end development and helping scale the team. I think taking some leadership responsibility off of [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] plates will accelerate the growth of the company. Much of this was cribbed from https://medium.freecodecamp.org/ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer-ee17cccbdab6 and of course this thread.
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Mar 26, 2018 22:24
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sim posted:Thanks for the feedback! They already have an unlimited vacation policy. I could ask for more/faster options, but I would prefer cash as I generally treat startup stock as worthless. The CTO already mentioned that he's willing to try allowing me to work remotely about once a week. They have a couple other people that are full time remote and everyone works remotely on occasion. So I don't want to offer that as a bargaining chip if I can get it for "free". Here's what I'm planning to send: I mean, you're not wrong in that you need to be making an appropriate amount of cash for any job. However, because of the risk involved in startups you should not only be making comparable (or more) money, you should also be receiving significant options. You should get both, it's not an either/or situation. It looks like equity in a startup for an engineering manager is around or at least half a percent, and $160k+. There is no reason why you shouldn't be getting both. The options are worthless if the company goes splat, but have significant upside if the company is successful. The point here is that if you're being hired on at a top level position, you should have significant influence in the success of the company, and the compensation should reflect that -- you should have access to that upside. In order for your options to replace 1 year of salary, with the current setup, you'd need the value of the company to go up by about 26x (and a liquidity event). You want the upside to be better than that for you. At a bare minimum, you should be walking into the discussion with an understanding of: how much of the outstanding equity does your 1,000 options represent? What is the exercise price for those options?
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Mar 27, 2018 13:50
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I think they should be valued at approximately 0, same as I'd value a pile of lottery tickets. Certainly the median startup option is worthless, and I bet the 75% one is too. Don't waste your time negotiating for more options - spend your negotiating leverage on getting more salary out of them. (Every startup hiring manager will try to get you to do this in lieu of salary and say things like "don't you believe in the vision of IronForks???" and you should steel yourself for it.)
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Mar 27, 2018 15:28
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I think they should be valued at approximately 0, same as I'd value a pile of lottery tickets. Certainly the median startup option is worthless, and I bet the 75% one is too. Don't waste your time negotiating for more options - spend your negotiating leverage on getting more salary out of them. (Every startup hiring manager will try to get you to do this in lieu of salary and say things like "don't you believe in the vision of IronForks???" and you should steel yourself for it.) I wouldn't value them highly, but not valuing equity is a mistake. You can't retire by asking for another $5k a year. You can do them as separate discussions, but you want both.
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Mar 27, 2018 16:14
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Zauper posted:I wouldn't value them highly, but not valuing equity is a mistake. You can't retire by asking for another $5k a year. Significant equity(not options) is valuable at a publicly traded company, or a large enough non-public one that there's private demand for it. Retiring on startup options is like retiring on lottery tickets. 5k/year is 5k/year for life, assuming you use (the knowledge of) your increased salary in your next round of negotiating. Valuing startup options as anything more than lottery tickets requires overdosing on company koolaid - the vast vast majority of them are never worth anything. Like if your only choice is a fat stack of lottery tickets, or 5k/year, you're correct that the lottery tickets are the only one of the two that might get you enough money to retire, but that doesn't mean they're the right choice.
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Mar 27, 2018 16:37
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So, I just got a (somewhat of a surprise) phone call about an in-person interview that is now scheduled for this Friday. I say "somewhat of a surprise" because it was something I kind of threw an application at and didn't make any effort to include a cover letter or anything else because I thought I might have been underqualified. Turns out I'm not after re-reading the description. However, the HR person setting up the interview refused to schedule it without me giving them a salary for my last full-time job. I tried saying I was contracted not to tell her, asked if she could put "1" or "negotiable" in the field, all that stuff. She claimed that it was to make sure I didn't want way more than the position payed, which based on what I've read about the company, might actually be the truth since they're a smaller bank and apparently people applying there think they'll get big bank salaries. I ended up telling her a salary, but it was a non-specific number that I currently make in my contract position instead of my last job- my supervisor from that job knows that I did this and doesn't care, so they'll never find out I upped it by like 10k if they call her for my reference and they have no way of finding out otherwise because that company literally doesn't exist anymore. I know that this is listed as a "walk away 95% of the time" scenario on the thread intro, but I think I may fall into the 5% end on this. I currently only get (lovely) health insurance and 5 days of PTO per year at my contract position. The position I'm interviewing for provides full benefits (all insurance, 401k matching, more PTO, volunteer days, more holidays), so I'd actually accept the same salary if I had to, although I do plan on negotiating upward if I get an offer. So my main question here: does this mean they're going to be an awful place to work for? I'm going to do the interview either way, because, hey- practice, but I kind of want to have a game plan before that. I also realize that I may not even be offered a job here, so it may not matter at all. I have a few other interviews in progress, so I could always use this to accelerate those processes if I did get an offer and it didn't seem terrible.
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Mar 27, 2018 17:26
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There can be other interviews. There are other companies. You don't need to settle.
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Mar 27, 2018 17:37
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m0therfux0r posted:So my main question here: does this mean they're going to be an awful place to work for? I'm going to do the interview either way, because, hey- practice, but I kind of want to have a game plan before that. I also realize that I may not even be offered a job here, so it may not matter at all. I have a few other interviews in progress, so I could always use this to accelerate those processes if I did get an offer and it didn't seem terrible. The signal that you're getting from them is that they demanded you give them leverage over you before they'd even consider talking to you. My intuition is that they're not going to be a great place to work for. If your current environment is poo poo, they might be a stepping stone out of it. But I wouldn't have high hopes.
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Mar 27, 2018 17:43
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fantastic in plastic posted:If your current environment is poo poo, they might be a stepping stone out of it. But I wouldn't have high hopes. This was basically my plan. I hate my current job so much that I'd work almost anywhere else for the same amount of money as a stepping stone just so I can get out of here while I continue to apply other places, but I wanted some input from here. Plus, the contract I'm currently in will likely end in the middle of summer so I'd rather have a not-great job while I'm looking instead of being unemployed. If I wasn't so desperate to get out of here I almost certainly would have walked away from that phone interview. You guys are telling me about what I was expecting myself- just wanted to make sure I wasn't totally off base. Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst!
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Mar 27, 2018 17:58
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Significant equity(not options) is valuable at a publicly traded company, or a large enough non-public one that there's private demand for it. Retiring on startup options is like retiring on lottery tickets. 5k/year is 5k/year for life, assuming you use (the knowledge of) your increased salary in your next round of negotiating. Valuing startup options as anything more than lottery tickets requires overdosing on company koolaid - the vast vast majority of them are never worth anything. Look; it's not an either or. You should be fairly paid in terms of salary for your work. Also, by virtue of working at a startup, you should receive a fair amount of equity/options. The point I made earlier? Comp for his title, roughly, should be what he's asking for in $ AND 0.5% of the company in options. Ignoring the options just because they aren't guaranteed is silly -- options are a real way to generate wealth if you are able to enable success in your role, and he's not being hired as a grunt. Think about this from the other side for a second -- most investors would rather pay you more salary and not dilute themselves. They're post series-A, they have investment capital. Investors don't prefer to hoard the equity because it's better for them if you have more equity and less salary. Yes, there's more risk for you than them (because you only have one company you work for while they can be invested in several at a time), but it's functionally the same logic - the upside is far higher. Even if it were a tradeoff... he's not being paid $50k where $5k is a significant change to living conditions, either. His base is already $150+, well over where additional salary usually returns satisfaction/happiness. Otherwise; agree to disagree.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:03
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m0therfux0r posted:
Nope. Walk away. You do not want to work for that company. It won't be any better than your current situation and it may well be even worse.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:56
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Zauper posted:Look; it's not an either or. You should be fairly paid in terms of salary for your work. Also, by virtue of working at a startup, you should receive a fair amount of equity/options.
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Mar 27, 2018 22:06
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m0therfux0r posted:However, the HR person setting up the interview refused to schedule it without me giving them a salary for my last full-time job. I tried saying I was contracted not to tell her, asked if she could put "1" or "negotiable" in the field, all that stuff. She claimed that it was to make sure I didn't want way more than the position payed, The confrontational though satisfying tactic if they staunchly refuse to play is to tell them to go first. If they're afraid you'll fall outside the range, let them name the number and you'll decide.
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Mar 27, 2018 22:39
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Namarrgon posted:The confrontational though satisfying tactic if they staunchly refuse to play is to tell them to go first. If they're afraid you'll fall outside the range, let them name the number and you'll decide. I tried that too and it didn't work. I already have another opportunity that popped up like two hours after I posted that where I actually have two internal referrals, so I'll probably just go to the interview for this poo poo place as practice and then not accept their offer if I get one unless there is an *incredible* explanation as to why they were loving weirdos on the phone.
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Mar 28, 2018 00:23
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m0therfux0r posted:I tried that too and it didn't work. I already have another opportunity that popped up like two hours after I posted that where I actually have two internal referrals, so I'll probably just go to the interview for this poo poo place as practice and then not accept their offer if I get one unless there is an *incredible* explanation as to why they were loving weirdos on the phone. You don't have to go to an interview to get an explanation for that. I'll give it to you for free: they're misers.
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Mar 28, 2018 00:43
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If I see a job posting that has a salary range and the high end of that range is 10k less than what I'd target, is it still worth interviewing for the job? Or is that not worth my time since they probably won't go higher than their high end? I'd imagine the benefits for this company are slightly better than my current benefits, so that would certainly play into a decision.
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Mar 28, 2018 04:28
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I don't know how large the time cost of interviewing is for you, but interview/negotiating practice isn't wasted time to me. I don't think it'd hurt to take an interview.
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Mar 28, 2018 06:08
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't know how large the time cost of interviewing is for you, but interview/negotiating practice isn't wasted time to me. I don't think it'd hurt to take an interview. I agree with this sentiment. I interviewed at a job about 12% under what I would have needed to justify moving, and after they interviewed me and decided I would be a great fit they moved mountains in an effort to get the total comp. to an acceptable range for me. Unfortunately, that position had some other problems (like 40% international travel and a relocation away from family) that ultimately killed it for me, but it was 100% worth taking the interview (the offer from which I used as my BATNA in salary negotiations in last FY).
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Mar 28, 2018 13:43
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sim posted:I'm thinking about asking for $170K and accepting anything above $160K. If they won't go above $160K, I'll counter asking for a signing bonus. If the highest I can get is ~$150K, I'm going to ask my current employer for a raise with this offer as my BATNA. I don't want to stay at my current job for much longer, but I don't want to sign up for a daily commute without a large increase in compensation. Well, I chickened out and lowered my ask to $160K. They countered with $155K but lowered the stock options from 1,000 shares to just 100 (currently valued at $6/share). So overall that's about $10K below what I asked for and significantly lowers my upside. Of course they talk big about potentially growing from a Director of Engineering to VP and associated salary/equity increases in the future, but much like private stock I don't put much value in that. I've already responded asking about their annual review, raise, bonus, and employee referrals. Those are mostly just nice to know, but will help drag out the negotiation process a little bit just in case another opportunity progresses closer to an offer. Regardless of their answers, I am thinking about countering with: - $10K signing bonus - 2 days per week remote officially included in the offer I wonder though, if they are haggling over $5K on the salary, are they really going to concede a $10K bonus? They have already come up $15K. I've held back on the remote because I felt like I could get it for free since they are somewhat flexible, but at this point I'd rather get it formally declared to make me feel confident about the job change.
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Mar 28, 2018 16:24
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Bonuses can be easier for a company to cough up than salary. It's a one-time outlay of cash (sometimes from an entirely different budget) and doesn't affect internal pay scale dynamics in the same way that salary does.
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Mar 28, 2018 17:34
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fantastic in plastic posted:Bonuses can be easier for a company to cough up than salary. It's a one-time outlay of cash (sometimes from an entirely different budget) and doesn't affect internal pay scale dynamics in the same way that salary does. They may also ask you to sign an employment contract requiring you to return the bonus if you leave within x months. QOL stuff might be the easier ask, so getting extra remote days in writing is a good thing.
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Mar 28, 2018 19:18
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sim posted:Well, I chickened out and lowered my ask to $160K. They countered with $155K but lowered the stock options from 1,000 shares to just 100 (currently valued at $6/share). So overall that's about $10K below what I asked for and significantly lowers my upside. Of course they talk big about potentially growing from a Director of Engineering to VP and associated salary/equity increases in the future, but much like private stock I don't put much value in that. Maybe I'm.missing something, but what's the point of taking on all the risks a startup entails if you aren't going to be rewarded when it succeeds. That amount of options is insultingly low for pretty much any position.
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Mar 28, 2018 20:55
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The point for me is a $20K raise. I'm going from a smaller startup with no proven business model to a larger one with funding. Having worked for startups most of my career, I don't see a lot of risk. I find the risk of layoffs from a larger company to be just as likely.
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Mar 28, 2018 21:15
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sim posted:The point for me is a $20K raise. I'm going from a smaller startup with no proven business model to a larger one with funding. Having worked for startups most of my career, I don't see a lot of risk. I find the risk of layoffs from a larger company to be just as likely. I'm with asur here. Also as someone who has been in startups for most of my career. And one of them went public last year. Good thing I didn't think 100 shares was a fair deal or I wouldn't be paying cash for my next house.
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Mar 28, 2018 21:26
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sim posted:I find the risk of layoffs from a larger company to be just as likely. It's not.
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