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    Notice the borders of that map. That's roughly 3x the size of modern day Hungary.
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Mar 28, 2018 21:37
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Lightning Knight posted:Trump didn’t advocate for universal healthcare. He promised to maintain the status quo and vaguely improve things in an open-ended way that you could read whatever you wanted into it. His open ended answers were amplified by his supporters/russians as well. I distinctly remember seeing memes about how trump was better for weed legalization than hillary
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Mar 28, 2018 21:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yeah, they should really vote those guys out next time there is an election. You are so loving dense, you have no idea how bad the situation is, just stop.
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Mar 28, 2018 21:39
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Sarcastr0 posted:Well, that's some strong moral clarity at least. How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Examine The Efficacy Of Voting For Literal Nazis
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Mar 28, 2018 21:41
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Sarcastr0 posted:Well, that's some strong moral clarity at least. there is no good effect to voting for nazis, unless you think people from minority groups and outgroups being slaughtered wholesale is good giving even the slightest bit of power to nazis is idiotic beyond all belief. there is no upside, no better situation that comes of it hope that clears stuff up for you
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Mar 28, 2018 21:41
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Jobbik: "We literally plan on exterminating the jews and gypsies, as well as aggressively pursuing aggressive irredentist expansion." Smart, reasonable centrist: "It's only for one term, what's the harm?"
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Mar 28, 2018 21:46
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So what I’m hearing is that Hungary is hosed. 
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Mar 28, 2018 21:46
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Lightning Knight posted:So what I’m hearing is that Hungary is hosed. Extremely.
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Mar 28, 2018 21:47
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Nosfereefer posted:Jobbik: "We literally plan on exterminating the jews and gypsies, as well as aggressively pursuing aggressive irredentist expansion." The other guy is also a nazi but will have votes to rewrite the constitution
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Mar 28, 2018 22:00
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Is "voting for nazis is a good idea" really the hill you want to die on? Because jesus christ
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Mar 28, 2018 22:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The other guy is also a nazi but will have votes to rewrite the constitution You have no understanding of the situation at all, and you're trying to do some [centrist_american_logic.exe]. Orbán is not anywhere near Jobbik, despite being a right-wing extremist who should have been hanged yesterday.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:04
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You can just leave it at "Hungary is hosed, there's no real solution here" OOCC and spare yourself the embarrassment of going to bat for literal motherfucking nazis.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:05
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They won't respect anything, they won't have the party numbers to enact the stuff the majority party guy would have either. They aren't electing a king. (unless the guy who has enough votes to push constitutional changes wins, then they are) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933 As everybody can see the Nazis won't have a majority of the seats in the Reichstag, so obvously Hitler won't be able to do any lasting harm. - A sensible centrist in 1933
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Mar 28, 2018 22:08
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How much daylight is between Jobbik and Orban at this point? Would they actually block Orban's goals for the country in any meaningful way?
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Mar 28, 2018 22:10
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Flavahbeast posted:How much daylight is between Jobbik and Orban at this point? Would they actually block Orban's goals for the country in any meaningful way? Not really, and Orbán is basically free to pursue his hosed up ambitions without opposition. Giving Jobbik the keys to the kingdom will on the other hand immediately pave way for their far more dangerous vision. It's an extremely depressing situation as pretty much everyone else are completely marginalized on the political scene.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:15
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Nosfereefer posted:You have no understanding of the situation at all, and you're trying to do some [centrist_american_logic.exe]. Orbán is not anywhere near Jobbik, despite being a right-wing extremist who should have been hanged yesterday. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 22:25
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Voting Orban on some "at least he's not Jobbik" is the most centrist thing imaginable. You are broken.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:26
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The obvious pragmatic solution is a tactical vote for a new Holocaust. Sorry if you Berniebros are too naive to see the reality of the situation.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:31
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Sarcastr0 posted:Well, that's some strong moral clarity at least. I imagine that if voting the far-right into power is the optimal strategy in a particular situation, things are already so bad that any examination into relative efficacy is basically pointless. Nosfereefer posted:You are so loving dense, you have no idea how bad the situation is, just stop. It's important to keep in mind that his engagement in this discussion has basically consisted of seeing the people who identify as leftist/radical left take one position and, as a result, assuming the contrary position is true by default and trying to construct a line of reasoning to support it. If the "leftist/radical left" aligned posters in this thread had came in supporting this move, he would be arguing against it. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 22:33
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I'm pretty sure OOCC mostly doesn't have the political consciousness to even be a broke brained centrist, he just really, really hates people who belittle his magical flying car technofetishism and contorts his views to oppose theirs out of pure reactionary spite. A lot of the people on this forum that most fiercely mock the coming technorapture are openly somewhat left-ish, and thus we get the "ludditestomper58" incarnation of OOCC.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:36
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Voting Orban on some "at least he's not Jobbik" is the most centrist thing imaginable. So you don't want to vote for the nazis? Heh, how centrist of you 
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Mar 28, 2018 22:36
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The obvious pragmatic solution is a tactical vote for a new Holocaust. Sorry if you Berniebros are too naive to see the reality of the situation.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Voting Orban on some "at least he's not Jobbik" is the most centrist thing imaginable. how about not voting for orban or the nazis?
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Mar 28, 2018 22:38
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Condiv posted:how about not voting for right-wing parties? did that ever cross your mind? to be fair that's all we got in america.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:41
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OOCC 1: "Big strong daddy Trump can't be beaten and you're obviously thinking this thought I just made up." OOCC, son of OOCC: "You should vote for nazis."
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Mar 28, 2018 22:41
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Ytlaya posted:It's important to keep in mind that his engagement in this discussion has basically consisted of seeing the people who identify as leftist/radical left take one position and, as a result, assuming the contrary position is true by default and trying to construct a line of reasoning to support it. If the "leftist/radical left" aligned posters in this thread had came in supporting this move, he would be arguing against it. Yeah, it's a very predictable pattern. My main point is hammering down how goddamn awful Jobbik is, especially since they are actively going for the "Hitler tamed" narrative this election. It's absolutely horrifying, since it's demonstratively working.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:42
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I'm usually one to argue against tactical voting, but in Turkey's elections there's much stronger reasons for it. The real question is why not get all the non-nazis to coalesce around a non-nazi party? If the answer is "You can't possibly win that way", then we're well past the point where discussing voting strategies matters.
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Mar 28, 2018 22:42
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Yeah where are the left wing parties in Hungary right now and what the hell is up with them? From what I can tell in wikipedia they maybe have 25% support (vs the 25% that supports straight Nazi and the 50+% that support slightly watered down Nazi)
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Mar 28, 2018 22:49
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*OOCC stands over two buttons, one labeled "Vote for a Nazi" and the other "do literally anything else"* *A bead of sweat forms on his forehead*
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Mar 28, 2018 22:55
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Feldegast42 posted:Yeah where are the left wing parties in Hungary right now and what the hell is up with them? From what I can tell in wikipedia they maybe have 25% support (vs the 25% that supports straight Nazi and the 50+% that support slightly watered down Nazi) The Hungarian Socialist Party is a direct descendant of the former ruling communist party, and their current strength is pretty amazing based on that alone. Besides them, the only real party are the Christian Democrats, which are currently in a "coalition" with Fidesz (Orbán doesn't think so personally). [edit] In addition, endemic corruption and falling living standards since the end of the Cold War has left much of the population completely indifferent to politics. There is next to no faith in any of the country's institutions, and pretty much nobody expects tomorrow to be better than today. Nosfereefer fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Mar 28, 2018 |
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Mar 28, 2018 22:56
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It is refreshing to see the accelerationist(ish) argument explicitly support electing nazis. They usually dance around that bit.
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Mar 28, 2018 23:31
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Paracaidas posted:It is refreshing to see the accelerationist(ish) argument explicitly support electing nazis. They usually dance around that bit. i wouldn't call them accelerationist since they don't think electing the nazis will tear down the system and allow a new one to be built in its place. rather, they seem to think for some reason that they are highly pragmatic and that voting for nazis will pit right against right and buy some time for a better alternative to show up. dunno what that's called other than idiotic
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Mar 28, 2018 23:39
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Paracaidas posted:It is refreshing to see the accelerationist(ish) argument explicitly support electing nazis. They usually dance around that bit. Have you been following this conversation at all?
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Mar 28, 2018 23:41
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R. Guyovich posted:fascism isn't a coherent ideology. that's part of the appeal It sort of is, at least in the classical Mussolini sense. Authoritarian nationalist government, mixed market economy with focus on obtaining an autarky.
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Mar 28, 2018 23:59
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Condiv posted:i wouldn't call them accelerationist since they don't think electing the nazis will tear down the system and allow a new one to be built in its place. rather, they seem to think for some reason that they are highly pragmatic and that voting for nazis will pit right against right and buy some time for a better alternative to show up. dunno what that's called other than idiotic Office Pig posted:Have you been following this conversation at all? I'm perhaps giving too much (too little? I can't even tell anymore) credit to OOOC based on Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's saying that if the guy in power stays in power there might not be another real election after this one, and that there is no viable candidate running against him except another right wing guy who is around 50% of the possible vote. So you would be better voting for that guy and taking a bad couple years over a guy that might literally end democracy. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yeah, they should really vote those guys out next time there is an election. but then I tend to consider any argument of "elect the furthest right choice possible so that we can replace them with something better later" as a form of accelerationist poo poo? The overtones of pragmatism make it especially strange though.
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Mar 29, 2018 00:05
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Paracaidas posted:but then I tend to consider any argument of "elect the furthest right choice possible so that we can replace them with something better later" as a form of accelerationist poo poo? The overtones of pragmatism make it especially strange though. Accellerationism is voting the worst guy to speed the collapse of the system or the opinion of a thing to try to get to the option you want faster. The idea of the article is that both sides are so intolerable that voting for one or the other is a strategic choice where the nominally worse guy has worse ideas but will lack the political coalition to enshrine his ideas constitutionally while the "better" guy is also garbage but has the votes on his side to enshrine the end of real elections. So a tactical vote to consider is voting the worse guy that will have less ability to end free elections over the microscopically better guy who has the votes already needed to make sure his politics become the unchangeable law forever. Like you don't vote the worse guy because you like his ideas, he's an actual nazi, but you vote the worse guy strategically because he will lack the ability to make permanent changes to the structure of government. then in 4 years you can run hungarian bernie sanders and not have the constitution say "no bernie sanders allowed"
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Mar 29, 2018 00:36
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Don’t blame me, I voted for Hitler.
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Mar 29, 2018 00:46
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Wouldn't the Nazi just cut a deal to share power with the other far-right dickheads, or perhaps even co-opt that party entirely, and then implement most or all of the terrible policies you were hoping to avoid by voting for him? I mean it's not like with leftists, OOCC: right-wingers tend to have no problem allying themselves with erstwhile enemies if it means they get to brutalize more people.
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Mar 29, 2018 00:52
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Kilroy posted:Wouldn't the Nazi just cut a deal to share power with the other far-right dickheads, or perhaps even co-opt that party entirely, and then implement most or all of the terrible policies you were hoping to avoid by voting for him? Probably. They’d also use the centrist votes as proof of a mandate.
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Mar 29, 2018 01:00
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Kilroy posted:Wouldn't the Nazi just cut a deal to share power with the other far-right dickheads, or perhaps even co-opt that party entirely, and then implement most or all of the terrible policies you were hoping to avoid by voting for him? If the whole entire government is already staffed by nazis that will vote with the nazi then who you vote for doesn't really matter and heil hydra I guess.
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Mar 29, 2018 01:10
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