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sanchez posted:If your household is like most, you have two cars, one of which would still be gasoline powered. It'd still work just fine for any kind of unusual long distance driving. I completely agree with this! People are not really all that rational with car purchases or else we would all be driving stripped out F-150s, Priuses, and 4Runners! drgitlin posted:I don’t know where you live, but gas stations are actually becoming fewer and further between here in the DC area. Even if the density of gas stations decreases by a factor of 5 they're still extremely common. Find me somewhere in DC where the nearest gas station is more than a mile away. edit: I am a pro-EV person, I am just trying to explain why people struggle with this stuff! Dismissing people's concerns as "Well that isn't actually a problem" isn't really valuable in terms of increasing EV adoption!
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Apr 2, 2018 14:18
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IOwnCalculus posted:I love how this thread runs through this cycle over and over again. Nor is average enough when half the people drive beyond average every day. Start using a 90th percentile commute and see where that takes you. In my case, I've done 200 miles in a day during work hours, and drive back to my parent's place for events/holidays/whatever at least once a month at 120 miles through mountains each way.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:28
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ilkhan posted:It's almost as if people want to do things beyond the "average commute" with their vehicle. This is why I think extended-range hybrids like the Volt and RE i3 are going to become more common. Electric for 90% of your driving, but still capable of whatever you need. People in large metro areas like myself can get away with a long range BEV, but there of lots of places where I can see even a 300mi range BEV not being ideal.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:33
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I wonder how practical ev hybrids would be if they used a hydrogen fuelcell or natgas electric generator to provide backup range. Id be really happy with a 100 mile range battery if I knew I had an extra couple hundred miles in fuel storage for just in case.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:45
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I'm guessing he did that on purpose to show what the car usually does in that spot, with the line wear tricking the car into the divider. It was warning for him to grab the wheel as well. Not a problem if you use the autopilot as instructed, but a big problem if you believe the hype.
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Apr 2, 2018 14:50
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Yeah, the two factors from me getting an EV are 1. Price (duh) and 2. Range. Though both our wife and I work from home and an EV with a 100 mile range would cover 98% of our driving use cases, the remaining 2% are a showstopper. About once a month I have to commute to work and back, which is 200+ miles of traffic on I84/90. Even an EV with 300 mile range would likely need to be charged while I was at work (and there's no EV charger there, natch). Then there's the multiple trips a year I take up to Vermont to my father's, who has a set of 8 solar panels that power his home. Can't charge a car off of that, and the nearest charger is 30 minutes away from his house. The obvious solution is to have two cars, but since we haven't needed more than one car ever (again, we both work from home) having to pay insurance year round on a car that we only use on long trips seems impractical. asecondduck fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 14:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:
Same here, and agreed. Hell I'd probably be at the end of a lease on a first generation Leaf by now if my office would give me even a 120v outlet to charge from. My commute is about 50 miles round trip, but all in worst case scenarios for the Leaf. High speed highway the whole way, high temperatures with heavy HVAC use, and no battery cooling so it degrades quickly. Even then, from a financial perspective, the Leaf was only a sure bet at $4+ a gallon for gas. Of course I was comparing it to the $2500 Ranger I had at the time...
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Apr 2, 2018 15:04
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it looks like AP is trying to follow the solid white as the edge of the road, and the white line on the right of the gore point island isn't there, or is heavily faded, so it just happily follows the left solid white line assuming the lane continues.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:07
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lelandjs posted:The obvious solution is to have two cars, but since we haven't needed more than one car ever (again, we both work from home) having to pay insurance year round on a car that we only use on long trips seems impractical. You can rent them, too, which I think will be a common road trip pattern.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:08
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I completely agree with this! People are not really all that rational with car purchases or else we would all be driving stripped out F-150s, Priuses, and 4Runners! Range anxiety is also based on what happens if you run out. Running out of juice with an electric is a huge deal and necessitates you being towed somewhere it can be recharged overnight, forcing you to plan trips accordingly. If there was some quick and easy way to get an EV going again in the middle of nowhere, I would be a lot more interested in one. As it is, they're pretty much restricted to commuter vehicles near major population centers.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:10
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Three Olives posted:Doesn't a 300 mile range seem excessive? It's the bare minimum before I even consider one of these things. Three Olives posted:OK, but almost all electric cars are priced at entry level luxury cars levels so doesn't it matter much right now that the market doesn't really compete with econoboxes? If this EV fad is ever going to actually catch on, IT NEEDS TO matter.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:23
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Subjunctive posted:You can rent them, too, which I think will be a common road trip pattern. I've thought about this, and from a quick check I could rent a (heh) Kia Soul from Enterprise for $150 for the trip I'm going to be taking to Vermont this weekend, which would certainly be more cost-effective for the four or so trips a year I'd need. Having to rent a car for the monthly trips to the office would kind of suck, though. It's all moot because I can't afford an EV anyway, and if there isn't some kind of major breakthrough with battery tech/cost I may not be able to get one even when I'm looking to replace my current car. $500/mo for a car may not seem like a lot for most, but it's a lot for us.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:28
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That's alot like the i5 hov lane i was talking about in a previous post but it will try to veer left into a barrier which is a cliff. I have not tried it on AP 2.5 yet.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:28
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IOwnCalculus posted:I love how this thread runs through this cycle over and over again. I'll use myself as the example of a non-city dweller. If I want to run errands, like hitting a few stores: Harbor Freight, Trader Joes, hit something besides fast food for lunch, Costco, gently caress around in a bookstore for an hour...that's about 125 miles, about 80 of which is to/from the city with those stores. About half the people working at the gigafactory are actually in the same situation. 
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Apr 2, 2018 15:29
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Deteriorata posted:If there was some quick and easy way to get an EV going again in the middle of nowhere, I would be a lot more interested in one. As it is, they're pretty much restricted to commuter vehicles near major population centers. Like, a mobile fast-charge system? A bank of capacitors on a tow truck? I bet something like that will eventually come about once EVs hit some critical mass.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:30
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Like, a mobile fast-charge system? A bank of capacitors on a tow truck? I bet something like that will eventually come about once EVs hit some critical mass. Superduty and a tow strap
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Apr 2, 2018 15:43
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Like, a mobile fast-charge system? A bank of capacitors on a tow truck? I bet something like that will eventually come about once EVs hit some critical mass. AAA has this service in a few markets https://electrek.co/2016/09/06/aaa-ev-emergency-charging-truck/
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Apr 2, 2018 15:43
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I have two cars. However, if you start overlapping what "things" your cars do, then concerns are still there. For me, an EV would replace my WRX and I would be keeping my BRZ. So, if I wanted to take a longer trip while the weather was favorable, I'm fine. However, if I wanted to, say, drive up to the local ski resort, that's a 136 mile round trip, up the mountain, in the winter. That's something that could happen several times a winter and since it's winter a 150 mile range vehicle could have significantly less than 150 miles. Anyways, let's look at it from a different perspective. The recommended number of hours to drive before a break is between 2 and 3. 70mph average puts that at between 140-210 miles between 15-20 minute stops. 150 mile range barely squeaks in and may not make it due to a number of variables like terrain or weather. 200 miles gives a comfortable margin.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:43
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lelandjs posted:I've thought about this, and from a quick check I could rent a (heh) Kia Soul from Enterprise for $150 for the trip I'm going to be taking to Vermont this weekend, which would certainly be more cost-effective for the four or so trips a year I'd need. Having to rent a car for the monthly trips to the office would kind of suck, though. Not to dispute your point, but don't forget to add in the fuel savings to the $500/mo for the car. I just purchased my Volt for $37K out the door and put $7500 down so my loan is the actual price I'll pay after tax credit. My payment is $450ish and I'll easily save $200 a month from what I was driving before, even after taking into account the electricity costs. So $250/mo for a nice new car isn't bad to me.
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Apr 2, 2018 15:56
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TraderStav posted:Not to dispute your point, but don't forget to add in the fuel savings to the $500/mo for the car. We spend way less than that on fuel. I'd estimate maybe about $300/mo on fuel, and the car we actually own outright (we had some money left over from selling our old house so we paid off the car in full). Which I guess was a little shortsighted, but on the other hand we really like the car and weren't thinking about an EV really. And we didn't want to keep making monthly car payments anyway.
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Apr 2, 2018 16:20
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I completely agree with this! People are not really all that rational with car purchases or else we would all be driving stripped out F-150s, Priuses, and 4Runners! From where I live in SW, the nearest one is more than a mile away on Pennsylvania Ave SE, afaik. Edit: yep, Maps says nearest one to our house is 1.2 miles.
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Apr 2, 2018 17:25
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bull3964 posted:I have two cars. However, if you start overlapping what "things" your cars do, then concerns are still there. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 2, 2018 |
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Apr 2, 2018 18:33
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The BRZ is eleventy billion times more fun to drive than the WRX. It's like not even close. The only thing the WRX has on it is straight line acceleration which is something electric vehicles excel at.
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Apr 2, 2018 18:58
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Right. I’m saying that your niche of fun sporty around town car should be more easily replaceable by an EV. But for whatever reason there isn’t an eGolf sport or similar cars available right now.
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Apr 2, 2018 19:13
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bawfuls posted:Right. I’m saying that your niche of fun sporty around town car should be more easily replaceable by an EV. But for whatever reason there isn’t an eGolf sport or similar cars available right now. Tesla seems the only one to care about performance in the BEV space.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:00
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I don't understand why none of these other car companies are even trying it yet. This dude put a stock Leaf drivetrain into a civic CRX, built a custom controller, and got 300 hp out of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6OInkLWAhk I would think that OEMs could build a "sport" version of these cars with little more than a different controller and charge a premium for it. If the car is a sport coupe, I'd bet consumers would be more forgiving of limited range too, since it's obviously intended as a fun car.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:12
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There is also a Canadian dude that put a Tesla motor/battery setup into a Lotus Evora and has been tracking it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3F-8QnmNW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If09etyztl8
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Apr 2, 2018 20:13
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bawfuls posted:I don't understand why none of these other car companies are even trying it yet. Because it's not profitable yet and they don't want to compete with their own profitable products.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:17
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Just tossing my two cents in to the ring here on range. Range comes down to basically three tiers for me:
Bump those numbers up to 50/200/300 and I think I'd feel comfortable even in sub-zero temperatures with winter tires equipped. Range beyond that would be very nice but is not really as big of a deal as long as I can charge up overnight at home. If we want to eliminate almost all need for ICEs as far as personal vehicles go, IMO total range is less important than charge speed. If I can put ~4 hours of highway travel in to the car in less time than it takes to go to the bathroom and get some fast food, let's say 200-300 miles of charge in 10-15 minutes then I don't really care as much what the total number is. Of course that's a lot of electricity to move around and the technical issues have been well covered here.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:17
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Powershift posted:Because it's not profitable yet and they don't want to compete with their own profitable products.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:28
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But, at the moment, it can't beat the higher margin of that same sport product with a conventional drivetrain.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:30
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bawfuls posted:The marginal cost of a different controller is negligible though. The sport version should be a higher margin product. But a $30,000 egolf they lose $5,000 a car on isn't going to eat sales of the base $20,000 golf a $35,000 egolf sport they break even on might eat sales of the $35,000 golf R they make $5,000 on.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:35
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One nice feature of a big battery pack is that it can take on more energy (thus range) in the same amount of time. The chemical charging limit scales with the volume of the battery. Provided the electrical and cooling systems can keep up, charging from 20% to 80% takes the same time no matter the pack size. Double the size of the battery and you won’t just stop half as often on a long trip; you will spend half as long charging.
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Apr 2, 2018 20:40
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Platystemon posted:Provided the electrical and cooling systems can keep up, charging from 20% to 80% takes the same time no matter the pack size. Yes, but it's good to stress that the electrical system that needs to keep up is the charging power from the grid, which doesn't scale with similar ease. Other advantages of a bigger battery (i.e. more standard size cells) is more available hp and more regen power. bawfuls posted:I would think that OEMs could build a "sport" version of these cars with little more than a different controller and charge a premium for it. If the car is a sport coupe, I'd bet consumers would be more forgiving of limited range too, since it's obviously intended as a fun car. Renault intends to: https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/concept-cars/zzoe-concept.html Other than that, there really isn't much point among the lower kWh cars. The controller is perhaps the least complicated thing to upgrade. The battery is the bottleneck for deliverable power. If you're discharging a Leaf battery at 300 hp equivalent, you can have some fun but you're exceeding the tech spec with silly margins. Similarly you can take a VW Golf, put a giant turbo on it and make 600 hp. But it'll break pretty quickly so the factory doesn't bother. Batteries are also more boring in that they give less and less power as the voltage drops, and pedal to the metal at low state of charge can cause a big enough voltage drop for the controller - at least a well designed one - to cry uncle and shut the car down.
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Apr 2, 2018 21:14
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ilkhan posted:Which is one reason people get excited about the possibility of a Tesla P3D. I know it's the one I want. Until later this year when the I-Pace arrives, and then next year when we get the Audi e-tron and Porsche Mission E.
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Apr 2, 2018 22:13
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Platystemon posted:One nice feature of a big battery pack is that it can take on more energy (thus range) in the same amount of time. Assuming you can find a charger with enough power, that is. Last I checked, few if any non-Tesla fast chargers in operation in the US offer more than 50kW. For what it's worth, Samsung has been working on a lithium-graphene battery that could charge in 12 minutes: https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-develops-battery-material-with-5x-faster-charging-speed Ola posted:Other advantages of a bigger battery (i.e. more standard size cells) is more available hp and more regen power. As I understand, that's why the new Tesla Roadster is getting 600 miles worth of batteries.
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Apr 3, 2018 00:11
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drgitlin posted:From where I live in SW, the nearest one is more than a mile away on Pennsylvania Ave SE, afaik. fair enough, I forgot that people live in SW now still, that is very, very close to you and it's in a recently developed neighborhood where people probably aren't allowed to build gas stations
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Apr 3, 2018 02:02
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Cockmaster posted:Assuming you can find a charger with enough power, that is. Last I checked, few if any non-Tesla fast chargers in operation in the US offer more than 50kW. It's also worth noting that when you see info about EV infrastructure in the US, the author often neglects to mention that a huge percentage of that infrastructure is concentrated in a few metro areas of California. You can go a very, very long way in many parts of the US without seeing a fast charger that doesn't say Tesla on the side.
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Apr 3, 2018 02:33
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MrYenko posted:It's also worth noting that when you see info about EV infrastructure in the US, the author often neglects to mention that a huge percentage of that infrastructure is concentrated in a few metro areas of California. You can go a very, very long way in many parts of the US without seeing a fast charger that doesn't say Tesla on the side. The picture looks pretty grim if you get on PlugShare and exclude Superchargers and J1772. The west and east coast states have a bunch. But outside of that it is nothing but isolated islands of fast chargers. Looking at the PlugShare map, outside of coastal states, just going state to state relying on fast chargers would be difficult to impossible with anything but a Tesla. And cross country just isn't happening. stevewm fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 03:33
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stevewm posted:The picture looks pretty grim if you get on PlugShare and exclude Superchargers and J1772. The west and east coast states have a bunch. But outside of that it is nothing but isolated islands of fast chargers. I wish I could loving exclude chargers that are inside car dealerships. It seems like 90% of even our J1772 chargers are at dealers.
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Apr 3, 2018 03:36
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