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It seems they are all sort of cliche stories about abuse and finding recovery in a religion. John was sexually abused, Jacob has some severe ptsd from getting nearly burned alive in Iraq and watching his buddies die or whatever, and faith (v3.0?) was a neglected youth that fell into heroin. It’s nothing new at all and only acts to marginalize the lack of support for veterans and the #metoo movement.
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Apr 3, 2018 14:22
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Blind Rasputin posted:It seems they are all sort of cliche stories about abuse and finding recovery in a religion. John was sexually abused, Jacob has some severe ptsd from getting nearly burned alive in Iraq and watching his buddies die or whatever, and faith (v3.0?) was a neglected youth that fell into heroin. It’s nothing new at all and only acts to marginalize the lack of support for veterans and the #metoo movement. Jacob also
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Apr 3, 2018 14:23
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Can't have pathos without a gut wrenching backstory.
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Apr 3, 2018 14:28
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This Air Raid mission sucks rear end, can I do it with a better plane if I come back?
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Apr 3, 2018 14:56
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Another reason why I think Pagan Min is still the best antagonist of the series. Unlike the other villains he had a good reason for wanting to keep you alive, as the last remnant of a woman he loved. He was a tyrant but also pointed out how hosed up the Golden Path were (Mohan killed your half-sister, Sabal is a child-marrying religious weirdo, Amita wants to be a drug lord) and it also helped he had a fantastic design and voice actor. So did Vas but I did find Pagan Min to be more fun. In this game things seem very cut and dried, it's a bunch of nutjobs who are very damaged by their pasts, and definitely leans more along the line of cult militants than political zealots. At no point yet have I felt the same I did in FC4, wherein you're bound to help even an imperfect and possibly hosed up faction. Kyrat in essence is a really messed up place and your dead mother's wishes that you visit it is actually supremely irresponsible now that I think about it.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:00
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DLC Inc posted:Another reason why I think Pagan Min is still the best antagonist of the series. Unlike the other villains he had a good reason for wanting to keep you alive, as the last remnant of a woman he loved. He was a tyrant but also pointed out how hosed up the Golden Path were (Mohan killed your half-sister, Sabal is a child-marrying religious weirdo, Amita wants to be a drug lord) and it also helped he had a fantastic design and voice actor. So did Vas but I did find Pagan Min to be more fun. I think in this game they tried to give the cult leaders some sympathetic traits, but this falls completely flat because they're just all psycho murderers who kill people, and it's not very believeable that thousands of militants in nowheresville Montana would be inspired to follow them. I think they should have leaned hard in the other direction and made them all grotesque caricatures of American evangelism, humorous in their excess but also frightening. I don't think the writing team was competent enough in their cultural knowledge to satirize these archetypes effectively.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:07
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quote:your dead mother's wishes that you visit it is actually supremely irresponsible now that I think about it. Wasn't the reason that she knew that you'd fix their situation? I know that's absurd but it's nowhere close to the stupidity of the FC5 plot.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:09
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Noirex posted:I’m so curious at how possibly bad the ending can be. Everyone agrees it’s bad. I think even Mass Effect 3 had it’s defenders. Is it ME3 type of terrible? It singlehandidly kills any desire to ever touch the game again. It ruins everything you've done throughout the course of the game, and makes you unlikely to want to 100% the game. It is so awful it retroactively makes all the previous Far Cry games worse as well, and tanks basically any prospects for the future of the series so the writer can jack off onto the load of poo poo he just deposited on your computer. It is most definitely on par with the ME3 ending. The problem ironically isn't the ending itself, but how it completely rips away player agency in every way possible. It removes you from the story wholly. It'd be fine if this was a book or a movie, which seems to be what the writer wants to write for. But it's not, it's a video game, and because of that it turns into one of the worst endings in the genre! Like hey, ending spoilers but they could have had us realize what was coming, and change the nature of the last mission to being a race against time/Joseph to clear out his bunker/get everyone into his bunker before the world ends. Then have the ending be Pastor John/Mary on the phone trying to contact Seattle. Dark ending! Fits their twist! Sets up whatever they want to set up. But my agency is still respected. My actions still saved as many as I could. Or hey, they could have had it be the ending I thought it was going to be from the start. Which is that we'll kill Joseph, leave his bunker, all get together at the Spread Eagle to call Billings and get nothing but silence. Then get a cutscene of us driving out of the valley to find nothing left. Wow! While we were loving around in here the world ended, maybe Joseph was right all along, how crazy. Then the crazy scientist guy mentions the mountains are blocking the radiation, so whatever enjoy living in Eden. Like holy poo poo, but they destroy everything you do off the basis of the goddamn radio news reports you probably don't hear while driving around. That to me cemented that the guy wrote the plot completely separate from the game for a book or something he was doing on the side, then just loving copy pasted it over wholesale. Because if this was a book, the deputy would have of course heard those radio reports and the ending would have made significantly more sense ( and I wouldn't be angry because the book destroyed my 30-40 hours worth of enjoyment ). Like the ending plus all the other niggling little issues I ran into across the game turned this into the worst Far Cry of the bunch. Primal is better. 2 is better. It's a mess. All the fun I had was deliberately ruined. Rookersh fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 15:19
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Mr Scumbag posted:Wasn't the reason that she knew that you'd fix their situation? well she may have thought so but she also failed to mention "hey btw this country is still under the iron thumb of a man I may or may not have hosed on the side, and had a side-kid with, who was then killed by your father" That's another thing: the secret ending in FC4 was actually very cool and revealed this secret WAY earlier than intended. Like, it was poo poo you wouldn't have known about until very late in the game, in an area you won't see until the very last moments of the story. The secret ending in FC5 you get by hesitating, however, is a thousand times lazier, worthless, and doesn't lead to any kind of interesting scene. It's insulting that it's even an option when weighed against the previous title's alternative end.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:21
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exquisite tea posted:I don't think the writing team was competent enough in their cultural knowledge to satirize these archetypes effectively. I don't know if I'm giving them too much credit, but the story and characters are so genuinely terrible and the integration of those characters and missions into the main game are so disjointed that it makes me think that they had to do a lot of re-writes and this is the best they could do after already delaying the game once. From what I know of video games and huge projects in general, these things are greenlit and started years before release which means that this game might well have started development at around the same time as Primal, if not a little bit after. The world has changed dramatically since then. The proto alt-right at the time was kind of a joke and a minority that could provoke amusing commentary of a game. Then they got a reality TV star elected. America and to some extent, the world took a very hard right turn very quickly and as a mass market corporation, Ubisoft decided (In my opinion) to make a lot of changes to avoid alienating a lot of their market (There really are a lot of alt-right people among gamers who like to stamp and scream very loudly and review bomb) and to avoid controversy in general they changed what they had fairly radically at a point where they were already halfway through development. What we got was a shitshow, and if that's the reason they should have just delayed the game again, I think.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:21
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My reading of the story of this game is that the sect literally capture everyone, brainwash and release. That every character you see in the game has been programmed at some point.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:23
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DLC Inc posted:well she may have thought so but she also failed to mention "hey btw this country is still under the iron thumb of a man I may or may not have hosed on the side, and had a side-kid with, who was then killed by your father" Well yeah, that would just be hamfisted writing and no writer would be so obvious (and we're talking after Far Cry 5 has been released). I'm not saying that any of it is good, but the vibe was always that she was a good woman who knew her son would have what it took and it gave a more meaningful reason to have you go back. It's decent enough writing to start a game that isn't completely hollow like "She really just wanted you to scatter her ashes. That was it.". The fact that you can end the game early and leave the region by doing nothing is kind of clever in cementing that. You can save yourself, but the Kyrat is hosed without you.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:28
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Rookersh posted:It singlehandidly kills any desire to ever touch the game again. It ruins everything you've done throughout the course of the game, and makes you unlikely to want to 100% the game. It is so awful it retroactively makes all the previous Far Cry games worse as well, and tanks basically any prospects for the future of the series so the writer can jack off onto the load of poo poo he just deposited on your computer. It is most definitely on par with the ME3 ending. Just popping in to say that I agree with every word of this, the story and ending of Far Cry 5 are legit hot garbage that retroactively ruin all the fun you'd managed to get out of the game. Easily worse than anything in ME3, and I still dislike the ME3 endings. Granted, I'm still having an absolute blast in co-op despite the game's attempts to hamstring my fun. But if someone ever makes a mod that just cuts out all the story missions, gives you full resistance meters, and lets you just tool around doing side missions at your own pace, I'm downloading that fucker and never looking back.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:35
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Ending spoiler the nukes aren't real, it's the Bliss/brainwashing. Joseph's programming specifically ties bad things happening to him with nuclear apocalypse. It's not even clear that the radio news you hear is real. Ubisoft literally couldn't even do a bullshit nukes ending, they had to equivocate on even that.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:37
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Noirex posted:I’m so curious at how possibly bad the ending can be. Everyone agrees it’s bad. I think even Mass Effect 3 had it’s defenders. Is it ME3 type of terrible? The two main things are: (1) In changing the format of the game loop to “keep things fresh”, they got rid of sequential plot-advancing story missions. They seem to have gravely underestimated how dependent their stories were on that mission structure, and how incoherent and ludicrous and jarring it would be for the entirety of their story to be told in a way that doesn’t depend on your character being in specific places at specific times, doing specific things. Not only does that mean you’re routinely abducted out of the game while flying helicopters or skydiving through the lower atmosphere for a lecture (which is never interesting), you’re then dropped back into the game to cause further havoc despite being so pliable and vulnerable that the villains can evidently make you helpless at any time. It’s spectacularly ironic, considering the dude to coin “ludonarrative dissonance” as a popular concept in gaming (when he called out Ken Levine and Bioshock) came out of Far Cry 2. (2) They evidently spent 0 time sussing our what the Seeds want and what they’re doing, so the villains spout a lot of vaguely Christian word salad and doing insane things without being recognizable as anything close to real, despite there being rich histories of both dangerous cults and insane apocalyptic fringe Christian movements. Then you have the guy who doesn’t touch religion and spouts social Darwinist boilerplate instead, but the game never actually calls him a fascist. Ubisoft wants us to know he’s a fascist, they want us to know the Seeds are dangerous fundamentalists, but they can’t be named as such, presumably because they’d get bad press. They wanted all the urgency and charge of politics without being political and they ended up with a lot of wet cardboard.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:37
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Mr Scumbag posted:Well yeah, that would just be hamfisted writing and no writer would be so obvious (and we're talking after Far Cry 5 has been released). I'm not saying that any of it is good, but the vibe was always that she was a good woman who knew her son would have what it took and it gave a more meaningful reason to have you go back. It's decent enough writing to start a game that isn't completely hollow like "She really just wanted you to scatter her ashes. That was it.". Yeah I agree completely, even with that obliviousness it still sets up for a character and a backstory you can care about, as well as a straight up historical connection with Pagan Min, who tries to become some weird father figure to you through the encounter. The protagonist in FC5 is faceless and wordless so your connection to the plot and the story is def weaker for it. Luckily quite a few npc/guns for hire are fun but man, next time just get the guy who did the voice for Adam Jensen in this poo poo so we can have a raspy angry officer trade barbs and insult the cult hicks.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:37
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(Ending Spoiler) With regards to foreshadowing, I have played the "Rescue Hudson" segment back at slow speed on Youtube and I really can't see the "Mushroom cloud when she crashes the picture" thing. The most I can see is that the lighting on the picture changes because it gets thrown into the orange-tinted background. Also, I like how a lot of people on Youtube seem to think that the intro movie that seamlessly blends into your character watching it on his phone is supposed to be an after-the-game-takes-place-documentary which means the world could not possibly have ended.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:40
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Discendo Vox posted:Ending spoiler the nukes aren't real, it's the Bliss/brainwashing. Joseph's programming specifically ties bad things happening to him with nuclear apocalypse. It's not even clear that the radio news you hear is real. Ubisoft literally couldn't even do a bullshit nukes ending, they had to equivocate on even that. And that that STILL fucks player agency to the same degree that everyone else has already gone over. It's fractal idiocy.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:43
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Personally I don't mind the silent protagonist thing in general, but that's a personal preference and I'm just a big sucker for customizing my character in games. But a smart writer would realize that when your character can't respond, having them strapped down and making a character monologue at them is a TERRIBLE way of telling a story. SO many points where I would like to interject, or have any sort of reaction to these events, and I just sit there limply. There'd be a way to tell an interesting story with a silent protagonist, but the writers were more concerned about writing a "clever, deep, and dark" story instead of remembering that they're writing for a video game, and stuff that might work in a book or movie doesn't work in an interactive medium. Five minute long cutscenes involving nothing more than a closeup of a character's face as they run through an audition monologue are the sort of thing you notice in your first draft and realize that maybe you should reconsider how you're laying out your narrative.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:44
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The worst dialogue with the silent protagonist is when a character asks a question, then answers themselves. If you gonna have a conversation with yourself, do that in your head you idiot.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:46
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It sort of worked in Far Cry 3 because you were a terrified kid being talked to by an unhinged killer. The protagonist of FC5 is never shown to be anything but resilient and rebellious and the antagonists aren't intimidating.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:47
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Mister Bates posted:your one outside point of contact with the US federal government says he's got 'bigger fish to fry' and that you're on your own for this, so there's presumably some poo poo going down outside, but that's super easy to miss unless you do one side mission in a random place on the map willis is in 3 and 4 too. he is some hosed up CIA dude. his whole quest line is getting trumps piss tape for him and i doubt trump gives enough of gently caress about some war in montana when he can rant on twitter. Discendo Vox posted:Ending spoiler the nukes aren't real, it's the Bliss/brainwashing. Joseph's programming specifically ties bad things happening to him with nuclear apocalypse. It's not even clear that the radio news you hear is real. Ubisoft literally couldn't even do a bullshit nukes ending, they had to equivocate on even that. this. all the far cry games take place in the same universe after each other with hurk a recurring character, they wouldnt end it. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 15:48
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The other issue that just occurred to me is they hardly ever take advantage of the antagonists being a "family". It would have been cool to see them coordinating to take you out, or even just getting more exposure to how they function as a unit. I guess the issue with that though is any one of them could have already been killed by you at any time.
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Apr 3, 2018 15:53
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xzzy posted:The worst dialogue with the silent protagonist is when a character asks a question, then answers themselves. If you gonna have a conversation with yourself, do that in your head you idiot. Well. The best scene from far cry 3 does that quite a bit, but it’s so loving well acted and choreographed with the poo poo going on in the background that it just all works amazingly well. https://youtu.be/rKMMCPeiQoc
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Apr 3, 2018 15:57
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The dumbest thing about the ending IMO besides the obvious "this game is by ubisoft who will make more sequels" aspect is the lack of explanation for why any country would launch nukes at the US out of the blue for no reason; if they want a "john is vindicated" ending they could have at least hinted at it possibly happening, but as-is you could replace the nuke with an alien invasion, or a zombie virus, or godzilla. It guarantees that the player isn't going to believe it actually happened (especially since you know, the entire game is about Them Crazy Drugs) Between WD2 and FC5 I wonder if Ubisoft will ever realize that they cant hedge every single bet ever if they want a Topical And Thought Provoking Game.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:00
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Neurolimal posted:The dumbest thing about the ending IMO besides the obvious "this game is by ubisoft who will make more sequels" aspect is the lack of explanation for why any country would launch nukes at the US out of the blue for no reason;  To the people that start wars the most impossible to imagine scenario is one where peace is possible. Sorry if this sound philosophical or deep or other poo poo.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:08
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Neurolimal posted:The dumbest thing about the ending IMO besides the obvious "this game is by ubisoft who will make more sequels" aspect is the lack of explanation for why any country would launch nukes at the US out of the blue for no reason; if they want a "john is vindicated" ending they could have at least hinted at it possibly happening, but as-is you could replace the nuke with an alien invasion, or a zombie virus, or godzilla. It guarantees that the player isn't going to believe it actually happened (especially since you know, the entire game is about Them Crazy Drugs) I can think of quite a few good and just and moral reasons to do it and hell, I live here.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:12
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Neurolimal posted:The dumbest thing about the ending IMO besides the obvious "this game is by ubisoft who will make more sequels" aspect is the lack of explanation for why any country would launch nukes at the US out of the blue for no reason; if they want a "john is vindicated" ending they could have at least hinted at it possibly happening, but as-is you could replace the nuke with an alien invasion, or a zombie virus, or godzilla. It guarantees that the player isn't going to believe it actually happened (especially since you know, the entire game is about Them Crazy Drugs) Oh they do that. Through the radio broadcasts you get while in cars, you have to destroy the radio blockers in the side quest for the ending to make any sense. The radio broadcasts say Trump declares war on North Korea around the end of the first zone/early second. China and Russia get involved by the end of the second. Europe gets involved by the beginning of the third. It becomes a ground war across Europe that Trump isn't sending troops to by the middle of the third zone. By the time you are heading to Joseph, DC is being evacuated and Trump is being moved to a bunker. It's just all hidden completely hidden behind a side quest and something you have no idea you were supposed to be listening to.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:13
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What? Where is this side quest. Holy lol. I did the story quest to destroy the two radio blocker towers and the mobile van. Was that it?
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Apr 3, 2018 16:16
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Rookersh posted:Oh they do that. Which side-quest is that/where do you find it? I'd like to start getting those before I get much farther.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:16
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Tei posted:
No offense, but it really doesn't. MAD doctrine dictates all nuke-related confrontations, and there's just nothing to gain as a nuclear-armed country in irradiating another country beyond a desperation scenario (e.g invasion), as most nuclear armed countries have access to second-strike capability. Nukes are first and foremost a defensive weapon, which is the biggest reason why larger powers try to prevent smaller states from arming themselves; once armed they are subject to MAD doctrine, and it no longer becomes viable to threaten them in conventional warfare, especially with nukes. It's just not a practical option to nuke a country with access to nukes or allied with a country with nukes who is willing to retaliate on their part. It's a mexican standoff. All this is to say, as King poo poo Of Nuke Mountain the USA would be the absolute worst target to randomly nuke for no reason or gain. E: I missed those radio bits, and that resolves this particular gripe I have with the ending, so theres that. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 16:20
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Neurolimal posted:No offense, but it really doesn't. MAD doctrine dictates all nuke-related confrontations, and there's just nothing to gain as a nuclear-armed country in irradiating another country beyond a desperation scenario (e.g invasion). Nukes are first and foremost a defensive weapon, which is the biggest reason why larger powers try to prevent smaller states from arming themselves; once armed they are subject to MAD doctrine, and it no longer becomes viable to threaten them in conventional warfare. Lol
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Apr 3, 2018 16:22
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Neurolimal posted:No offense, but it really doesn't. MAD doctrine dictates all nuke-related confrontations, and there's just nothing to gain as a nuclear-armed country in irradiating another country beyond a desperation scenario (e.g invasion). Nukes are first and foremost a defensive weapon, which is the biggest reason why larger powers try to prevent smaller states from arming themselves; once armed they are subject to MAD doctrine, and it no longer becomes viable to threaten them in conventional warfare. Hey!. I am usually wrong at this things and have a naive opinion. What I can also say is that the places where power is concentrated are also filled with nasty personalities: ego fueled personalities (narcissist), sociopaths (people that have not problem having other people suffering for personal gains), alpha males with a alpha male complex (they can't accept a opinion that is not his opinion because that will make them seems weak ). Logic don't apply with this subtypes of people.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:26
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Blind Rasputin posted:What? Where is this side quest. Holy lol. I did the story quest to destroy the two radio blocker towers and the mobile van. Was that it? Yup. Do that quest, then sit in your car for 20-30 minutes to get all the radio reports before taking on Joseph and you'll understand the ending better. I'm not joking you. You have to wait for the radio reports still, so you have to hang around and just kind of play dick off for a solid 20-30 minutes to get some radio reports in. e: Also it's not a Bliss Dream. A whole bunch of journos have asked Ubisoft the gently caress they were thinking, and Ubisofts response was "ah you didn't listen to the radio right. Don't worry they explain it.". Rookersh fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 16:28
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Neurolimal posted:Between WD2 and FC5 I wonder if Ubisoft will ever realize that they cant hedge every single bet ever if they want a Topical And Thought Provoking Game. While I'd LOVE a Ubisoft game that has something powerful to say, it will never happen. The reason they have the resources to make fantastic worlds it precisely because they say nothing with them to avoid alienating any segment of people who can keep funding their team of people who can churn out fantastic worlds and have so much potential. It's an incredibly sad commentary on corporatism on its own. You could make a game about that, but it would have to be indie.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:30
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Tei posted:Hey!. While that's true, a nuclear-equipped country is nearly guaranteed to have multiple levels of fail-safes for actually executing on the nuclear options. Obviously we aren't privy to the inner workings of the North Korean government but I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Kim had the final say-so on firing nuclear bombs. It's much harder to get multiple people together who are all ok with the idea of guaranteed annihilation. That said, the idea of non-state entities having access to nuclear weapons is much scarier.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:32
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It's completely insane and hosed up to me that Ubisoft made a game with bad writing and no distinct perspective.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:32
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Tei posted:Hey!. I wont pretend to know everything, so feel free to disagree with me. I obviously cant speak to the protocols of every country with nuclear armaments, but at least in the majority of western countries there exists a chain of rational actors, who must be willing to fire the nuke. Even in the most basic scenario you have the President, who orders the DoD, who orders the general that oversees the maintenance and defense of the nukes, who orders their unit to fire the missile. This kind of chain has actually protected us in the past quite a few times, usually when a radar malfunctions and says "yo theres a million missiles coming at us, we're all going to die". As it turns out unleashing nuclear apocalypse is something that weighs heavily even on the most indoctrinated of souls. Which, of course, is why you see such boisterous language between nuke-armed countries; it's basically saying "dont come at me! I'm real crazy! We're real crazy! We'll fire if you fire, we dont loving care!" but again, this is just my take, and knowing that the game at least provides some context with the war-on-NK to make the ending a bit more believable quells most of my griping. They could have stood to make it a bit more obvious, though.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:32
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Crappy Jack posted:...instead of remembering that they're writing for a video game, and stuff that might work in a book or movie doesn't work in an interactive medium... Not only having captured the one person who is dismantling your entire plan consistently and steadily, but having captured them NINE times only to monologue at them and for them to get away doesn't work in any medium.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:33
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The obvious solution would have been to reuse the twist from FC1 and just have the cult turn into crazy experiment monsters. There's your apocalyptic scenario that also allows you to ramp up the gameplay for the final act. Make the player familiar with the game map, then blow up a bunch of it and fill the rest with monsters. And unlike FC1 you wouldn't have to just abandon your core gameplay. Ubisoft call me or just send me money.
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Apr 3, 2018 16:34
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