Amethyst posted:TLJ is Orphan Discovers she's just an orphan, and needs to find strength by herself within that identity. Not really, because the literal fabric of the universe empowered her to fight Kylo Ren. Almost like some kind of... Chosen One.
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Apr 5, 2018 08:22
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Milky Moor posted:Not really, because the literal fabric of the universe empowered her to fight Kylo Ren. Anakin really sucks at this Chosen One gig. First he joins the bad guys and then when he finally redeems himself and does his job it turns out to not matter because the Empire and Dark Side just took back everything. He might as well have let Luke fry for all the good it did anyone.
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Apr 5, 2018 08:54
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All I know is I'm going to be rolling my eyes hard when the 3rd movie completes with the fact that light and dark are both wrong and the truth is in the middle. Its such a dumb message and direction for Star Wars. Its a fantasy film about good and evil, to say the ultimate truth is a middle ground of "actually don't just be a good person you need some selfishness and evil in ya' bro" is asinine. Its not the wire, its a god drat pulp cowboy samurai film about wizards and knights fighting evil. Thats the other thing I think I dislike about the new films, they're cargo cult star wars. They're not made by people with the same influences and desires and inspirations as Lucas had, they're just a second generation copy of that without a love for what inspired it all to begin with.
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Apr 5, 2018 12:06
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Tom Guycot posted:Thats the other thing I think I dislike about the new films, they're cargo cult star wars. They're not made by people with the same influences and desires and inspirations as Lucas had, they're just a second generation copy of that without a love for what inspired it all to begin with. We’re talking about Star Wars here not the Simpsons come on now
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Apr 5, 2018 13:09
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Rey's dad is BoShek
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Apr 5, 2018 13:21
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You are getting mad at a movie before it’s released.
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Apr 5, 2018 13:38
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I figure if I'm proactive about it I can get it out of my system early. 
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Apr 5, 2018 14:12
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Spacebump posted:A Vader movie set between 3 and 4 would be cool. He could hunt down Jedi. They could get really creative/fun and make it like a horror movie with Vader as the killer. i have found a flaw in this plan Spacebump posted:creative/fun
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Apr 5, 2018 14:14
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we had a loving Vader movie it was called Episodes I-III
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Apr 5, 2018 14:43
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Tom Guycot posted:All I know is I'm going to be rolling my eyes hard when the 3rd movie completes with the fact that light and dark are both wrong and the truth is in the middle. This can work, I think, if the point isn't that "the truth is in the middle" but rather that power is, itself, a corrupting influence. I mean, that's some pretty well-trodden ground in fantasy and science fiction by this point--it's like the whole thing with the One Ring, after all--but it at least would feel more satisfying than "actually you shouldn't be good or evil." Dark-side Force users like the Sith are defined by their abuse of power for selfish reasons. But light-side Force users like the Jedi aren't free from it either. Their complacency and arrogance came about because of the power they held. Maybe the Force was never meant to be "used" by mortals at all and the more they use it, the more chaotic and unbalanced it grows. Of course, the ending of TLJ doesn't exactly lead into that, what with the instinctual Force-grab being portrayed as this magical, triumphant moment, but hey.
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Apr 5, 2018 14:50
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Count me in as one of those who thinks Kylo was just insulting Rey and spouting some bullshit. Same as saying you hosed someones mom/dad/etc.
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Apr 5, 2018 15:02
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Harrow posted:This can work, I think, if the point isn't that "the truth is in the middle" but rather that power is, itself, a corrupting influence. I mean, that's some pretty well-trodden ground in fantasy and science fiction by this point--it's like the whole thing with the One Ring, after all--but it at least would feel more satisfying than "actually you shouldn't be good or evil." The Jedi order being flawed has always been a fine point to me, poetic that they became fat, lazy, and complacent. The whole prequel trilogy showed that well at least, Yoda even blatantly says maybe they misread the prophecy. So thats all cool, I have no problem with that, but the idea of light and dark side was always a basic fantasy thing of good and evil. The dark side was seductive, selfish, greedy for power, quick and dirty, everything negative, the light was, well everything good with the force, and good in human nature. They've heavily been implying in the different properties at this idea that not the jedi order, but good/evil themselves are flawed and there should be a grey in the middle. Thats the part I think does a disservice to the fairy tale nature of the original story, its blatantly saying "Actually, good is bad, you need some bad in you to actually be good.". Saying you need both halves of the coin for "harmony" or something sounds nice at a glance, except when you realize it's really saying being good is for dummies who don't know better. Maybe they won't, but with all the grey stuff in that rebels cartoon, and all the emphasis on the darkness inside Rey, I feel like they're full steam to do something that dumb. Sometimes good guys being good is a nice thing in a story. Not everything has to be shades of grey.
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Apr 5, 2018 15:09
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One thing I thought was interesting was that "light side of the Force" was never mentioned in the movies until Snoke mentioned it in TFA. Before that it was "the Force and its dark side" more often than "the light and dark sides of the Force". I remember Lucas saying that his interpretation was that "bringing balance to the Force" did mean "destroying the Sith" because the Sith (and the dark side more generally) were the reason it wasn't in balance.
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Apr 5, 2018 15:24
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I mean, I'm okay with balance so far as going 'Hey, maybe attachments aren't all bad.' When it turns into 'No. You NEED nazi space wizards' it hurts my head.
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Apr 5, 2018 15:25
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I think you could have Jedi, but you probably don't need the Jedi Order, though.
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Apr 5, 2018 15:26
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The idea that Episode IX will go full into "grey Jedi" bullshit is not really supported by The Last Jedi. Kylo Ren and Snoke's use of the dark side is never presented as anything but a bad thing, and as much as the movie criticised the Jedi... in Luke's final words he literally says "I am not the last Jedi."
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Apr 5, 2018 15:46
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Vintersorg posted:Count me in as one of those who thinks Kylo was just insulting Rey and spouting some bullshit. Same as saying you hosed someones mom/dad/etc. He's supposed to be in his late 20s in TLJ. I think it's a bit too old to drop yo momma jokes That said, yea I guess he could be bullshitting. It would depend on how it's dealt with though as to whether or not it's loving awful.
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Apr 5, 2018 16:45
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I didn’t know there was rules for jokes!
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Apr 5, 2018 16:50
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euphronius posted:I didn’t know there was rules for jokes! People don't understand why things are funny. Hard consonants are funny. Blah blah blah in a Chevy or Blah blah blah in a Maxima is not funny. Buick is funny, and the fact that he wasn't in a Buick is the -- I'm a comedy genius.
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Apr 5, 2018 17:04
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BarronsArtGallery posted:He's supposed to be in his late 20s in TLJ. I think it's a bit too old to drop yo momma jokes The whole point of the character is that he's immature Edit: quoted the wrong post Jewel Repetition fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 17:28
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BarronsArtGallery posted:we had a loving Vader movie *internet whines* That's not how I wanted Vader!
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Apr 5, 2018 18:26
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Tom Guycot posted:All I know is I'm going to be rolling my eyes hard when the 3rd movie completes with the fact that light and dark are both wrong and the truth is in the middle. Maybe I'm on my own but I've come to interpret it like the intentions Bruce Lee had for Jeet Kune Do... "Using no way as a way, having no limitation as limitation" and, also, question what you learn (which was counter to what traditional martial arts teacher taught, in my understanding).
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Apr 5, 2018 20:32
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Vintersorg posted:Count me in as one of those who thinks Kylo was just insulting Rey and spouting some bullshit. Same as saying you hosed someones mom/dad/etc. That's definitely not how it was intended but that's how JJ is going to interpret it.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:55
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kidkissinger posted:That's definitely not how it was intended but that's how JJ is going to interpret it. I think so too. Let’s see what happens tho.
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Apr 5, 2018 20:56
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But Rey's the one saying they were nobody. How would JJ retcon that? edit: Has anyone addressed yet how potentially awkward it might be to dredge up the parentage stuff again in IX? Or are people just pretending like TLJ didn't obviously resolve it (at least in regards to Rey's personal arc)? Cross-Section fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 20:58
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Dark side implanted memories. She sees a Jedi therapist and the truth is revealed. She is jar jars daughter.
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Apr 5, 2018 21:05
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Davros1 posted:*internet whines* That's not how I wanted Vader! At least we have TCW to run in the wounds And the two Vader comic series And the main Marvel series (briefly, anyway) And again briefly in Rebels...
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Apr 5, 2018 21:09
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Vintersorg posted:Count me in as one of those who thinks Kylo was just insulting Rey and spouting some bullshit. Same as saying you hosed someones mom/dad/etc. Kylo Ren : Rey, I know something about your parents. Rey: Oh really?! Do tell Kylo Ren They were junk dealers. Nobodies from no where. Also, I hosed them. I had sex with both of them Rey: ...What is your deal?!
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Apr 6, 2018 01:54
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euphronius posted:I didn’t know there was rules for jokes! It wasn't a drat joke.
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Apr 6, 2018 05:13
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BarronsArtGallery posted:It wasn't a drat joke. That explains a lot
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Apr 6, 2018 05:15
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Wheat Loaf posted:One thing I thought was interesting was that "light side of the Force" was never mentioned in the movies until Snoke mentioned it in TFA. Before that it was "the Force and its dark side" more often than "the light and dark sides of the Force". A small, but important detail: I don't think they ever mention "the light side of the Force," just "the light."
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Apr 6, 2018 08:16
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Hodgepodge posted:A small, but important detail: I don't think they ever mention "the light side of the Force," just "the light." Snoke's line in TFA is what I'm thinking of: "There's been an awakening. Have you felt it? The dark side... and the light." I felt like you can infer "light side" from that, but maybe I'm being disingenuous. Maybe Luke saying he can turn Darth Vader back to "the good side" implies the same thing. Regardless, I remember one Episode II tie-in book (not a novel or anything; it was one of those reference books that had a mixture of in-universe content and behind-the-scenes information) mentioning "the Force and its dark side" and that's stuck with me since.
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Apr 6, 2018 08:52
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Wheat Loaf posted:Snoke's line in TFA is what I'm thinking of: "There's been an awakening. Have you felt it? The dark side... and the light." I felt like you can infer "light side" from that, but maybe I'm being disingenuous. Maybe Luke saying he can turn Darth Vader back to "the good side" implies the same thing. There's nothing particularly wrong with your reasoning. Even from the existence of a "dark side," it makes sense to infer that there is a "light side" in some sense. My point is just that the series is still avoiding using that precise term, even while explicitly talking about "the light." I suppose that if you talk about a dark side and a light side, that implies that the totality is divided between the two. Whereas with "the Force and its dark side," the dark side is a distinct portion, but does not necessarily define the whole as divided between it and its hypothetical opposite. Now there is also a "light," but it is not localized as an opposing "side." That might be an important point, since one may speak of a light in the darkness and so forth. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Apr 6, 2018 |
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Apr 6, 2018 09:05
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I think splitting the Force into a discrete dark side and a light side suggests that neither of them can ever really win, because they're both essential parts of it. As I mentioned before, I recall Lucas once said that in his view (granted, not necessarily better than anyone else's), the way Anakin was going to bring balance to the Force was by destroying the Sith and that the Jedi are supposed to be servants of the balance rather than the light.
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Apr 6, 2018 09:16
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think splitting the Force into a discrete dark side and a light side suggests that neither of them can ever really win, because they're both essential parts of it. As I mentioned before, I recall Lucas once said that in his view (granted, not necessarily better than anyone else's), the way Anakin was going to bring balance to the Force was by destroying the Sith and that the Jedi are supposed to be servants of the balance rather than the light. I think the point of avoiding mention of a "light side" is to avoid depicting the Force in this way. To see how this might be misleading, think of the Moon. It has, of course, a dark side, and we might think of the light side at the familiar side which faces us. It then becomes easy to think of the Moon as divided into a dark and light side. However, only the surface of the Moon reflects light from the Sun, and three dimensional objects literally have a two-dimensional surface. So this is quite literally a two-dimensional, surface understanding of the Moon. Meanwhile, the light of the Moon as we speak of it is not really localized on the side which reflects it at all, but is rather located whereever it is reflected to (ie, here on Earth) and that light is not its own in the first place (its source being the Sun). So while the existence of a dark side of the Moon is useful to understand in itself, the inferences one would tend to make from this fact tell you very little about the nature of the Moon.
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Apr 6, 2018 09:30
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I think the force was never a two sides issue where there needs to be balance, I always saw, and the original movies pretty much state this, that the Dark side is in a way just explaining that you can get great power cheaply and easily by succumbing to greed, hate, selfishness, and every base instinct. The force was just a power, but to be a good person and harness that power was harder to do so the easy way and letting loose was a tempting thing. Basically a message of "being good in the face of temptation takes hard work". Saying any of those dark and horrible traits within us should not be something to overcome and resist, but something an enlightened person should embrace feels like a lousy message in a Fairy Tale. I would even say the prequels show this, that the Jedi order had gotten lax in fighting those things which are bad due to a giant bureaucracy and a sense of entitlement as absolute judges of power. All their talk about no attachments isn't a 'light side' thing, its just twisted Jedi rules over the centuries. Arguably its their stubborn resistance to any attachment that brings them down, as they turned not being crippled and controlled by attachments into a perverse and easy isolation from anyone you love. Something I would argue is a negative trait, something bad and unhealthy, and decidedly on the dark side. It is the Jedi order then, that I would argue WAS grey, and thus fell because of the darkness they allowed to seep in and take hold. Yoda and Obiwan both tell Luke in the originals this same message basically, that he should abandon his friends and any ideas of saving his father and just study. He ignores this though and saves his father, because of his attachment, yet not succumbing to being so controlled by it that he slaughters a village full of children for example. Hes truely a "light side" Jedi, embodying everything good like a proper Fairy Tale hero. Theres no grey to that, no dark to that, nothing in him accepting cruel and negative aspects of human nature. Tom Guycot fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Apr 6, 2018 |
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Apr 6, 2018 10:15
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Rey has no clear idea who her parents were. Kylo probably has no idea who her parents were but might want to gently caress with her. Snoke probably knew but he had no reason to be honest and definitely wanted to gently caress with her. Luke might have known but he wanted her to stop thinking about that stuff and leave. Maybe they really were "nobody," but I see no reason to trust that answer.
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Apr 6, 2018 13:56
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FuturePastNow posted:Rey has no clear idea who her parents were. Kylo probably has no idea who her parents were but might want to gently caress with her. Snoke probably knew but he had no reason to be honest and definitely wanted to gently caress with her. Luke might have known but he wanted her to stop thinking about that stuff and leave. Yeah, I'm, like, 99% sure they'll leave it at this now, but he's not a trustworthy source. He would have no way of knowing her parents were nobodies, he just knows she's afraid it's true and is afraid to admit it. He tells her that while trying to manipulate her to join him. "You're nobody in this. You could be somebody if you joined me." (Not a quote, just basically what he was saying.) They probably are nobodies, and she thinks this is true because it probably is true. But that doesn't mean Kylo actually "revealed" anything to her. That's a misread of the scene.
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Apr 6, 2018 14:06
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why would kylo know anything about rey's parentage? *cue deleted scene of kylo furiously typing search terms into ancestry.com*
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Apr 6, 2018 14:06
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The more I read from Rian Johnson and the behind the scenes stuff, the more I think he was loving way too talented to have a go at Star Wars. Honestly the nerd hate about the direction he wrote Luke to go in is going to be viewed as essential years down the road because anything else would be expected, especially given the poo poo being put out by the MCU nowadays. http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-fate/ Rian Johnson posted:If you look at any classic hero’s myth that is actually worth its salt, at the beginning of the hero’s journey, like with King Arthur, he pulls the sword from the stone and he’s ascendant — he has setbacks but he unites all the kingdoms. But then if you keep reading, when it deals with the hero’s life as they get into middle-age and beyond, it always starts to get into darker places. And there’s a reason for that: It’s because myths are not made to sell action figures; myths are made to reflect the most difficult transitions we go through in life.
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Apr 6, 2018 14:21
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