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evilweasel posted:the genocide of the native americans is basically an unspeakable crime and one that doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. the reason it's not being brought up much though in this discussion is that nobody defends it but it's also not really part of the modern american empire (which is mostly a post-WWI thing, long after the native genocide was complete), which is the subject of the current discussion. The really hosed up part of why no one talks about the Native American genocide is that it well, worked. There's not a lot of Native Americans left and their culture/traditions have been absolutely destroyed by us. People talk about the Holocaust, Holodomor, Armenian Genocide, etc. far more because there's way more people who lived through it to remind people that it happened and/or the groups committing it didn't win out in the long run so their adversaries were more apt to play up their crimes.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:39
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axeil posted:Compared to straight up invading/annexing places it sure is Invading places like Iraq or Panama, you mean? And what is the cut off point so that things like the Mexican American war, the Phillipines, etc. don't count anymore? And I wouldn't say that, say, giving assassination lists to Suharto or providing cover to Saudi Arabia is soft in any way. Not to mention that to the extent the US doesn't annex countries anymore, it's because the US is so overwhelmingly more powerful than any other country on earth that they don't have to incur the price of running a place. It's cheaper to throw a few bucks so that Pinochet will kill all leftists in Chile than it is to actually detach armed forces there. Torture, gang rapes, targeted killings are all wrong. As a citizen of the US I obviously have more power to do something about it than, say, about China. Any argument that then becomes "but X country did it worse" is irrelevant and a red herring.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:39
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theflyingorc posted:It is important that we hang the US for everything it has done in it's entire history, whereas, conveniently, Russia and China only started doing bad things recently, and didn't exist at all before WW1 Poor Innocent Russia has only existed for about twenty years.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:39
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Katt posted:To be fair. As a European. In my opinion. Would you say it's a land of contrasts?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:39
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this is the dumbest, most pointless discussion we've had here in a long time.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:40
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botany posted:this is the dumbest, most pointless discussion we've had here in a long time. Tankies gonna tank
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Apr 5, 2018 18:40
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botany posted:this is the dumbest, most pointless discussion we've had here in a long time. 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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Vladimir Putin posted:How about the time the continent of Europe was so awful, cruel, and stupid that they started a massive war that pulled in the whole world and killed millions of people needlessly. Then a couple of years they repeated it again. What that wrong? Should they not have done that?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Lol Dems are +10 on the Generic Ballot in Nevada. Dean Heller should just quit now because he’s an utterly dead man waking. Are there any good House pickup opportunities in Nevada? 3 of 4 are already Democrats. One of the Ds isn't running for re-election (ein sexmonster) in a district that's D+3. Another Democratic district is R+2. The third is D+15. The only Republican-held district is Dean Heller's old one, which is R+7.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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China has been around for thousands of years, but luckily, as a Westerner, I don't know any of that history whatsoever before 1950, so I'll just assume that this history contains literally 0 genocides
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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I'm not a tankie or even a Stalin apologist?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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VitalSigns posted:It's funny how unlike every other empire, the US gets a "mulligan" on genocide because it happened so long ago get over gosh. The "american empire" is a post WW1 distinction used to describe America's place as a global hegemon. America in the 1820s was a backwater country with no global influence and barely any over its neighbors.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:41
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Taerkar posted:Poor Innocent Russia has only existed for about twenty years. Notice how US propaganda has been so successful that anyone who says "hey the US should stop being a murderous empire" is immediately suspected of being a foreign agent idolizing Putin or whatever.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:42
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Katt posted:To be fair. As a European. In my opinion. American Exceptionalism cuts both ways. On the one hand you have "America can do no wrong, ergo everything it does is right" but you also have "American can do no wrong...and did wrong? What the gently caress America, live up to your stated ideals you hypocrit!" Most other empires' citizens/leaders weren't as willing to hold themselves to their stated ideals (see: Soviet Socialist Republics, Union of)
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Apr 5, 2018 18:42
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botany posted:this is the dumbest, most pointless discussion we've had here in a long time. Yeah, but on the other hand, it's brought up some topics that don't normally get a light shined on it. So that's cool 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:42
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VitalSigns posted:It's funny how unlike every other empire, the US gets a "mulligan" on genocide because it happened so long ago get over gosh. don't respond to posts not specifically directed at you because your withered, trump-quality brain is not capable of figuring out the context of the discussion you useless idiot and it just leads to idiot posts like this one that have a wild idiot (you) making wildly idiotic claims about posts you didn't understand but decided mean something your pea-sized brain could vaugely comprehend the post was about what (intelligent, meaning not-you) people would find most relevant to a particular discussion. indeed, even you implicitly accepted it several times when talking about how we should talk about deaths that can be attributed to the united states in the twentieth century
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Apr 5, 2018 18:42
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Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. it got mentioned multiple times particularly in comparison to the holodomor
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Apr 5, 2018 18:42
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botany posted:is there a good write-up about china and IP theft? i'd like to read up on it before i trust my half-assed gut instinct on the issue. From a few pages back, but the short answer is there isn't, because the problem is so comically huge. Name a field of interest, and China is doing something to steal from it. As an example I happen to know: There are Chinese printing houses and factories that decided to use dead time on the presses to manufacture board games. To find out what board games would sell best, they would go on Amazon or Ali Baba with a new account, list a few hundred different board games at roughly 40% of their market price, and see which ones sold best. None of these games were actually available for sale, and the account would be deleted and the orders refunded, but it's a cheap and effective way to see which games sell on discount fastest. Then they'd use dead time on the press to print out royalty free copies of existing board games, and sell at the kind of prices you can only hit if you don't have to pay designers, advertisers, or artists. Apparently Asmodee is worried this will literally bankrupt them--not only are they losing tons of sales, but these are poo poo copies, so Amazon is filling with 1 or 2 star reviews of their games, complaining that they're cheaply made, are missing parts, and use shoddy materials. For a small company that relies on a reputation of making high quality, fancy products, this is poison. And what Asmodee can do about it is, basically, nothing.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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In the industry where I worked before the rule of thumb was "Anything you contract out to a Chinese Factory will be ripped off in less than a half a year".joepinetree posted:And what is the cut off point so that things like the Mexican American war, I keep on trying to give Texas back to Mexico but they won't take it. They keep on saying something about me needing a receipt. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:it got mentioned multiple times particularly in comparison to the holodomor Yeah 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The "american empire" is a post WW1 distinction used to describe America's place as a global hegemon. America in the 1820s was a backwater country with no global influence and barely any over its neighbors. China would be good because America eliminated the Native Americans in the 1800s. whereas the Dzungar genocide was in the 1750s, so long ago, basically never happened
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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Marijuana posted:Sorry, I guess I should have said, "invaded with plans to permanently occupy those countries with mercenary armies." Describing anything associated with either the Iraq or Afghanistan invasion as a long term plan to do anything would be overstating the case a fair bit 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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Taerkar posted:Doesn't a fair amount of the Chinese 'Foreign Investment' into Sub-Sahara Africa basically amount to resource extraction? They're extracting more than just resources! https://qz.com/1192493/china-spied-on-african-union-headquarters-for-five-years/ quote:The hack wasn’t detected until Jan. 2017 when technicians noticed that between midnight and 2 am every night, there was a peak in data usage even though the building was empty. After investigating, it was found that the continental organization’s confidential data was being copied on to servers in Shanghai.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:43
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Spun Dog posted:Tankies gonna tank Lol i'm literally arguing that Liberal's recent ('recent') cheer leading of State security forces is super gross but I guess that somehow makes me a Tankie??
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Apr 5, 2018 18:44
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WoodrowSkillson posted:The "american empire" is a post WW1 distinction used to describe America's place as a global hegemon. America in the 1820s was a backwater country with no global influence and barely any over its neighbors. The conquest of the west was absolutely an imperial project with the goal of exterminating the inhabitants and resettling the conquered land (like Nazi Germany's plan for the East) rather than by installing an administration and extracting wealth from the inhabitants as had become more customary in contemporary empires. theflyingorc posted:China has been around for thousands of years, but luckily, as a Westerner, I don't know any of that history whatsoever before 1950, so I'll just assume that this history contains literally 0 genocides Clearly if you oppose American empire, you must be a secret agent of the Manchu throne.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:45
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evilweasel posted:yeah but the communists (local and in the ussr) were busy telling the world that all those stories of a famine in the ukraine were a complete lie, so it's a little hard to shift the blame to the capitalists on that one It's hard for me to say, either, but it was at least well-known enough for a certain NY times columnist to publish denials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty#The_Holodomor_(1932-1933)_and_the_1938_Moscow_Show_Trials
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Apr 5, 2018 18:45
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axeil posted:The really hosed up part of why no one talks about the Native American genocide is that it well, worked. There's not a lot of Native Americans left and their culture/traditions have been absolutely destroyed by us. Yeah, it was probably the worst and most effective genocide in history. An entire continent was depopulated and replaced. It was an unspeakable crime and people mostly forget about it because there's so few people left to speak about it.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:46
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evilweasel posted:You've gotta get him to sign it before people can get to him though, that's basically what Dems tried on DACA and got agreement right up until Miller was the last person to talk to him. He's so ignorant that you can't fool him for long because he doesn't remember things long enough. Sure, I'm just saying that there is a possibility to get progressive legislation signed that is there only because Trump is Trump. Even if it only works one in ten times that's still more than you'd get with a competent GOP President who has their own actual consistent political positions.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:46
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Taerkar posted:The Indians were mostly handled by the British and Spanish beforehand, it's why the slave trade boomed. The Trail of Tears of course is entirely on the US (And of course Jackson. gently caress Jackson) I've said this before but I am descended from a close relative of Winfield Scott, whose involvement with the Trail of Tears was... complicated. He oversaw the biggest chunk of it, but rode along with them and also prevented a good number of extra potential deaths (by requisitioning extra supplies and, more importantly, delaying until after the height of the summer). If he hadn't taken the post someone who cared less about native lives almost certainly would have, and resigning over it wouldn't have done an awful lot.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:47
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Riatsala posted:Chattanooga (er, Hamilton County) going red was what convinced me to move to a blue state. I realized that even in my weird little progressive city I was outnumbered and that made me profoundly uncomfortable about living in the south. I imagine "The Great War Against Northern Aggression" area didn't help much
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Apr 5, 2018 18:47
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Lol i'm literally arguing that Liberal's recent ('recent') cheer leading of State security forces is super gross but I guess that somehow makes me a Tankie?? That was more directed at the Greenwald/Russia cheerleaders, but I can be a jerk to you too if you give me a minute.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:47
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VitalSigns posted:Clearly if you oppose American empire, you must be a secret agent of the Manchu throne.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:48
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axeil posted:The really hosed up part of why no one talks about the Native American genocide is that it well, worked. There's not a lot of Native Americans left and their culture/traditions have been absolutely destroyed by us. That it was also done mostly before there was anything like film or video helped as well. The Holocaust has videos from the camps at the time of liberation and of the facilities there. The Holodomor has at least some pictures of the people and the areas before to compare to. Most of the Native Americans were gone, and a lot of them were gone before the Europeans penetrated inland far enough (at least non-Caribbean). Disease did a lot to enhance the genocide.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:49
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A Wheezy Steampunk posted:They're extracting more than just resources! I love that story. 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Can't believe I missed the cool Satan page and it was clogged up with stupid bullshit from idiots smdh TBF without it we'd never have made it to cool Satan page without that poo poo.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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paperwind posted:If the developer had any balls they'd permaban every one of those chuds. That's what I was thinking. From what I know of any MMORPG developer, "in game Nazi rally" seems to me to be about the second fastest way to get yourself permabanned (second only to buying something and doing a chargeback).
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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evilweasel posted:don't respond to posts not specifically directed at you because your withered, trump-quality brain is not capable of figuring out the context of the discussion you useless idiot and it just leads to idiot posts like this one that have a wild idiot (you) making wildly idiotic claims about posts you didn't understand but decided mean something your pea-sized brain could vaugely comprehend I actually don't think that's the most relevant, I merely said that even if you limit the discussion to 20th Century American atrocities you're still talking about millions and millions of deaths. Excusing the US's nineteenth-century genocides during its westward conquests is of course completely ridiculous and only done by people who are obsessed with whitewashing America's conquests but recognize that the Native American genocide is too bad even for them. Of course those same people (you) start going back to the seventeenth century or whatever bringing up British crimes to prove how benevolent America is by comparison and isn't it great it's America doing the conquering now?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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evilweasel posted:Yeah, it was probably the worst and most effective genocide in history. An entire continent was depopulated and replaced. It was an unspeakable crime and people mostly forget about it because there's so few people left to speak about it. Quite a bit of that happened to Siberia, too, and the Urals. There was a long way from Moscow to the Pacific, and it wasn't uninhabited (though probably less so than from Plymouth to Pacific, due to climate).
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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Runescape probably has like 100 guys still playing it so if they ban all the Nazis no one will be left
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Apr 5, 2018 18:50
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theflyingorc posted:Uh, you JUST SAID that we were cheating by excluding the Native American genocide when comparing??? what's the cutoff date, I'm itchin' to add up the death numbers and declare a real winner, let me know the rules I mean people are going back to Darius of Persia and Genghis Khan or whatever to find comparisons that come out favorably to America so go hog-wild
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Apr 5, 2018 18:51
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